JERUSALEM

Farmer Bob's vision:
All the Hamas fighters in Gaza throw down their weapons. Everyone who lives in Gaza, from the week-old baby in its mother's arms to the 98-year-old farmer, gets up and walks out into the street. In their hundreds of thousands, the crowds join together, swelling into a mass one and a half million strong. Together they march out of Gaza, simply surging past the Israeli checkpoints, under the eyes of the stunned Israeli soldiers, beneath the barrels of the massed Merkavas. The Apaches, hovering overhead, hold their fire. Surrounding the Israeli troops but not lifting a finger to harm them, the massed Palestinians simply sit down where they are. Apart from the crackle of radios as confused Israeli commanders plead for instructions, and the whump-whump-whump of the helicopters, the only sound is the whirring of cameras relaying the amazing images around the world.

I think that's something along the lines of what Farmer Bob has in mind. And it's a stunning, intoxicating prospect, I have to admit. If it ever happened I think Israel would indeed find that it had to deal fairly with the Palestinian question.

I think a lot of Palestinians would die in the process, however - at least at the beginning. But, leaving aside the question of likelihood or practicality, I part company with Farmer Bob for two reasons:

A) I won't insist that this is the only means the Palestinians have to solve their problem (or tell them their problems are their own damn fault if they choose a different course of action); and

B) I don't consider them "as bad as Israel" because they attempt to ward off the Israeli attacks, or try to retaliate as best they can.

and another thing...

I think that the conflict is very much a battle of hearts and minds, which in turn is a battle for information. The situation is badly misunderstood in "the West" because the media by and large present the Israeli view. I think if enough people in the US, and elsewhere, really understood how willing the Palestinians have been to negotiate before, let alone what a dire situation they're in, and - in the case of the US - how their tax dollars are being used by the Israeli forces, there would be a lot more pressure on Israel to get real about talking to the Palestinians. Misconceptions rule, and no that is not by mistake and no, that is not a goddam conspiracy theory.

So I believe that what Farmer B calls "pointless squabbling" is actually anything but. Granted this forum is probably the most idiotic and useless place for it, but hey, you fight the fights that come your way.

Nicely put and well fought
Unlike our own government. How many abstentions?

And so the indiscriminate killing goes on. Even UN aid workers and medics seem to be targets. I hope the American people soon understand just how involved their governments over the years have been in preparing the ground for this genocide. Without their vetoes there might be peace in the Middle East.

It seems Israeli is getting the job done. Lack of fighting seems to suggest some of those 'civilian' casualities were actually Hamas fighters. Afterall they dont walk around in uniform.
It will be interesting how fast this ceasefire proposal develops, with it already been agreed in priciple. If my above assumption is even slightly correct and Hamas has taken a beating peace might not be too far away.
Then again they may have all been civilians and Hamas is just waiting for the Israelis to go home before resuming the party.
It was interesting to see Israeli soldiers praying on operations...2 religious forces fighting it out....maybe peace is not so near....
People often consider isreal to be 'western' but maybe their religious zeal makes them less western than you might think.
More ramblings from me!

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If you two don't look back tomorrow at what you have just wrote and wish that you had'nt...........well, what hope is there?<!-/Quote-!>

I regret nothing. Prepare and embrace for impact. Here comes the apocalypse!

Well one thing to come out of this war is an increase in the hate directed at Israel and by default the US.
I have seen many young people of middle eastern heritage sitting watching video after video of the war in gaza. All speaking bad of the Israel and the west.
Facebook oh what joy terrosists around the world must find in facebook. Propaganda spread across the world and excepted blindly. If it fits your preconcieved views of the injustice of it all then it must be correct.
Brace yourself for the fallout. I think it might be raining suicide bombers.

The war is dumb. Isreal's Dumb. Palistine is Dumb. The U.S. is dumb. It's just so Freakin Dumb. Why is it needed? They don't even know why their fighting anymore.

1st misconception- "Isreal is victims". The only victims are the innocents who die.

2nd- Iran wants to nuke Isreal. That is just dumb. They wouldn't nuke the holliest ground on earth.

3rd- Peace is impossible. Peace is never impossible. This is nothing more than a misguided Cock and Balls contest.

4th- Kids are dieing. And everyone is pointing the finger. Both sides are guilty and it is time to be responsible.
if not, I say lets Glass the entire region. Problem solved.

America has seen plenty about Palestine.

We saw hijackings in the 70's
Kidnappings in the 80's
Suicide bombings in the 90's

And we saw the Arab hags dancing in the streets and clucking like chickens after 9/11.


All I really needed to see.

Why help the people who hate us?

Why waste my tax dollars on my enemies?

I won't dance in the streets because they are dying. But I wont shed a tear for them.

If Israel needs more of my tax dollars to knock those angry little asshats down...

I consider it a sound investment.

And it really pisses Left Wingers off.

Its win-win in my book.

I think odds are very good there's going to be an increase in terrorism around the world, and especially in Israel. Hamas has held off suicide bombing for a couple of years but Gaza could well have put an end to that.

I doubt any falloff in fighting means Israel has killed off enough Hamas fighters to turn the tide. For one thing, I bet for every Hamas fighter they've killed, the horror they've inflicted on so many innocents is going to bring that organization way more recruits.

From what we're allowed to see and understand of the operation, so far it looks to me as if Israel has surrounded and cut off the really dense urban areas for the most part, without going into them. Israel has always been really wary of taking heavy casualties, and I think they know that once they go into a Hamas area they'll start taking more losses. Not that they couldn't prevail ultimately - but it wouldn't be easy. It's hard to imagine many forms of conflict that are as difficult and brutal as urban fighting - and I bet it would tend to nullify Israel's advantage in weapons to some degree.

JB.
Have you ever wondered why they hate the USA?
Lets think about that one.
The USA helped the Zionist to destroy the agreement between Britain, the Arabs and the Jews in the 40's.
The USA supported the Zionist terrorists in the 50's.
The USA veto the worlds wishes to create peace (I advise any new comers to this thread to scroll up and read the US veto post)
The USA threaten anyone they don't agree with you with war.

Why can't the USA just stay out of it and let the rest of the world sort it out?

Oh thats right, $ and the Zionist lobbyists.

nix -

I really wouldn't bother with JB. His recent posts prove he's a certifiable racist genocidal lunatic, and also that he just enjoys trying to piss off leftists and nazis (I don't think he knows the difference).

He's not trying to make any points at all, and he's certainly immune to any kind of argumentation. More attention will just egg him on.

Although JB is the only opponent we have left, now that Farmer Bob is gone! Well, we have Vali, but he just pops up from time to time saying the exact same things.

(I think Farmer Bob won't disappear entirely...)

Its not productive to argue with zealots.

And Islam is not a race its a religion/culture. Sorry.

As to why they hate. Not important.

The ending of that hate is important. And it does not involve diplomacy or appeasement. It involves swift brutal reactions to any provacation. It requires penalizing the supporters of such acts. And it requires a military mindset not a liberal one.

Almohad, funny, I thought this was a conversation, not a competition. Apparently you've reduced it to teammates and opponents. Very well, then.

So... I see the strategy, now...

If you can't beat them on the open battlefield, conduct a terror war.

If the terror war isn't working out,
claim victory on the "forum" front.

Ah, the forums... the battlefield of last resort for every failing movement in the world.

The truth is the UN and most countries on earth recognize the state of Israel, including Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey. The PLO removed the clauses from its charter calling Israel "null and void" in 1996. Hamas has not, which is why it is isolated from the international community. Hamas keeps its grip only because of help from groups like Hezbollah and the regimes in Syria and Iran.

Naturally Arab countries are going to speak out against Israel, but at the same time they are tired of Hamas and the dragged-out Palestinian peace process. Arabs are telling Hamas to stop firing the missiles and giving the Israelis a justification for continuation of the conflict.

Perhaps the bright side in all this is that Arab countries are negotiating with Western countries at the UN to pass an acceptable resolution. Constructive Arab efforts will be required to bring a major step forward in the peace process.

Speaking of the UN, a resolution has been passed. One that the world worked on collaboratively. So quit complaining about that.

To be clear, I think many of the Israeli actions in recent years are disproportionately heavy-handed, largely ineffective, and give Israel a bad image. Perhaps they were emboldened by the Bush administration. But, despite your wrong assertions, Israel HAS taken part in discussions that would have led to a Palestinian state. They have agreed to the principle of it.

Even when Israeli politics were different and they offered Palestinians 91% of the land they wanted for a Palestinian state, Arafat walked away from the table. (That percentage IS a fact, look it up.) More than anything, it is the Palestinian leadership that has failed the Palestinian people for the past ten years. Israel, by its actions, just made it easier for Hamas to blame them.

I'm really not trying to encourage you to respond to my points, because you just respond with dismissive mockery, despite my previously polite efforts. You would score some more "points" if you occasionally held the Palestinians and Arabs to task and didn't blame Israel for everything.

However it was done, right or wrong, Israel exists and is recognized by the world. Hamas is clinging to the past. As long as it refuses to moderate, it will only perpetuate the present condition for the Palestinians.

Woo hoo! Another opponent!

Let's start with point number one: the occupation. Does Israel occupy Palestinian territory or not? Is this occupation legal or not?

Also, have the Palestinians - Hamas included - offered to negotiate with Israel on the basis of a return to 1967 borders or not? What has been Israel's response to those offers?

Do the Palestinians deserve a state of their own or not? By what rationale is that right subject to certain conditions imposed by third parties?

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What the myths ignore is, first and foremost, that Barak's offers both at Camp David and six months later at the final negotiating session at Taba, Egypt, were not generous by any objective measure. The offers went further than any previous Israeli proposal had, but, since Israel had never before put forth any proposals on the key, so-called final-status issues, this says nothing. In fact, what the supposedly generous offer would have given the Palestinians would have been a state in four pieces, three in the West Bank plus Gaza, with a capital made up of Palestinian neighborhoods not contiguous either to each other or to the rest of the state. The major Israeli settlements, housing fully 80 percent of the 200,000 West Bank settlers and 100 percent of the almost 200,000 additional settlers in East Jerusalem, would have remained in place; the 300-mile road network throughout the West Bank built to connect the settlements and accessible only to Israelis would have remained in place; the "state" left to the Palestinians would have been a mere colony of Israel -- non-viable and indefensible, without borders with any state but Israel, totally at Israel's mercy.

Jeff Halper, the Israeli anthropologist and activist who heads the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions and has extensively studied all aspects of the occupation, frequently points out that territory does not equate to sovereignty and that even a prison gives 95 percent of its space to the prisoners, while the prison walls, the cell doors, and occasional towers and other points of control constitute the controlling five percent. Under Barak's offer, the five percent (or three or ten percent) remaining in Israel's control -- made up of settlements, Israeli-only roads separating Palestinian from each other, checkpoints impeding movement, all of what Halper calls a "matrix of control" -- would have given Israel continued dominance over Palestine.<!-/Quote-!>

Kathleen Christison, "Camp David Redux," August 15, 2005

I especially like the point about the percentage of space within a prison! Don't you like that, Pesco?

Stop retailing Israeli propaganda as fact.

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Let's start with point number one: the occupation. Does Israel occupy Palestinian territory or not? Is this occupation legal or not?<!-/Quote-!>

Why should Israel give up territory gained in a war initiated by the Soviet armed Arab states?

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Also, have the Palestinians - Hamas included - offered to negotiate with Israel on the basis of a return to 1967 borders or not? What has been Israel's response to those offers?<!-/Quote-!>

How does one negotiate with a group who's charter lays out the destruction of your country in plain clear cut terms?

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Do the Palestinians deserve a state of their own or not? By what rationale is that right subject to certain conditions imposed by third parties?<!-/Quote-!>

Do the Kurds deserve their own state? Does any of the numerous Ethnic groups around the world agitating for autonomy deserve a state? Why does this issue take precedence over more pressing humanitarian issues. Sudan. Hundreds of thousands of people have died but because they are black and not a cause celibre they are not as important as terrorists reaping the fruits of their own destructive nature? Or because the people committing the genocide are Arab?

"Do the Palestinians deserve a state of their own or not? By what rationale is that right subject to certain conditions imposed by third parties?"

I'm not for this war...but isn't what you described basically "Jordan"?
I believe I heard that somewhere.

Israel does not occupy palestian land. It has occupied egyptian, jordanian, syrian and lebanese land.
Palestinian land has never existed. This is a very importnat point you fail to realise al.
Creating a palestinain land requires taking land from others. Exactly the same way Israel was created.
If the arab world so supports the idea of palestine why are they not lining up to offer them land? Why do they only offer land they have already lost to israel?

Vali:
But Israel does occupy Palestinian land. I don't understand what is so difficult about this point. The Palestinians were living on the territories now occupied by Israel. These are the people who were driven out of their homes in precisely this territory - or the descendants of those people. You choose to base your argument around whether the land was ever called "Palestine" (which it was, during the British Mandate) but that isn't the main point: they were living there and no one disputes this.

For Pete's sake, David Ben-Gurion doesn't dispute this!!! "We took their land," he said. What do the words "their" and "land" refer to?

As for other Arab states offering the Palestinians somewhere to live:
A) why should they give up part of their own territories to clean up a mess created by Israel and the West? Why should they happily embrace the expense and social upheaval of reestablishing millions of refugees on their own territories? How is this now to be made their problem?
B) what makes you so sure the Palestinians are even interested in this? What would your reaction be if you were kicked out of your homeland, and had to flee to a neighbouring state, and someone came along and said "here you go, forget your old home, it's gone - here's a brand spanking new farm where you can live from now on."? Isn't there just a small chance you'd reject the offer because you feel you've been the victim of an injustice and you damn well want your ancestral home back?

It seems completely self-contradictory to me to say the Palestinians never had a territory so they're out of luck and have no rights to return to where they used to live, and turn around and say that the Israelis, who also had no territory, now have an overriding claim to the same territory because they simply took it over. The rights you admit in one case you dismiss in the other. Doesn't make sense to me.

Unless by the law of "might makes right" - which never has, and never will, lead to a lasting peace.

Where they live is not the point I am trying to make al. The point I am making is there has never been an independent country called palestine. The palestianians have always lived in somebody elses territory.
The region is/has been known as palestine but this is a regional name not a country.
As JB pointed out earlier there are many ethnic groups who live in other countries. What makes the palestinians special in deserving a new country to be created in the same illegal way israel was?
You damn israel but want to create a new country just like it.

The palestian cause is just a play thing for iran and arab countries to use to generate artificial support for their corrupt regimes. Without the evil of isreal to blind their people, the people of these countries would not be diverted from the state of their own countries.They would direct their anger at their own governments rather than israel.
So the likes of Iran will keep suppling Hamas and Hezbollah to keep their arses out of the frying pan.
The palestians suffer so the powerfull can stay in power.
Peace will come in palestine when Iraq becomes a prosperous nation. If the rebuilding of Iraq is succesful, and the average joe becomes as weathly and free as us in the west. The people of the arab/iranian nations will demand the same.
Peace shall be with us all..........

Your a blind fool Vali open your fuckin eyes and stay away from the television.

The difference is that the Palestinians have been forcibly evicted from where they used to live and are now living as refugees in other places. The Kurds, whether or not they deserve their own state, are at least still resident on the territory that would make up such a state if it were ever formed. No one is proposing to take that territory away from them and install another nation there.

The Palestinians cannot go back as things stand, because their land has been taken, their homes demolished, and illegal settlements built over much of it.

They have the right to return. They cannot return under any circumstances but to a state of their own or, better, a state in which Jews and Palestinians live together.

In short, what difference does it make if something called Palestine ever existed? The Palestinians have a right to return to where they used to live. And that will have to be a state.


You also forget the role the US has played and continues to play in maintaining many of the undeniably corrupt and evil Arab regimes. Back in the day, Iran had a democratic, secular government. It was overthrown by the US, which initiated the rule of the Shah. The US also has a huge role in propping up the Saudi Arabian government and suppressing fundamentalism in that country. (Ironically the rulers of Saudi Arabia have many affinities with the Taliban.)

Also, a lot of Arab anger is directed at "their own" governments, as you can see now with Palestinian denunciations of Arab inaction over Gaza. If the Arab governments are trying to pose as the saviours of the Palestinians, they're doing a piss-poor job and no one seems to have been suckered, least of all the Palestinians themselves.

You point out the problems of countries interfering with other countries affairs. Yes the arabs are angry because their governments inaction. Why? Because their governments have done a good job in painting isreal as the great evil. Now their people want something done about it.
And of course the west has done there fair share of interfering and gotten their hands bitten by the dogs they fed.
I dont think many governements on both sides actually care too much about the fate of the palestians. They are pawns in a larger game.
Sacificing pawns sometimes however backfires.