JERUSALEM

Many peoples have been evicted from there homes over the years. They dont always get to move back. Just ask the native americans.
There are too many countries to list here that are 'occupied' territory.Thats life. If you are strong enough you can do something about it..if not you move!
The palestinians only strength is their ability to spread terror around the world. Without this they would just be another poor suffering people like the africans in sudan.
Palestine is in the middle of an ideological battlefield. A tough spot to be in. For them their shall be no peace in our life time.
Even if they got a state to their liking. They would still be used as pawns by others, and suffer the consequences.

The Palestinians will not give up their resistance to the injustice inflicted upon them. Ask the Native Americans - do you think we've heard the last chapter on that one? What happened to them continues to create problems today.

We're supposed to try to live in a better world than one where "might makes right." Your arguments simply bolster Israel's attempts to maintain its illegally acquired territory. On a larger scale, they help to ensure that holocausts and genocides and conquests will continue to occur.

Your attitude is hard to fathom in someone dedicated to healing the sick. It's like saying "you've got a broken leg - live with it. If I helped to fix it you'd just go break it again."

The plan was for there to be a Palestinian state in 1947. That WAS the two state solution. Israel accepted it, the Arabs didn't. This led to a war in 1948.

The West Bank was annexed by Jordan in 1950, which took steps to ensure it didn't become independent, then Israel took it in the Six Day War. Similarly, the Gaza Strip was controlled by Egypt until the Six Day War, when Israel took it. So we're to believe that from 1950-1966, the Palestinians, according to the Arab nations, had no right to a separate state. However, in 1967 this changed, and it had nothing to do with who controlled the territory.

Right... If Arabs control Palestinian lands, it's ok for them not to have a country.

If Israel controls the lands, it's an "illegal occupation".

I kind of like the idea of giving the West Bank back to Jordan and the Gaza Strip back to Egypt... let them deal with it. At least Israel has peace treaties and diplomatic relations with both of those countries.

I hereby agree to continuing this thread on Nix's continuation thread! I'll put my next post there.

In 1946, Jewish terrorists agitating for their own state in British-occupied Palestine blew up Jerusalem's King David Hotel, killing 91. Two years later, an independent Israel was established.

During the fight for Jewish statehood, extremist military groups sometimes resorted to the use of terrorist tactics. One such instance occurred in 1948 when members of the Jewish underground organization LEHI (Fighters for the Freedom of Israel) killed UN Peace Mediator Count Folke Bernadotte to protest his diplomatic efforts to modify the Palestine partition plan.

In order to create and consolidate a Jewish State in 1948, Zionists expelled 750,000 Palestinians from their homeland and never allowed them or their descendants to return. In addition, Israeli forces destroyed over 400 Palestinian villages and perpetrated about three dozen massacres.

Maybe thats why the Arabs did'nt agree to the two state solution?


Pesco.. The Arabs also did'nt force them into refugee camps and treat them like caged animals.

I knew creating a back up thread would create a problem. I guess it's like selecting a president when you already have one Which one do you use?

Moved to mk2

Oh, was that a backup thread? I thought it was a continuation thread. Which was your intent?

It was for back up.
JR started a new 5 word story game when the one we were using got to 368 posts to make sure another one did'nt get deleted. And those posts are only 5 words long.
What do you recon JR? We need to find out if the 5 word story game was deleted because of the number of posts or whether it was because of the amount of information. But saying that theres a hell of a lot more info in this thread already.
It must be the number of posts. Init.

That leaves us with 60 posts left. I suppose it's gonna depend on what happens next to whether we will use them up. We have already got through alot though and I'm sure theres gonna be more to come.
If it is down to the number of posts then I recon we should use the other one, even though this one's as it's alot easier to read.

"Pesco.. The Arabs also did'nt force them into refugee camps and treat them like caged animals. "

No, they just forced the Jews out of their countries and conquered territory. The only difference is Israel was willing to take them in, and the Arab countries were content to force the Palestinians into refugee camps. Jordan is the only country that's willing to give citizenship to Palestinian refugees. Israel has tried resettling refugees in camps in Gaza and the West Bank, but has been unable to do so, and in one case the UN even told Israel they couldn't move people out of the camp

How can you put more people into a place that's already one of the most populated and oppressed places on the earth? Maybe that's why the UN said no?

I'm referring to Jenin of course, which was destroyed in house to house fighting and rebuilt by the UN. The UN knew that rebuilding it exactly as it was would result in the exact same squalid conditions as before but decided that was the best plan.

It should be noted Jenin is already located in the West Bank

EDIT: I noticed a while ago someone talking about how unbiased the BBC is.... well, they'll have you believe that at least

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-451138/Report-BBCs-anti-Israel-bias-stay-secret.html

Watch what you write everyone(read the last bit of 'meeting log' thread) it would be a shame if any of us got banned.
OK peps, I've gotta go and win a poker game
Peace.

(This was originally posted in the "backup" thread)

Almohad, thank you for your good questions. Here are my responses:

"Let's start with point number one: the occupation. Does Israel occupy Palestinian territory or not? Is this occupation legal or not?"

In the Gaza Strip, Israel occupies lands that were occupied by Egypt when the 1967 war began. So there's a precedent for the occupation of that territory.

In the West Bank, Israel occupies lands Jordan annexed, giving West Bank residents Jordanian passports. So this wasn't even "Palestine" anymore, according to the Arabs.

"Also, have the Palestinians - Hamas included - offered to negotiate with Israel on the basis of a return to 1967 borders or not?"

The answer about Hamas is on Wikipedia: "Hamas later announced publicly an offer for a 10 year hudna or truce with Israel, should they decide to return to their 1967 borders and allow the return of all Palestinian refugees." Ok, so Israel is supposed to give up permanent claim on the West Bank and Gaza and allow Palestinians to get their old property back within Israel proper in exchange for a *temporary* truce?! From a group who still clings to the goal of Israel's destruction? Who in the world would agree to such terms?

"What has been Israel's response to those offers?"
ROTFL, I imagine. And rightfully so.

"Do the Palestinians deserve a state of their own or not?"
Yes, assuming the Palestinian state respects the sovereignty of Israel.

"By what rationale is that right subject to certain conditions imposed by third parties?"
Because Hamas has, by its own statements, said it has no inclination to recognize the right of Israel to exist.

Again, from Wikipedia: "After the establishment of Hamas government [in 2006], Dr Al-Zahar stated his 'dreams of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it...I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine (including Israel). This dream will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land'."

'Nuff said.

The question of who owned what land or what it was called is immaterial. The primary question is: are the Palestinians to be allowed to return to their homes? Call it Palestine, call it Jordan/Egypt, call it a permanent floating UN beach party where members of the security council take it in turn to supply the clams... what is not in dispute is that the Palestinians have every right to return to live in what was their home, from which they were forcibly and illegally evicted.

More to come...

Oops - are we supposed to be on nix's new thread now??

No, I think we're supposed to be here.

I feel this should be the treatment of those that lost lands in the formation of Israel:

1. For Palestinians that lived inside "Green Line" Israel and still have immediate relatives there: Allow them to return and compensate them for the lands lost. I would not give them the ability to take their old homes/lands back.

2. For all other Palestinians that lived in Israel-proper: Compensate them (or their estates) for lands and property lost, but do not allow right of return.

3. Compensate Jews (or their estates) that fled or were kicked out of Arab countries after 1948 for their land and property lost.

All Palestinians who were kicked out should have the right of return, regardless of whether or not they lived inside the Green Line.

Jews who were kicked out of neighbouring countries: an interesting question. If they want to return to where they lived they should absolutely be entitled to. Even if they don't, they're entitled to some kind of compensation for what they lost. This is an interesting question, and one that doesn't get much attention. How many are there?

If Palestinians weren't living inside the Green Line, where were they living that Israel will have control over if a Palestinian state is formed? Where else were they kicked out of by Israel?

I really do think it's impractical to allow a huge migration of Palestinians into Israel. That would be basically destroying the idea of a Jewish state. Which I know a lot of Arab states would like to do. Israel will never agree, so we potentially end up where we are... bloody stalemate. A very limited form of return may be allowed along with compensation, but I really think the right of return issue could contribute to preventing a peace accord just like it did in 2000.

Wikipedia says: "According to official Arab statistics, 856,000 Jews left their homes in Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s. Some 600,000 resettled in Israel." Of course, from this alone, it's not clear how many lost land and property. I wouldn't support a right of return for them, either.

Things have become so partisan and deadly. It's not like mixed Jewish-Arab communities really exist anymore where either side would really feel welcome as a minority. What good could come of it at this point?

I think the whole idea of a "Jewish state" (or any "...ish" state) is the problem. States shouldn't be based on race or religion in the first place.

Ultimately I think a single, secular state embracing Jews, Palestinians and whoever else, is the only viable solution. I agree it seems pretty far-fetched right now - to say the least - but I do think it will have to happen.

Jewish-Arab communities have existed in the past so at least we know it's possible. There are Jewish-Palestinian groups in Israel working for peace today. There are some hopeful signs - signs that it can be done.

As for the Jews who left Arab countries or were forced out, I bet most wouldn't want to return anyway. I think those who left under circumstances where they unwillingly lost property of any kind should have the right of compensation at least.

I'd like to know more about how the Jews of Iran are faring, and how they feel about their situation. Granted it's not a huge community, but they do seem to be allowed to practice their religion.

The capitol of the world.....I say Las Vegas. It's got violence, gambling, hotels etc.... Everything of which mankind has made and loves.

The war is a farce. A way to drive up oil and weapons prices. The innocent die. The cycle continues.

Greed= Shame


both parties are guilty. it's not who should lay down their guns.

Everyone HAS to or war will never end.

it's like to brothers punching each other.
After several rounds, they both ache and wish to stop. But both are to proud to lower his fists first wich results in insults, threats and then another salvo of punches. The end result is the same.

our arms hurt.

Lets pressure both sides to lay down their arms.
Show the Arabs your feet and the Jews your (Expletive Deleted) (Ryhmes with Sore Pins). They both suck and need to stop.
Oh, wait. We suck too. Damn.
What's wrong with the world?
Oh yeah
Lust for money
Boy do I feel sheepish. ;-P

nix001 (Golden Rainbow)
Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 02:48 am
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In 1946, Jewish terrorists agitating for their own state in British-occupied Palestine blew up Jerusalem's King David Hotel, killing 91 including women and children. Two years later, an independent Israel was established.

During the fight for Jewish statehood, extremist military groups sometimes resorted to the use of terrorist tactics. One such instance occurred in 1948 when members of the Jewish underground organization LEHI (Fighters for the Freedom of Israel) killed UN Peace Mediator Count Folke Bernadotte to protest his diplomatic efforts to modify the Palestine partition plan.

In order to create and consolidate a Jewish State in 1948, Zionists expelled 750,000 Palestinians from their homeland and never allowed them or their descendants to return. In addition, Israeli forces destroyed over 400 Palestinian villages and perpetrated about three dozen massacres.

Would you want them living next door to you?

Váli (Fearless Blue)
Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 02:58 am
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Unfortunately al the world we live in is not the world we would like to live in.
The strong rule the weak, its the way of the world.
The world is changing slowly but not fast enough.
Those of us lucky enough to live in the west probably dont realise how much the rest of the world differs from us.
Our freedoms we take for granted are very rare in other parts.
Our liberal attitudes would be laughed at in other countries.
Women, homosexuals, the right for every adult to vote, the law applying to most of us equally...still a few find their way arouind it...
access to information, the right basically to do what we like as long as we dont interfer with others.
We are very lucky. Something our too liberal friends need to remember. There are many in this world that do not respect liberalism and would take it from us given the chance.
I really do hope the palestians get their own country, but not at the price of surrendering to terrorism.
Israel is here and its staying like it or not. They need to tone down their actions but they unlike Hamas are mostly repectable.

Váli
Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 04:32 am
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Pesco are you aware a hudna is not a peace deal as such. A hudna is a peace deal whilst a muslim force is weaker than its enemy. It is designed to allow the muslim force to grow stronger until it becomes stronger than its enemy then the hudna is over.

nix001 (Golden Rainbow)
Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 05:10 am
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What? Like the agreement that Britain, the Arabs and the Jews had? It's an agreement until the Jews were strong enough to no longer agree to it?
Even after everything the Palestinians had gone through over the 20 years before hand, they still offered a peace deal. Why did Israel not accept it? It's Because all they are bothered about is building Israel. they are not bothered about peace. Infact, they probably know that if they had peace they would'nt be able to get the land to be able to build Israel into the bigger and stronger Israel the Zionists dream of. One track mind. With no concideration for others. Especialy those who get in their way.

Lets say your neighbour(Israel) robs you(Palestine) at gun point in front of your children, what are you going to do? You phone the police(UN). The police(UN) say they can't help you. Now what are you gonna do? You go next door and ask for the most important things back and say that he can keep the money. He shuts the door. Now what are you gonna do? You leave it.
Two weeks later he come around and rob you again, but this time your kid gets hurt in the struggle. Now what you gonna do? You phone the police(UN). Again the police(UN) say they can't help you. Now what? You find him and challenge him. He cuts you with a knife. What now? Again the police(UN) wont help you. What do you do now? You know he has got a gun and that he will probably use it, but if you don't do anything this could go on forever. What would you do?

Váli (Little Upsilon)
Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 01:22 pm
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I was on about the meaning of a word. Nothing else.
Hudna a word used in the koran by the prophet to describe the action of pretending peace until you are strong enough to attack.



The Grand Poobah (Golden Rainbow)
Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 01:28 pm
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The war is a farce. A way to drive up oil and weapons prices. The innocent die. The cycle continues.

Greed= Shame


both parties are guilty. it's not who should lay down their guns.

Everyone HAS to or war will never end.

it's like to brothers punching each other.
After several rounds, they both ache and wish to stop. But both are to proud to lower his fists first wich results in insults, threats and then another salvo of punches. The end result is the same.

our arms hurt.

Lets pressure both sides to lay down their arms.
Show the Arabs your feet and the Jews your (Expletive Deleted) (Ryhmes with Sore Pins). They both suck and need to stop.
Oh, wait. We suck too. Damn.
What's wrong with the world?
Oh yeah
Lust for money
Boy do I feel sheepish. ;-P

Another UN compound has been hit. The Zionists say that it was another mistake and that they don't target civilians. If shooting Artillery and Tank shells into a populated area is'nt targeting civilians then I don't know what is. Over 1000 dead and about a third are children? If they know where the fighters are why don't they send in the SF and ground troops? They have air cover, the best weapons money can buy and armour. There is no need to blitz the place. Unless they want too.

I'll tell you whats wrong with the World. USA Vetoing UN resolutions against Israel.
Scroll up about a 1/4 and you will see what I mean.