JERUSALEM

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I truly hope the British Muslims understand that most Britains are horrified at what they see in Gaza and don't class our women and children as legitimate targets.<!-/Quote-!>

Didn't they blow up subway train and a bus in London?

Keep on apologizing for Islamic ignorance and cultural brutality. The enemy is inside the gates. Now its too late. Unless mass deportations are brought back.

Are you advocating mass deportations?

Do you feel Muslims have no reason to feel aggrieved? Are you saying their religion/culture is inherently ignorant and brutal?

Now now JB AKA Sam.
Your starting to sound like the racist I F#@%ed up not so long ago for attacking my friend who told him that it was wrong to go around saying that all Blacks and Asians should be killed at birth.

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Good point too about the US needing to finally start applying some pressure to Israel. This is one of the really important points that needs to be made much more frequently. I'm not holding my breath that it will happen anytime soon, since the US Congress is pretty much a branch of the IDF, but pressure has to be applied.<!-/Quote-!>

Are you really claiming that your analysis of this conflict is based upon objective, neutral mindset and world view?

You are putting a lot of admirable effort into researching the very recent developements of this situation, while patently ignoring the effects of previous actions by both parties over generations. Persective, Perspective, Persective.

Proof incontrovertible:

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On the BBC James Zogby of the Arab American Institute said the Gaza "conflict" could be stopped tomorrow if the US simply told Israel to stop. The last president to have the balls to do that was Eisenhower. Since then, saying anything against Israeli policies is political suicide in the US.<!-/Quote-!>

The falseness of this statement is so patently obvious that it requires no effort to dispute. You forget that some of us have lived through much of this. We have seen the back and forth with our own eyes for years.

Northern Ireland, Chechnya, Yugoslavia, Sri Lanka, the list goes on and on.

Some conflicts defy the easy assignation of blame and fault. The scales of justice may balance easily in the minds of some who look no further than the immediate suface, but the real world does not conform to our opinions.

There is no rape taking place, there is a long standing dispute between political entities that will not honor their agreements, not conduct themselves within standards of acceptable international behaviors, and will place their own political objectives before the long term health of their societies. The correlation of forces is totally irrelevant to the situation. Underdog status conveys no moral superiority. Overwhelming force conveys no claim to "might makes right".

Dedicated statesmen with intelligence, education, and experience far greater than yours and mine, with access to the full resources of their national intelligence services, have worked tirelessly to assist in the settlement of this conflict for generations. They have all failed.

There are reasons for that. Your repeated oversimplifications are the hallmarks of the amateur. With all due respect to your honest efforts, you are in way over your head on this issue. We all are. The world is.

Irrational hatreds cannot be subjected to arguments of reason because they are irrational. You are utterly ignoring the human dimensions of this conflict.

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We make war that we may live in peace.<!-/Quote-!>

-Aristotle

Where is the peace that the violence on either side serves?

What? That a people have had their land taken off them, their freedoms removed and their children killed?
What rationality can come from that?
Can you explain to us what you mean by human dimensions.

yes nix. Israeli and Palestinean, alike, can ask that question.

What land and freedoms have the Israelies lost?
How many Israelies have lost a child or their entire family?
I've seen the graves of the Palistinians. An old Palistinian soldier took me there. Tourists wont see them as they are off the tourist trail. Unlike the Jewish graves which are in full view of the tourists. Graves of entire Palistinian families, killed all at once. How can anyone come back from that?

Does it matter if it was a child? And how much do the number of deaths matter? A life is a life, as valuable as any other. But as some may say "a single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic."

Don't play the ball to your side of the court disrespecting what you were defending: human rights.

Thank you, John. I doubt that many here grasp the principle that there is no difference between one life and one thousand.

Only the soldier is morally required to place, or have placed, a numerical value on his existence.

JR. I knew someone would say that
It explains why so many Gazans are willing to die and why so many Jews are'nt.
It explains why the Gazans will fight to the death and why the Jews will fire missiles and cluster bombs from F16's killing even more children so they don't loose soldiers.
I bet most Palistinian soldier's are fathers, motivated to fight because they have lost loved one's.
I bet most Israelie soldiers are soldiers, motivated to fight because they know there's little chance of them getting themselves killed.

FB. Is that what the Army taught you? If so, it explains alot about why the US/Israeli Army does what it does.
You talk about us utterly ignoring the human dimensions of this conflict, yet you make a comment like that.

If you two don't look back tomorrow at what you have just wrote and wish that you had'nt...........well, what hope is there?

nix. That post demonstrates complete and utter ignorance of nearly every facet of human existence.

I say that without rancor. Only sadness for you.

You edited a post above. I will answer your question of the human dimensions with two words.

love hate

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Are you advocating mass deportations?<!-/Quote-!>

Yes. Islam in its current state has no place in the civilized world. You cannot be a "good" Muslim and a good citizen of a Liberal Democracy. The two are not compatible.

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Do you feel Muslims have no reason to feel aggrieved?<!-/Quote-!>

Don't care. Many cultures are aggrieved without resorting to acts of random terror.

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Are you saying their religion/culture is inherently ignorant and brutal?<!-/Quote-!>

Yes. Islam is a religion/culture of hate, pedophelia, racism, brutality, sexism, and ignorance. All the explanations in the world pale in comparison to the reality of the Middle East and acts of cowardice committed in the name of Allah. If you don't like it change your religion. Christianity had to evolve past the Crusades, The Inquisition, and burning witches. Islam must evolve past the Middle Ages as well. This is the 21st century. Act like it.


@Nix... Pointing out terror attacks is not racism. Sucks to have such a glaring contradiction to the whole Islam is peace lie. You can come up with a good apology for that horrible day in London I am sure. Try telling it to the victims....

I said you were starting to sound like a racist.
And no. I can't and won't even try.
Shall we start a thread about Islam? as it seems we have found a subject that you are willing to be serious about.

Anyone else heard that the Zionists are now using chemical weapons in Gaza? If it's true thats three types of weapons that the Zionists are using thats illegal.

So lets go through the facts from after the arrival of the first Jews, to the slaughter we have today.

1) The Zionists turned up after the war with the help of the USA and through terrorist means, according to Britain and many other countries, occupied land of the Palistinians and forced them to live in refugee camps.
2) The 1967 war started and Zionists took over land to get to the border with Egypt, cutting the Palistinian land into two. But when the war was over, the Zionists kept the land.
3) The Palistinians created a liberation army to fight the Zionists.
4) The Zionists assassinated it's members with War planes, killing anyone who was near by.
5) The Palistinians retaliated with suicide bombers, killing anyone who was near by.
6) The Zionists started to build a wall seperating more Palistinian communities and gained some more land.
7) The Zionists support Hamas to divide the Palistinian people and to weaken Fata.
8) The Palistinians in Gaza voted in Hamas as Fata consolidated it's self in the West Bank.
9) The international community put sanctions on the Gazans for voting in Hamas.
10) Hamas stopped it's attacks.
11) The Zionists blockaded Gaza.
12) Hamas re-started it's attacks.
13) Hamas agreed to a seize fire while still under a blockade.
14) The Zionists broke the seize fire by assassinating Hamas members and killing Palistinians in the process.
15) Hamas retaliated with firing rockets.
16) The Zionist started their offensive.

Please correct me if I've missed anything out.

one more thing:

17) COAL!!!!!

Thats the second time you've said that.
Please tell me what you mean.
Please.

http://old.tcfreenet.org/people/hale/articles/bucket.htm


Coal, yes?

Who needs coal when these boys have got Gas?

(Curtain rises)
Farmer Bob: Numbers don't matter. One death is as bad as a million. Everyone is evil. These problems have roots we can never possibly understand.
(Washes hands and walks offstage.)
(Reappears briefly)
Farmer Bob: And I know more than you do about it so shut up. I stood on the Golan and...
(Curtain falls)

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Yes, Israelis deserve security. Twenty Israelis dead in 10 years around Gaza is a grim figure indeed. But 600 Palestinians dead in just over a week, thousands over the years since 1948 - when the Israeli massacre at Deir Yassin helped to kick-start the flight of Palestinians from that part of Palestine that was to become Israel - is on a quite different scale. This recalls not a normal Middle East bloodletting but an atrocity on the level of the Balkan wars of the 1990s. And of course, when an Arab bestirs himself with unrestrained fury and takes out his incendiary, blind anger on the West, we will say it has nothing to do with us. Why do they hate us, we will ask? But let us not say we do not know the answer.<!-/Quote-!>

Robert Fisk, The Independent, Jan 7

Farmer Bob: Robert Fisk has been covering the Mideast for decades, and has seen some incredibly horrific stuff up-close and personal, including Israeli atrocities. I'll bet he's even spoken to more Israeli commanders than you have!

He's no apologist for Arab terror either. Read his book The Great War for Civilization.

But that would be an attempt to inform yourself, which you seem to regard as somehow immoral...

Here's the full article:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-why-do-they-hate-the-west-so-much-we-will-ask-1230046.html

Have a read.

Good article. I disagree with none of it. The point?

Fisk is a respected journalist, but we aren't governed by journalists, have our diplomacy conducted by them, nor do they lead our militaries. No doubt that there are many journalists, among others, that would echo Fisk's statement completely. What of it?

You just can't grasp that I will not demonize or dehumanize Israeli or Palestinean?
Nor will I be an apologist for either's behaviors?

That recognizing that a blood feud is beyond outside resolution in the long term?

Apparently I am not alone in that view. Where are the nations lining up to commit troops to peacekeeping initiatives?

My humble suggestion that the Palestineans have the best hope of achieving their objectives through the nonviolent approach of Ghandi's political philosophies is not particularly insightful, unique, or mine originally. The idea has been proposed by others far more qualified than I.

You are growing tiresome. Continue, if you wish, for the lulz of the community, but you are not worth any more of my time. I see little point in repeating myself endlessly.

There are others here that will entertain your thirst for pointless squabbling.

It would seem that you wish to hear that Israel is evil incarnate, and Palestineans are and always have been helpless victims of their brutal repression and that is all there is to it.

You want to believe that? Go ahead. What's one more mindless, programmed fool in this world? You are in good company.

'Where are the nations lining up to commit troops to peacekeeping initiatives?'

Already been Vetoed by the USA

Vetoes by USA: 1972-1982
Subject Date & Meeting US Rep Casting Veto Vote
Palestine: Syrian-Lebanese Complaint. 3 power draft resolution 2/10784 9/10/1972 Bush 13-1(U.S.), 1
Palestine: Examination of Middle East Situation. 8-power draft resolution (S/10974) 7/2/1973 Scali 13-1(U.S.), 0 (China not partic.)
Palestine: Egyptian-Lebanese Complaint. 5-power draft power resolution (S/11898) 12/8/1975 Moynihan 13-1(U.S.), 1
Palestine: Middle East Problem, including Palestinian question. 6-power draft resolution (S/11940) 1/26/1976 Moynihan 9-1(U.S.),3 (China & Libya not partic.)
Palestine: Situation in Occupied Arab Territories. 5-power draft resolution (S/12022) 3/25/1976 Scranton 14-1(U.S.),0
Palestine: Report on Committee on Rights of Palestinian People. 4-power draft resolution (S/121119) 6/29/1976 Sherer 10-1(U.S.),4
Palestine: Palestinian Rights. Tunisian draft resolution. (S/13911) 4/30/1980 McHenry 10-1(U.S.),4
Palestine: Golan Heights. Jordan draft resolution. (S/14832/Rev. 2) 1/20/1982 Kirkpatrick 9-1(U.S.),5
Palestine: Situation in Occupied Territories, Jordan draft resolution (S/14943) 4/2/1982 Lichenstein 13-1(U.S.),1
Palestine: Incident at the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. 4-power draft resolution 4/20/1982 Kirpatrick 14-1(U.S.), 0
Palestine: Conflict in Lebanon. Spain draft resolution. (S/15185) 6/8/1982 Kirpatrick 14-1(U.S.),0
Palestine: Conflict in Lebanon. France draft resolution. (S/15255/Rev. 2) 6/26/1982 Lichenstein 14-1(U.S.)
Palestine: Conflict in Lebanon. USSR draft resolution. (S/15347/Rev. 1, as orally amended) 8/6/1982 Lichenstein 11-1(U.S.),3
Palestine: Situation in Occupied Territories, 20-power draft resolution (S/15895) 8/2/1983 Lichenstein 13-1(U.S.),1



Security Council Vetoes/Negative voting 1983-present
Subject Date Vote
Occupied Arab Territories: Wholesale condemnation of Israeli settlement policies - not adopted 1983
S. Lebanon: Condemns Israeli action in southern Lebanon. S/16732 9/6/1984 Vetoed: 13-1 (U.S.), with 1 abstention (UK)
Occupied Territories: Deplores "repressive measures" by Israel against Arab population. S/19459. 9/13/1985 Vetoed: 10-1 (U.S.), with 4 abstentions (Australia, Denmark, UK, France)
Lebanon: Condemns Israeli practices against civilians in southern Lebanon. S/17000. 3/12/1985 Vetoed: 11-1 (U.S.), with 3 abstentions (Australia, Denmark, UK)
Occupied Territories: Calls upon Israel to respect Muslim holy places. S/17769/Rev. 1 1/30/1986 Vetoed: 13-1 (US), with one abstention (Thailand)
Lebanon: Condemns Israeli practices against civilians in southern Lebanon. S/17730/Rev. 2. 1/17/1986 Vetoed: 11-1 (U.S.), with 3 abstentions (Australia, Denmark, UK)
Libya/Israel: Condemns Israeli interception of Libyan plane. S/17796/Rev. 1. 2/6/1986 Vetoed: 10 -1 (US), with 4 abstentions (Australia, Denmark, France, UK)
Lebanon: Draft strongly deplored repeated Israeli attacks against Lebanese territory and other measures and practices against the civilian population; (S/19434) 1/18/1988 vetoed 13-1 (US), with 1 abstention (UK)
Lebanon: Draft condemned recent invasion by Israeli forces of Southern Lebanon and repeated a call for the immediate withdrawal of all Israeli forces from Lebanese territory; (S/19868) 5/10/1988 vetoed 14-1 (US)
Lebanon: Draft strongly deplored the recent Israeli attack against Lebanese territory on 9 December 1988; (S/20322) 12/14/1988 vetoed 14-1 (US)
Occupied territories: Draft called on Israel to accept de jure applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention; (S/19466) 1988 vetoed 14-1 (US)
Occupied territories: Draft urged Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention, rescind the order to deport Palestinian civilians, and condemned policies and practices of Israel that violate the human rights of the Palestinian people in the occupied territories; (S/19780) 1988 vetoed 14-1 (US)
Occupied territories: Strongly deplored Israeli policies and practices in the occupied territories, and strongly deplored also Israel's continued disregard of relevant Security Council decisions. 2/17/1989 Vetoed 14-1 (US)
Occupied territories: Condemned Israeli policies and practices in the occupied territories. 6/9/1989 Vetoed 14-1 (US)
Occupied territories: Deplored Israel's policies and practices in the occupied territories. 11/7/1989 Vetoed 14-1 (US)
Occupied territories: NAM draft resolution to create a commission and send three security council members to Rishon Lezion, where an Israeli gunmen shot down seven Palestinian workers. 5/31/1990 Vetoed 14-1 (US)
Middle East: Confirms that the expropriation of land by Israel in East Jerusalem is invalid and in violation of relevant Security Council resolutions and provisions of the Fourth Geneva convention; expresses support of peace process, including the Declaration of Principles of 9/13/1993 5/17/1995 Vetoed 14-1 (US)
Middle East: Calls upon Israeli authorities to refrain from all actions or measures, including settlement activities. 3/7/1997 Vetoed 14-1 (US)
Middle East: Demands that Israel cease construction of the settlement in east Jerusalem (called Jabal Abu Ghneim by the Palestinians and Har Homa by Israel), as well as all the other Israeli settlement activity in the occupied territories
3/21/1997 Vetoed 13-1 (US),1

Call for UN Observers Force in West Bank, Gaza 3/27/2001 Vetoed 9-1 (US),
with four abstentions
(Britain, France, Ireland and Norway)
Condemned acts of terror, demanded an end to violence and the establishment of a monitoring mechanism to bring in observers. 12/14/2001 Vetoed 12-1 (US)
with two abstentions
(Britain and Norway)

On the killing by Israeli forces of several UN employees and the destruction of the World Food Programme (WFP) warehouse
12/19/2002 12-1 (US)
with two abstentions
(Bulgaria and Cameroon)

Demand that Israel halt threats to expel Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat 9/16/03 Vetoed 11-1 (US)
with three abstentions
(Britain, Germany and Bulgaria)
Seeks to bar Israel from extending security fence 10/14/03 Vetoed 10-1 (US) with four absentations (Britain, Germany, Bulgaria and Cameroon)
Condemns Israel for killing Ahmed Yassin 3/25/04 Vetoed 11-1 (US)
with three absentations
(Britain, Germany, Romania)
Calls For Israel To Halt Gaza Operation 10/05/04 Vetoed 11-1 (US)
with three absentations
(Britain, Germany, Romania)
Calls For Israel To Halt Gaza Operation 7/13/06 Vetoed 10-1 (US)
with four absentations
(Britain, Peru, Denmark and Slovakia)
Calls For Israel To Halt Gaza Operation 11/11/06 Vetoed 10-1 (US)
with four absentations
(Britain, Denmark, Japan and Slovakia)

Nice post, nix.

And so Farmer Bob disappears over the horizon, in a blaze of moral certitude and self-righteousness that is visible from space.

Well, maybe now we'll find someone who's willing to look at what's actually going on, and not accuse anyone who disagrees with him of being a moral troglodyte.

Or put words in their mouth - apparently I believe "Israel is evil incarnate" - If I got to distort what my opponent says I guess I'd win every argument too!

To tell the truth I was getting a little tired of repeating myself too. It was stupid of me to expect much from this discussion. I have to remember this is the Internet, and for every person who's capable of intelligent discussion there are 10,000 Sams.

Or others who aren't Sams but refuse to use their intelligence.