JERUSALEM

Why should the Palestinians make the first move?
No other country right now actively occupies another countries land. Except for the so called coalition forces.
Even under the peace treaty Israel continued to do what the rest of the world had told it not to(the lists above). Would you trust Israel to do what is right by you?


I also fear that there is a massive media gap. A gap where the truth should be. I watch all the news channels my digi box gives me. On the western channels all I see is men being rushed into hospital. On the Eastern all I see is women and children. The truth is everyone is getting killed. This is ethnic cleansing. And for what reason? resistance to an occupation. Tell me, where else in the world is there another active occupation taking place apart from Iraq and Afganistan?

I gotta agree with FB on his points, but I ask him to crank back the time machine a few hundred years. If that were possible we would all see the Jews and Muslims fighting like crazy, as they are today.

Either way, war sux.

I also noticed that CNN looks more and more like a Megadeth video everyday. Its a bad world we live in when we gotta turn off the news because of youngsters in the house.

I don't know as much about mid-east policies as some of you others. I only know what lies the news tell us, the history channel, and the Bible. But being of Native American decent (Blackfoot, N Mont. tribe), I can relate to being squeezed out.

If you really look there are terrible parrallels between the plight of the Palistinian and the American Indian.

Back to my bowl!
Dirt

The question of whether Hamas should recognize Israel's right to exist is not the proper question to ask, and is intended to deflect attention from the real issues. Israel has a state and the Palestinians do not. What's more, Israel's existence is under no threat from the Palestinians, despite the false "symmetry" that Israel wants the rest of the world to believe exists between it and the Palestinians. Hamas can kill a few Israeli citizens from time to time, which of course is a terrorist act, but poses no fundamental threat to the existence of the Jewish state - and simply pales into insignificance when compared to the treatment that Israel can and does mete out to the Palestinians on a sickeningly regular basis.

The first item on the agenda is to recognize that the Palestinians have the right to a state of their own.

General D: go ahead and agree with F Bob if you want (though I can't see why you would) but I have to differ sharply with your view that Jews and Muslims have always been at each others' throats. Sad though I am to say it, my "Christian" forebears are the ones that Jews have historically always had more to fear from. When the Moors/Arabs were driven from Spain (a tragedy, if you ask me) one of the first things the conquerors did was expel all the Jews, who had evidently been living quite well under the previous Muslim rulers.

Ditto for the Crusades. After slaughtering Jewish communities across Europe on their way to retake the Holy Land from the Muslims, the Crusaders finally captured Jerusalem, where they found a thriving Jewish community. They soon took care of that!

Muslim rule in this period was very tolerant of Christians and Jews, certainly by the standards of the day. The Muslims recognized Christians and Jews as fellow "People of the Book" who believed in the same God, even if they had strange notions like the Trinity that Muslims find bizarre and heretical. The intolerant ones have always been the Christians, going all the way back to the Roman Empire. You could even say that intolerance was hard-wired into Christianity from its very beginnings.

FASCINATING FACT OF THE DAY: Iran has a thriving if small community of some 25,000 Persian Jews. They have full rights to observe their faith, are protected under the Iranian constitution, and have a seat in the Majlis (Iran's Parliament) reserved for them.

They have always been at each others throats in some degree. Things got progressivly worse once outsiders got involved.

We all know how badly the Christians have treated folks thru-out history. Christians are the 'Raid for the cultures'.

An Arab leader has spoken about how the Zionists expect the children of Gaza to be when they grow older. But I guess the Zionists have already thought about that one. Gaza's gonna be covered in depleted Urainium, due to the ammo Israel is using. So by the time the children become men they will either be too ill to fight due to the cancers and leukemia or already dead from cancer or leukemia.

The Israelies have been planning this for months.

The more land they grab the more they have to take it over to feel safe on the land they have grabbed. Once they have Jerusalem they will need to control the surrounding areas to feel safe. Thats alot more Palestinian Territory from the West Bank. The Zionists want as many Jews to go to Israel, which means it will need more land to house them. The Brits got it right in the 1920's. Limit the amount of jews entering the territory. Then all would have been well.

Palestinian territory??? What is this? Never in the history of the world has there been an independent palestine. Under the turks palestine was occupied and the arabs before them, the romans, greeks, egyptians, persians etc have all occupied this area.
The modern concept of palestine has only taken hold as it is anti israeli. I did not see the jordanians or the egyptians rushing to give the palestinians a home land. Only because israel took this land from them, and since they are unable to take it back themselves they support the idea of palestine.

Careful. Vali. Logic and reason have no place in this argument. This is about the passions of Absolutists. One side /i{must} be pure as the wind driven snow and the other evil incarnate.

Nuance and rationality are not welcome here.

Vali - if the Palestinians have no legitimate claim to the land, then who are the "them" that you admit Israel took it away from?? And how is the claim of the dispossessors more legitimate than that of the dispossessed, except by the rule of might makes right (which you seem to feel should be the determining factor in international relations)?

Hey, I just realized: if you really are a doctor who patches up the victims of suicide bombers, as you say you are, then I see a rational method behind your ridiculous opinions. Because as long as the powers that be tell the weak and dispossessed to shut the hell up and "move on" the way you say, and then beat them down if they dare to fight for their rights, you're always going to have lots and lots of work.

Good plan. (Frankly, though, I very much doubt you're a doctor at all.)

As for F Bob, man, you're not even trying any more, are you? "I am informed; you are opinionated; he is dogmatic."

Don't give up on nuance and rationality though. If you try them you might like them!

<!-Quote-!>Quote:

Limit the amount of jews entering the territory. Then all would have been well.<!-/Quote-!>

<!-Quote-!>Quote:

For us, this is not a problem you can turn a blind eye to-one to be solved by small concessions. For us, it is a problem of whether our nation can ever recover its health, whether the Jewish spirit can ever really be eradicated. Don't be misled into thinking you can fight a disease without killing the carrier, without destroying the bacillus. Don't think you can fight racial tuberculosis without taking care to rid the nation of the carrier of that racial tuberculosis. This Jewish contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the Jew, has been banished from our midst.<!-/Quote-!>

<!-Quote-!>Quote:

Anybody who recognises Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation’s fury [while] any [Islamic leader] who recognises the Zionist regime means he is acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world . . . As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map<!-/Quote-!>

<!-Quote-!>Quote:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."<!-/Quote-!>

Nix seems to fit right in there..

You aren't arguing anything, Almohad.

You are spouting religious and political diatribe. See Sam's quotes above.

Shall we talk about my conservation with a senior Israeli commander one afternoon on the Golan Heights? This was not long after their withdrawal from Lebanon and he talked at length about his fears for the effects of militarization on Israaeli society from the constant wars and threat of war.

Perhaps, the settlers I met from Poland who were illegally building settlements on the West Bank?

The doctors at a refugee camp in southern Lebanon that I visited?

This is a complex issue with valid points on both sides. However, the Moral High Ground was surrendered by both sides over twenty years ago. Forgive me if I don't see this conflict in the same light as an election, philosophical argument, or sporting event.

As long as the populations are whipped into patriotic frenzy and given full reign to their fears and suspicions by unscrupulous or misguided leaders, there will be no peace. As long as religious hysteria outweighs desire for life, there will be no peace.

If what you are saying is sincere, you, and people like you, are part of the problem, Almohad.

I don't take conflicts like this lightly. Real people are dying in a pointless war. I won't treat it like another academic debate.

Deal with it.

Nice quotes, JB. Um, your point is...? Oh right - anyone who thinks the Palestinians have a legitimate grievance is like Hitler! Well, that does seem to wrap it up, doesn't it?

FBob: you just get better and better. Anyone who disagrees with you is simply "spouting political and religious diatribe."

I bet you were the star of your school debating team!

As for your alleged experiences in the area, which I presume are meant to impress me and shut me up, please just save it for someone else. Firsthand experience and contact can be as uninformative and bias-forming as reading the most untrustworthy second- and third-hand accounts. It's all what you make of it. By the way, what point are you trying to make about the Israeli commander's fear of militarization? Does this disprove or contradict something I said?

"A complex issue with valid points on both sides..." So really there is no truth: it's all just a mess of competing narratives, each with its own validity, and collectively cancelling each other out so that all we wind up doing is talking everything to death. How postmodern! Why waste our time debating who blockaded whom in Gaza for two years, or whose helicopter gunships are destroying whose hospitals? No, only people who have spoken with Israeli commanders on the Golan, watched Polish settlers building settlements, and visited refugee camp doctors in southern Lebanon, can truly say that the scales have been lifted from their eyes.

Do you mind going over for me once more what your actual argument is? You've been riffing on your own intellectual and moral superiority for so long that I've forgotten what, if any, points you were trying to make. And I honestly can't be bothered scrolling all the way up to find out what you were saying before you sidetracked yourself onto the obviously much more delicious theme of your own intellectual suppleness and sophistication.

So just recap it for me, please, as concisely as you can, and preferably without once more proclaiming yourself uniquely equipped, intellectually and morally, to grapple with these weighty and complex issues.

Believe me, that point is well and truly taken.

It was the State of Israel which broke the truce, in the 'ticking tunnel' raid on the night of the US elections two months ago. Since then the Israeli army went on stoking the fires of escalation with calculated raids and killings, whenever the shooting of missiles on Israel decreased.

The ceasefire can be restored immediately, and on firmer foundations. It is the right of Israel to demand a complete end to shooting on its territory and citizens, but it must stop all attacks from its side, end completely the siege and starvation of Gaza's million and half inhabitants, and stop interfering with the Palestinians' right to choose their own leaders.

Ehud Barak's declaration that he is stopping the elections campaign in order to concentrate on the Gaza offensive is a joke. The war in Gaza is itself Barak's elections campaign, a cynical attempt to buy votes with the blood and suffering in Netivot and Sderot, Gaza and Beit Hanun.

Actually it was the Hamas Charter, Hitler, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and Nix.

Just pointing out common threads.

We can post some moderate Palestinian voices as well if you like.

Perhaps Jihad Mickey Mouse?

Hello Boys and Girls. Death to America!


Or here where Micky becomes a martyr

In the begining God created man, a few years later he was getting bored so he created the jews. He had a little fun poking them about then he decided he wanted something new. So he created the muslims, go forth and destoy the jews he said. after a few years of getting their butts kicked the muslim hordes gave up. Where did god go wrong..... Me thinks its those silly religions that are the cause of many of our griefs. The arrogance of humans that think they know Gods will. Religions are the creations of people who wish to enforce their way on others. I am sure God has a warm place for these people.

There's nothing inherently "evil" about religion. What is wrong is how people see it and use it.

In a very deep historical sense, religion has been used as an excuse, as a means to justify petty acts. This is not its intent purpose.

Very well, Almohad. My point in a nutshell.

The Israeli/Palestinean conflict is one that outside actors would do best to avoid. It will be settled by those two parties when they are both ready and not before. Not the US, UN, or anyone else possesses the diplomatic or military means to resolve this conflict for them. The conflict is both deplorable and outside the rest of the world's power to moderate or mitigate.

Klarina has made a sound case as has Vali, both rationally expressing the opposing viewpoints.

Since this has devolved into a shooting war, I grieve for the Palestinean civilians, members of the IDF for what some will do and what most will see and the psychological consequences of such. I grieve for the bood guilt on both sides of the border.

End of statement.

Do not use the word alleged with me again. I 've earned my experience in the real world.
You would do well to remember that you are talking to not just doctors, but lawyers, business professionals, economists, retired military officers, very bright college kids, and many others with real world credentials in this community.

Crito: But Bobcrates, if as you say man cannot truly know the Good, and if as you say human society is but an imperfect reflection of our already flawed natures, then surely you must admit that there is no point in attempting to perfect it? By your own argument society is thus at not one, but two removes from the perfection that you say we must seek.

Instead, with this in mind, I propose to you that the purpose of a human life cannot be to do or even seek the good, but to seek pleasure and gratification wherever we may find it, and to use our fellow human beings as mere instruments for our own gratification.

Bobcrates: Crito, you're so full of crap it's incredible. I'm not even going to argue with you anymore. Why don't you just crawl into a hole somewhere and die?

Crito: WTF??

Bobcrates: "I have foresuffered all
Enacted on this same divan or bed;
I who have sat by Thebes below the wall
And walked among the lowest of the dead..."

Dr. Vali: There is no point in arguing, Crito. Truly he has gone to walk among the Great Ones...

I've been this route with you postmodern 'intellectuals' before, and it always ends up the same way. The argument starts to get close and tight, and you throw up your hands and say "these are complex issues... nobody is right and everybody is right. Anyway I know more than you do so shut up."

I do not grieve for the Palestinian civilians, though I do feel sad for them. They had the chance to stand up to Hamas. Israel has sat there for three long years taking rocket fire from terrorists and trying to allow the Palestinian people do the right thing and stop those terrorists. Not only did they not try to stop Hamas, they have provided support to Hamas. Now Israel has had enough. It is sad any of the are killed, but do not grieve as they have chosen their fate.

Get your head out of the sand, Archangel. Israel never "sat there" - for two long years it has imposed a strangling blockade on food, medical supplies and other necessaries getting through to the Gaza population, and in spite of this aggressive, terrorist act aimed at a civilian population, Hamas has been extremely restrained in its use of rockets. It was only after the Israeli attack started that the world found out the rockets could reach farther than previously known. If Hamas is so dedicated to violence, what were they waiting for?

What's more, Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinians. Israel is in effect saying - and you apparently agree - that they don't have the right to elect the government they want.

What is going on in Gaza now is the same attack on a virtually helpless civilian population that the Israelis have been pursuing by other means for years.

Loyalties are often hard to understand, Most germans were not nazis yet thet fought for them. Most palestinians (I hope) dont want war with Israel but they support Hamas.
Even though those you call 'your own' are wrong, you would rather side with them, than support your 'enemy'.
Until people owe their loyalities to humanity as a whole and not a small sub group we will have these pointless conflicts.
Remove Hamas and this problem gets a lot more solvable. Question is do other countries want this problem resolved?

Al, Israel is not attacking the civilian population. If it were the casualties would be in the tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands. Hamas hide like all cowardly terrosists in population centers.
If the palestianians voted for a party that openely states they want to destroy Irseal they can hardly complain when Israel strikes back. They bought it on themselves.
Maybe they will vote for peace next time, but I doubt it. The hate in their hearts is too strong.

"Hiding among the civilians" - this is what attackers throughout the ages have always said to justify the brutality of their attacks. And where else are they supposed to go in Gaza? It's one of the most crowded places on earth.

Israel isn't attacking civilians?? Then maybe you can tell me what Israel's two-year blockade of medicines and food was intended to do. Who was it aimed at? Who are Israelis after when they destroy the Gaza port and airport, power plants, hospitals, schools, mosques etc. etc?

Israeli politicians understand that destroying infrastructure and killing yet more civilians is going to increase Hamas support and militance. Their standard practice is to cut off any possibility of a negotiated compromise by launching attacks whenever the other side starts to talk about it, thereby provoking them to abandon any thought of negotiation and adopt a more militant response. Gush Shalom has already pointed out that every time Hamas rocket attacks decreased, Israel stepped up its own attacks.

Hamas founder Sheikh Yassin brought up the possibility of a compromise with Israel and was promptly assassinated by them in 2004. It's to their advantage to cut off any attempt by any Palestinian organization to become more accommodating. That gives them a free hand to use the iron fist on the Palestinians, while the Western media looks on and cheers (accompanied by people like you who really ought to be able to do better).

"The hate in their hearts..." I see - so all the Palestinians have is a psychological problem? They can't see things clearly? They need to understand that the F-16 pilots traumatizing their children are people just like they are? Next time they need to vote for the government Israel and the US want them to have. That's all it takes.

You're a classic victim-blamer, doctor.

All right, Almohad. I shall pick up the gauntlet.

Given the history of the region and the parties involved, the vociferous defense of Palestinean or Israeli actions since the early 1980's is particularly difficult to justify on moral grounds. My own experience in the area left me quite torn with professional sympathy for the Israeli position set against the undeniable evidence that many of their genuine security issues where being exacerbated by their own conduct. The heavy handed tactics of the IDF and security forces in the occupied areas clearly fueled Palestinean resentment and was a direct impediment to lasting political resolution. The Palestinean record of terrorist activities coupled with the fragmentary nature of their internal politics likewise made negotiated settlement highly dubious. The levels of hostility within both populations did not indicate to me that there was a great deal of hope for grass roots pressures on the leadership of either side to pursue meaningful dialogue. The rhetoric rampant through both camps was equally vitriolic and certainly not conducive to peace initiatives.
Little has changed since. Attempts at settlement have brought temporary deescalation of the levels of violence, but the core behaviors and attitudes remained undiminished. Israel still seeks military solutions to an inherently political problem. Many Palestineans still embrace an unrealistic position that armed conflict will break Iraeli will to fight and continue to support the most extreme elements of their population.

The rest of the Muslim world remains financially aloof from the plight of a large percentage of the Palestinean population who suffer in abject poverty, despite the relatively modest sums it would require to make a large difference in these peoples' lives. Further, Palestinean intrangience and rhetoric makes meaningful Western aid very difficult to justify politically.

As Western observers of this gideon's knot, the temptation to intervene with "peacekeepers" and attempt to impose settlement frequently arises. The prospects for the success of such efforts are dismal. Placing foreign troops into this environment is the least likely to yield the desired results.

As later experience in the former Yugoslavia reinforced for me the futility of trying to choose sides among equally belligerent adversaries, we Westerners must sometimes acknowledge that some conflicts are beyond mediation and external resolution.

Despite the morally ambiguous positions of Israeli and Palestinean alike, this thread is a prime example of the insistence of some to take sides regardless of the evidence.

You, Almohad, stridently paint the Palestineans as innocent victims of Israeli oppression, blantantly disregarding the legacy of terror that has been a staple of their tactical arsenal and the hostility and hatred it has fueled within Israeli society.

Others vociferously defend Israeli actions as justifiable response to terrorist attacks, blantantly ignoring Israeli disregard of terms of previous settlements as well as tactics virtually guaranteed to reignite Palestinean anger.

Anyone who honestly claims to see absolute right and wrong in this conflict must surely possess the wisdom of King Solomon. The actions of both sides have been deplorable; the violations of the terms of settlements egregious.

The rational course of action for outside nations is not emotionally satisfying, but the least likely to further contribute to the hostilities. Do nothing but call for both sides to seek peaceful resolution. Peace will be achieved when both parties desire it sufficiently to prevent the extremist elements in their respective populations from violating it.

If that opinion and assessment makes me Socrates, pass the hemlock.

With all the death and destruction in this world why does the palestinain question attract so much attention? 400 dead is a drop in the ocean of deaths that occur in africa. Is it because so many hate the jews simply for being jews?
How many thousands of africans have islamic militia killed in sudan? Somalia makes gaza look like a holiday camp.
Islamic propaganda and anti isreali attitudes turn a realively small local conflict into a global problem. My do muslims hate israel so much? My do they turn a blind eye to the suffering of their own people at the hands of their own leaders just to spite the israelis?
The world is a crazy place.