JERUSALEM

Can I shoot the same "glorified fireworks" at your house?

JB.....If I had taken over your house and put you in the shed at the bottom of the garden, which I had built a fence around so you could'nt see anyone. Then starved and beat you every now and again. And then to top it off I build a tree house in the tree above the shed to keep an eye on you and every now and again shot one of your family. The least I would expect from you would be to make a rocket and fire it at me. I doubt you would ask for permission though.

You took the words right out of my mouth, nix.

And of course once he shot the rocket at you, you'd go around telling everyone how violent he is and how you can't expect reasonable behavior from a person like that who obviously has no respect for human life.

"Floggings will continue until morale improves."

It was a war. They lost.

60 years of this bullshit. If people had been concerned for the "plight of the Palestinians" they should have done something constructive to provide them with education and a place to live 60 years ago. But since the Arab countries themselves are in the same pitiful state its not surprising.

Israel serves a purpose. It diverts attention from the despotic regimes the Arab lives under.

Its more productive to channel your populaces anger towards the evil Jews rather than having to answer tough questions about why they are in hovel while you live in a palace. Why you are eating and they are not. And why you ride in a Bentley and they ride a donkey.

Those kind of questions usually involve angry mobs, torches, and firing squads.

So of course the Oligarchy keeps the Palestinians exactly where they are. Its another kind of circus to keep the masses happy.

It takes the other wise rebellious surly revolutionaries and directs them outward instead of inward. Its actually a brilliant system of retaining power.

No question the Arab governments have behaved shamefully.

But "It was a war. They lost" is just pathetic. Sounds like you have a hard time dealing with the basics about the origins of the situation.

As for "finding them a place to live" - how about the place they got kicked out of? Not an option as far as you're concerned! No, let the Israeli settlers take it, and tell Jordan, Syria, Egypt and Lebanon to clean up the mess.

Brilliant, JB!! And you wonder why the Palestinians feel that the world doesn't give a shit?

I don't wonder why the Palestineans feel the world doesn't give a shit.

It doesn't.

These people left their homes by their own choice immediately prior to the '48 war of annihilation waged by their muslim brothers against the jewish settlers. There were no forced relocations. The Palestineans were not forced out at bayonet point. Read the damned history.
They bet on the wrong horse and and have been paying for it ever since.
They were kept in the camps and poverty by their muslim bothers despite the vast oil riches that flood into the region.

They consistently supported a policy of extermination against the Israelis and several invasion attempts to make it reality.

The jews were persecuted and nearly annhilated in Europe and some chose to go back to a land where they were hated and unwelcome. A land governed by the British Empire.

Now these two groups point fingers and make war.

There is no longer a moral high ground.

Israel will defend itself and fight for its existence. The Palestineans will fight for whatever the hell they think it is that they are fighting for. The muslim, arab world will continue to be the world's greatest hypocrites and do nothing at all to help anyone.

Americans saw, full well, the Palestineans cheering the 9/11 attacks and celebrating the perpetrators.

We owe those people nothing.

If you want to blame someone for the current mess. Blame arrogant and anti-semetic British colonial policies that created this mess from its outset. If you want to blame someone for the current violence, blame Israeli and Palestinean alike. If they want war, they will always have it.

Great Britain had an agreement with the palistinians and the Arab world in the late 1920's, I think, on how many normal Jews (farmers, builders etc), could settle in Palestine to seed the creation of Israel. This was going to be a state created over hundreds of years. Through births and a steady population increase, over time, so to assimilate themselves (as they had been doing for hundreds of years around the world) into the surrounding population.
All was well up until the holocaust. But once that horrific act had been done the need for a Jewish home land was put on top of the world agenda. The Americans wanted mass immigration to the Holy Land, but Great Britain said no, as it would go against the agreement made and due to the problems that would ensue because of it. With that and with support by the American, Jews and the up coming Zionist movement illegally flooded into the territory, creating what we have today.

Your grasp of the history is as piss poor as your grasp of environmental science, Nix.

Historical revisionism is as pathetic and destructive as trans-science.

Neither address the realities of two intractable populations that will not coexist peacefully.

They did coexist until the holocaust. For once that horrific act had been done the need for a Jewish home land was put on top of the world agenda. The Americans wanted mass immigration to the Holy Land, but Great Britain said no, as it would go against the agreement made and due to the problems that would ensue because of it. With that and with support by the American, Jews and the up coming Zionist movement illegally flooded into the territory, creating what we have today.

You see, now your making me repeat myself.

And you'll need to do it a few mores times if you hope to get through.

I think Farmer B has spent too much time talking to the chickens and cows...

I thought it was suicide bombers and random rocket and mortar attacks that made it what we had today?

Never seen a culture more infatuated with death or as dismissive of life as Arabs.

If the terrorists targeted military targets it would be a response to occupation. Ie: Resistance to German occupation, Red China working with Nationalist China during WWII..Ect.

Deliberate targeting of cvilians removes any such notion from this issue. Its terror designed for a political purpose not an armed struggle against an occupying force. Its a self feeding culture of death.

Hi Almohad. I think FarmerBob is just getting pissed of with all these negative vibes man.

JB.
Have you ever tried to aim one of those rocket launchers? They are made out of old ironing boards and double sided sticky tape. If they were allowed an army and weapons they would be fighting on a battlefield. Tank V's Tank, plane V's plane, Navy V's Navy, cruise V's Cruise. But they are not, so they only have what they have, which is barely enough to be able to fly, let alone hit something that was aimed for like an Israeli Base.

Well I think the problem is Hamas, the west bank under fatah seems to be a lot more peaceful.
Removing the support to hamas by islamic nations should be the first objective, not a direct attack. This only increases their support.

Nonsense repeated ad nauseum is still nonsense. Perhaps if some of you brainwashed children started thinking for yourselves, you would see that.

The truly ironic and frightening trend that I see in these forums is that the older members demonstrate more openmindedness and flexibility of thought than the young.

How thoroughly indoctrinated are you?

Do any of you even try to think critically?

Do you even know what that is?

You spout the politically correct nonsense of pop culture without pause to even consider the absurdity of what you are saying.

Yes. The negative vibes do have me bummed. Where are the rebellious youth? All are I see are slaves to propaganda. Saying and thinking exactly what they are told.

Are any of you more seasoned people seeing this, as well?

The world is not black and white, kiddies. On this issue, like any others, both sides can simultaneously be right and wrong. Real people are dying in this real conflict today because they put their faith in ideology and leaders with their own agendas. One need not become an apologist for either Israeli or Palestinean merely by acknowledging the complexities of the dispute. Israeli society has become dangerously militarized by the constant threat of invasion and mindless rhetoric of its neighbors. This has, in turn, led to hyper-aggressive policies in their relations with the Palestineans who confirm their fears at every turn. Both sides are entrenched in self- imposed positions of inflexibility. Any concession on either side is viewed as betrayal and mortal defeat to be exploited in internal power struggles within both groups. Fatah is seen as going "soft" and Hamas takes up the banner of jihad. The Knesset of Israel is equally subject to major policy shifts with every new attack. Why? The people themselves are governed by fears that are too willingly played upon by their leadership. That is the reality. Too much bloodshed and bad history that can't soon be forgotten by anyone. Families on both sides of the line with dead children.

Yet, the best commentary our free societies can make is to treat this conflict like another sporting event. Pick your team and cheer on your side. All right or all wrong. Black or white. Christ, and we wonder why there is no peace.

Farmer Bob, you just used up 2, 3, maybe 4 GB and said absolutely less than diddley-squat. That's an art form. I salute you, F Bob! What exactly were you trying to say???? Everyone's right and everyone's wrong?? Did the barnyard critters help you puzzle that one out?

Now the Guardians of Truth, Democracy and Grooviness in the Middle East have rammed a boat full of medical supplies heading for Gaza from Cyprus. And they did it in international waters, where they have not even the colour of legal right. But hey, they can do whatever they want. So, to Davey Jones' locker with those terrorist antibiotics and Islamist anaesthetics! Maybe F Bob and his buddies Elsie, Babe and Jemima Puddleduck can tell the rest of us how this blatantly piratical attack is a blow for freedom, justice and lovement.

As for Johanas "never-seen-an-Arab-without-a death-wish" Bilderburg, I think that someone in the wrong frame of mind might mistake you for a slavering, frothing racist nutbar head case, my friend. "A culture infatuated with death" - imagine someone saying that about, oh, Jews for instance. Take a deep breath and count to 10 trillion.

Vali... oh my... Vali. The West Bank under Fatah is "a lot more peaceful." Wanna know why? Because Abbas doesn't raise a stink when Israel builds another settlement! The settler-fascists can take as much land as they like and the PLO won't raise a hand against them. That's not exactly the peace of the graveyard but it comes damn close. C'mon now: you can set your standards a little higher.

I'm sorry Nix - didn't mean to spread the bad vibes so much. You and I think along the same lines. I'm just more mouthy.

And pissed off about the way Israeli war crimes get whitewashed as "self-defence" when no one else could get away with them...

Thank you, Almohad, for proving my point precisely.

The settler fascists.....lets not forget the entire arab world was created by settler fascists. Shit happens, get over it and move on. Israel is there to stay. Accept the price of peace is a few settlements, or fight a losing war. The palestians can choose to live in poverty and dispare or accept Israel and move on. The Arab countries have long realised they cant defeat Israel, so they have moved on, all be it they talk a little tough now and then and provide weapons for the palestians, but they are no longer that serious about it. They allow the palestians to die whilst keeping up the anti Israel front to keep the people happy.
If the arab world wanted peace for the palestians they could have it. Stop giving the palestians weapons and peace would soon follow. well relatively speaking anyway. There will people palestians ready to kill israelis and israelis ready to kill palestians for years to come.

F Bob: You don't have a point.

Vali: Are you the Professor Vali who teaches international relations at the University of Eretz Israel??

No I am Dr Vali, I put victums of suicide bombers back together as best I can. I really should go private, sooooo much money to be made in my field of work. Thanks to many millions of brain washed people across the world there would be no shortage of customers for me. Alas I, unlike the leaders in many arab countries do not wish to make my millions out of the suffering of others.
Israel is apart of the international community, if it were not for the attacks by numerous terrorist organisations supported by the arab nations against Israel. Israel would not attack palestine. Even is crazy israelies wanted to attack palestians for fun, the international community would not allow it. Currently the world knows Israel is just doing what any other country would do it in its position. Defend itself.
The pro palestian movement is just an anti israeli movemnet. Palestine has never been an independent country.
The solution is really quite simple, stop supporting terrorists and peace will follow swiftly afterwards. The hate will remain, but most people really do enjoy living in peace.

Almohad & Nix,
Simple questions, in order to renew a calmer discussion...

Should Hamas agree that Israel has a right to exist?

Do you really think Israel was lying when they discussed the possibility of an independent Palestinian state? If so, please support your comment.

Vali. The Arab leaders know that with the might of American mussel get it? mussel/tank And the fact that Israel has a couple of NUKES. Even SimCountry looks down upon those who use Nukes Of course the Arab leaders are'nt gonna start a war. Don't think they have moved on though for one moment. Jihad in the name of the occuption is being given all the fuel it needs. Unlike the rest of the world who thinks that war stops everytime our leaders make a victory statement, they live war through occupation, arrests, assassinations, evictions, destruction, discrimination, humiliation, seperation, every day of there lives.
If the rockets stopped do you think Israel would stop all of those things?
Stop building settlements?
Knock down the new settlements?
Give back the occupied territories?
Re-connect Gaza with the West bank?
Re-plant all the olive trees?
Take down the wall?
Let the palistinians have an army/air-force/navy with any weapon they want?
Give the palistinians there own sea for trade?
Let Palistine become powerful and great?

You realy think they would do all of that if the resistance rockets stopped?

And on the off chance you do. How long would the palistinians have to wait before they can just get on with living their lives?

Hello Pesco did'nt know you had posted. I'm just gonna have a cuppa an a ciggi. I'll give what you posted some thought and get back too ya.

Same with you Vali. I was replying to your post before your last one.

Ok. Pesco. Have you seen the maps showing how much land Israel has alraedy taken over? There wont be any land left for a Palestinian state at the rate their land is going.

If Israel went back to the pre 1966 borders then yes. Hammas/palestinians should agree to the state of Israel. As they did do with the Arab world in the agreement make with Britain around the 1920's.

Vali, oh Vali oh Vali. You said, 'Even if crazy israelies wanted to attack palestians for fun, the international community would not allow it.'

The world has already told the Israelies to stop. No UN resolution will be agreed if the US Jewish lobbyists don't like it. The USA have vetoed over 150 UN resolution made against Israel over the years. You should have a look at the United Nations thread. I'll go and get it for you.

nix my friend, the US backs Israel because the terrorist organisations, backed by the arab nation attack Israel. What I meant was without the terrorist attacks to justify Israeli attacks, they would not be able to attack. Stop they attacks on Israel and the attack on palestine will stop.
The UN may say stop....but they really mean hurry up and get it over with.
It will take a few years of peace before israel hands back occupied land, trust takes time to develop. With the right motivation isreal will and does remove illegal settlements.
As with all peace deals the fighting has to stop first, the fighting wont stop whilst Hamas exists in its current form.
No country in the world is going to stans by whilst terrorists in a neighbouring country fire rockets into it on a daily basis.
If someone throws stones at me in the street I am not going to wait unitl one hits me in the head before I do something about it.