Simcountry
Forum General JERUSALEM

JERUSALEM

F
FarmerBob
05 Jan 2009 18:22 Link
<!-Quote-!>Quote:

The world is a crazy place<!-/Quote-!>



26 years of military service and prolonged, intimate exposure to many of the world's cultures make me agree with statement completely, Vali.
A
Almohad117 (White Giant)
05 Jan 2009 19:58 Link
Omigod - the anti-Semitism gambit. I shouldn't be surprised, except I guess you guys were actually starting to persuade me you had something serious to offer.

My mistake.
A
Almohad117 (White Giant)
05 Jan 2009 20:11 Link
Here are my two cents worth, bearing in mind that I have never stood on the Golan with an Israeli commander etc. etc. and that I'm not a doctor, lawyer, lion tamer, Grand Poobah of the Water Buffaloes or whatever sort of thoroughbred you'd really rather be hearing from right now.

Not me. I'm just an ordinary schmuck. But what the hell: en garde anyway.

For someone who refers heavily to supposed personal experience in the region (I'll give you the benefit of a doubt since my scepticism seems to get your back up and I scare easily: out of courtesy I'll make Vali a doctor too, though I still have my doubts), your a priori determination to find symmetries between the two sides in this conflict leads you into some tortuous reasoning.

Your decision, in the best academic tradition, that both sides must be equally to blame, forces you to adopt a shopping-list approach in which any fault on one side must be counterbalanced by an equal and symmetrical fault on the other side, with the desired final result being that we discover that neither side can be more aggrieved than the other. As a result, the conclusions you reach are only marginally better than what is regularly dished up by the American media by way of 'explanation' for what is going on.

This approach, I think, leads you - forces you - to ignore some basics that are simply going to have to be grasped by anyone who genuinely wants to find a solution. Instead you turn away from the problem entirely on the grounds that both sides are up to their necks in blood and should best be left to sort it out themselves. It's just too much of a moral muddle, you tell us, for outsiders like ourselves to be able to properly sort it out.

The reason I find this approach lacking is the blatant and overwhelming asymmetry that exists on the ground today, as we speak, between the warring parties, and that likewise colors the history of the conflict. The root cause, the Original Sin, the primum mobile as it were (good one, eh??) is and always has been the Occupation. And the Occupation simply cannot be reduced to an on-the-one-hand, on-the-other-hand proposition. One of the sides occupied and occupies the territory of the other side. (Vali dismisses the notion that there was anything like 'Palestinian territory' - and hence Palestinian rights of residence - before Israel was established, but this is a trifling objection, and moreover powerfully self-contradictory in someone who supports the Israeli cause.)

I'm sorry but no matter through what lens you view the events in Mandate Palestine prior to and during the establishment of the State of Israel, a facile symmetry between the actions and moral or political claims of the two sides, and the results at the end of the day, is massively distorting. One population entered the territory of another and threw it out forcibly.

As for the seemingly unkillable canard that the Palestinians left voluntarily or because the armies of neighboring Arab states ordered them to, a post-war internal report from the Haganah (a quasi-official Jewish militia) stated that of 391,000 Palestinians who had fled by June, 1948, some 73 percent had done so in response to Jewish military operations.

To quote Israel's first president, David Ben-Gurion, in a conversation with Zionist Nahum Goldmann:
<!-Quote-!>Quote:

We have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but 2,000 years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: We have come here and stolen their country." (Reported in Goldmann's book, "The Jewish Paradox.")<!-/Quote-!>



Since that event the asymmetry has been maintained and intensified, with Israel wielding absolute military superiority over the Palestinians and neighboring Arab countries (in no small part due to steadfast US military support - the reasons for which Vali likewise confuses), and exercising near-total control over what the Palestinians can and cannot do, where they can and cannot live, when they can and cannot get jobs, food, medical aid and so on. As for the "fragmented nature of their internal politics," your deliberately vague formulation suggests that this fragmentation is somehow entirely their fault, and has nothing to do with the constant attacks by Israel on any authority the Palestinians choose - or have thrust upon them - as part of whatever 'peace deal' is deemed acceptable to Israel and the US at any given time.

Sorry, but it just ain't 50-50, Farmer Bob. Stop pretending otherwise: Israel is dominant, the Palestinians thoroughly dominated. The reporting we get in the West is similarly unbalanced. Although on this score the Palestinians can get some measure of fair play, with salutary antidotes to Western pro-Israel bias at least available, though not as readily, through Al-Jazeera and other organs.

Of course both sides have engaged in terrorist acts, and while the murder of innocent civilians is a crime by any standards, here too straitjacketing reality into a false symmetry is profoundly distorting. As Noam Chomsky might put it, the difference is between wholesale and retail terror. Israeli terror is exercised on a mass scale and Palestinian terror is exercised on a much smaller, more intimate scale. Granted it doesn't matter much to a victim whether their family is killed by a gunship or a Qassam. But the numbers tell the story, as now in Gaza: 500 Palestinians, 5 Israelis. The thoroughgoing moralist will say it's crass to bandy numbers about such a matter, but I believe they are an important clue about the power available on either side.

Look at the distortion required by the Washington Post on December 30 to impose a Farmer-Bob-style symmetry in reporting events in Gaza. On the front page are two pictures. One shows an Israeli woman, described as distraught over Hamas rocket attacks. The other shows a Palestinian mother who has lost a child to the Israeli assault, alongside another child who has been wounded. At the time Gazan casualties were pegged at 350, Israeli casualties at four. I'm sure living under the threat of Qassams is no picnic, and I'd probably piss myself repeatedly, but come on - you call this tit-for-tat??

I could go on (as I'm sure you wish I would) about Israeli destruction of anything resembling a Palestinian civil society, which isn't remotely matched by anything the Palestinians or Arabs could do or have done to Israel.

The relentless hunt for symmetry is simply an excuse to throw up one's hands at the whole affair and say "who can say who's guilty or innocent any more? They all have blood on their hands. They'll have to sort it out themselves."

To me that attitude of moral relativism is not simply an abdication of the duty to find whatever we can about what is happening in the world: it is also a willing acceptance of a state of ignorance about what is going on, and as such is also an act of complicity in the crimes that must be ignored or diminished in order to produce the bogus "symmetry" that such views are based on.
J
John R
05 Jan 2009 20:16 Link
If you don't mind, I'll remove those odd symbols from your post.
A
Almohad117 (White Giant)
05 Jan 2009 20:22 Link
Please do!!! Damned if I could figure out why it did that.

Thanks.
A
Almohad117 (White Giant)
05 Jan 2009 20:22 Link
How did u do that?
J
John R
05 Jan 2009 20:32 Link
The current software of the forum doesn't allow special characters. So, when there's a character that doesn't find correspondence here, such as € (euro sign), or ‘ (the quotation mark MS Word uses), we get the those symbols.

You probably wrote your post on Word and when you typed ', Word changed it to it's own variant (‘) because of auto-correct.

If you notice the bar stating the date of each post, at the end there will be an icon resembling a pad with a pencil. If you click there, you can edit your post. Granted I'm the moderator, I can edit everyone's post, so I just exchanged the quotation marks and dashes to a acceptable sign.
A
Almohad117 (White Giant)
05 Jan 2009 20:37 Link
Thanks. I've used that bar a few times to edit my stuff.

I did write in Word, as I knew I had a lot to say. Maybe next time I should try Wordpad or some such?

Anyway thanks again.
J
John R
05 Jan 2009 20:43 Link
Yes. To use Wordpad or Notepad or to turn off Word's auto-correct will prevent those symbols.

No problem.
N
nix001 (Little Upsilon)
05 Jan 2009 20:50 Link
In Africa it is Army V's Army, country man V's country man. As it is all around the world exept for Palistine. In Palestine its occupation forces V's civilians. Civilians V's the most powerful weapons in the world. This is why it's different.
The only way a Palestinian could target a military target was by carrying the bomb to the target themselves. Firing a home made rocket into the general direction of Israel and hitting a school is not targeting. Wake up.

How did we end up with a country as hypicritical as America running the show?
Do as I say, but not as I do.
Be free but on our terms.

Why is America not stopping the murder?
America is about to go into melt down. With being able to show just how hopeless life can realy be, your rulers hope that you wont feel that life for you is hopeless.

As for the Zionists, this ethnic cleansing is being done because:
1) They realy do believe that they are the chosen ones, and like Islamic fundamentalists, have no conscience about taken the lives of the innocent unworthy. They also know that the world has enough problems at the moment, so now would be as good a time as any to break the will of the Palestinian resistance to their unlawful occupation.

I've spoken to alot of religious people from all religions. Nearly all speak of the book of revelations.
Has anyone thought that Afganistan, Iraq and now Palestine is all a plot by the Fundamental Christians who believe the book of revelations to the point where they are willing to create the reason for the destuction and wars that will create the 1000 years of peace that is promised?

But then saying that, for you to think anything other than what your 10 min sound bits say on Fox, BBC, SKY, CNN ect you would have to want to find the truth, which can take you down the road of despair.
Alot of you make me feel sick with the thought that you can't bring yourselves to look beyond these 10 min sound bites.
But then with alot of you being from America I can understand the reluctance to look at issues of the past.

The Past made the Present.
The Past and Present make the Future.
Miss out the Past and you know nothing of the Present.

Wake up America. You created this problem by taking it out of the hands of the British in the Past and by Presently letting Israel do what Germany did.
A
Almohad117 (White Giant)
05 Jan 2009 22:20 Link
Ben-Gurion was the first PM, not Prez as I said. My bad.
J
Jo Jo Hun (Fearless Blue)
05 Jan 2009 23:49 Link
I thought Almohad started with nothing, but I've got him ahead now, scoring increasingly strongly both on substance and on style.
V
Váli (Fearless Blue)
06 Jan 2009 02:12 Link
The Israelis occuppied jordanian, egyptian and syrian land. The palestian state has never existed before now. Many countries that exist today do so on occupied land, turkey, america, arab states in north africa etc....these things happen. The weaker party just has to live with it. This is by no means right but its reality.
Nix sudan is not army versus army, there is government backed islamic militia against african civilians. It is a totally one sided genocide.
For all the bad things israel do, they do not seek genocide.
Palestine is the weaker side here, this they need to realise. Firing rockets into isreal is just defeating themselves. Any idiot knows the way to get your way in democracy is to talk the talk.
The day Hamas stop attacking Israel is the day Hamas gets past israels military. The world will support a peaceful palestine against an aggressive israel, they will not however support a terrorist state against a largely law abiding state.
Hamas has the worlds atttention, fighting now just harms the cause of palestian independence. Remove hamas from power and western aid will flood into palestine. Hamas is the obstacle to peace. The world will make israel except peace if hamas stops attacking israel as they know the conflict fuels world wide terrorism.
The way for palestine to win is to stop fighting.
5
5 Star General (Fearless Blue)
06 Jan 2009 02:44 Link
....
V
Váli (Fearless Blue)
06 Jan 2009 02:47 Link
well said general. All the talk in the world aint going to change a thing.
T
The Grand Poobah
06 Jan 2009 03:00 Link
Vali- The U.N has been sending aide to Palestine. Other relief groups as well. However, Isreal has rammed and detoured aide boats into Palestine.
Besides. What if someone came to you and said "We're gonna need several acres of your land to put people on. Did I mention they're members of a religion that you don't get along with? did I also mention that you will be the treated like a bag of shit in the mean time? And don't believe you have a say in this."


I'd be kinda pissed too.
A
Almohad117 (White Giant)
06 Jan 2009 03:02 Link
Since when is it reasonable to take the position that the weak must cease resistance while the strong have carte blanche to continue what they're doing? Why is the resistance of the weak made out to be the main obstacle to a just solution?

Have you even remotely considered that perhaps the stronger side should stop its attacks if peace is to have a chance? What prevents this idea from entering your head? Have you ever considered that the occupier should perhaps give up its occupation if it expects those fighting against occupation to lay down their arms?

Why do we never hear these thought from you, Vali? Why do we instead hear you lecturing the weak that "these things happen" and they "have to live with it"? Why do you expect and demand that the Palestinians should do what no oppressed people in history has ever done? What kind of warped sensibility solemnly declares that resistance to repression is a bigger problem than the repression itself?

How can you glibly accept the crimes of the powerful as "just the way it is" while insisting that the resistance of the victims - equally inevitable - is the true problem?

What planet do you live on, Vali? And what kind of planet would you be living on where anyone stronger than you could do whatever they wanted to you and your only recourse would be to lie down and take it until some kind-hearted third parties made them stop? Presumably without actually forcibly restraining them, since I imagine you would consider this to be continuing the cycle of violence - so maybe by joining hands in a large circle and singing cum-bai-ya until your attacker gets bored or everyone realizes you're dead and leaves...?

Since it's now firmly established beyond all reasonable doubt that you are indeed a doctor who patches up the victims of suicide bombers, let me restate the thought that your empty, twisted views are probably your way of making sure you're never out of work...

No? Then explain, Vali, if you can. Explain how that mind of yours works these things out!
V
Váli (Fearless Blue)
06 Jan 2009 03:10 Link
I for one do not judge people my religion colour nationlaity etc. Only by their actions. I am a minority in my own country, but I am free to do as I wish within the law. Same as everybody else.
You are naive to think 'aid' goes to those in need. First in line are the power player in hamas etc..Its the same all over the world. Aid just keeps bad cycles going round. Targeted development in peaceful countries gets results. Not misplaced sympathy. The day the palestians start building their own future is the day they will get a future. Supporting Hamas just keeps them where they are.
J
Johanas Bilderburg (Little Upsilon)
06 Jan 2009 03:20 Link
I smell Marxist Dogma at work. Yep. Ok back to arguing.
A
Almohad117 (White Giant)
06 Jan 2009 03:21 Link
A beautiful moment on BBC today. The Israel rep to the UN or some such is being interviewed and is insisting that Hamas rockets must stop before a ceasefire can take place, yada yada yada. The interviewer jumps in: "but this would be inconvenient for you, wouldn't it? Because if Hamas stopped firing rockets, you'd have to stop your attacks?"

Priceless. I actually yelled out "Alright!" It's so great to see Israeli diplomats, who usually get such an easy ride in the media, actually facing a real, tough question. It reminded me of Soviet parliamentarians squirming uncomfortably as they were asked pointed questions by Russian journalists emboldened by the spread of 'glasnost' in the Soviet Union.

Of course the moment won't last, and once Israel decides it's wasted enough civilians and allows a ceasefire everything will go back to the status quo ante, media-wise at least. But it's nice to see Israel getting a bit of actual heat, even if only briefly. We sure as hell don't get that from our media on this side of the pond!

It was also good to see (well, not really) that the BBC have a producer inside Gaza who was able to take us inside a Gaza hospital and blow apart the Israeli BS about there being no humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

(Hmm, I wonder if that hospital is still standing... no matter, since they're all basically out of supplies and pretty soon will be nothing more than morgues anyway.)

And no, Vali, if Hamas rockets stopped, peace would not suddenly break out. The value of the interviewer's question was that it at long last exposed Israel's vested interest in provoking and increasing Hamas militance. A vested interest that is especially strong now, considering that what they're doing to the Gazans is simply an extension of the Israeli election campaign.
A
Almohad117 (White Giant)
06 Jan 2009 03:24 Link
Always ready with a name, JB. You know, if you ran up a flag that said "OUT OF IDEAS" it would actually be more subtle.
V
Váli (Fearless Blue)
06 Jan 2009 03:29 Link
AL...please. To win a fight you only fight against those you can beat. The Palestinians can not defeat israel militarily. The way for palestinians to be free is to stop fighting. Israel does not occupy palestine because palestine does not exist! It has never existed. It is a region not a country. Gaza and the west bank are former areas of jordan and egypt.
The palestians have a chance now for their own country. Stop attacking israel and israel will be made to tow the line.
People have to live with it because they die if they do not. The strong have always taken from the weak. Its reality al not right or wrong just reality. I live on a planet where the strong rule over the weak. Eurpoean settlers defeated the native americans to form america. The turkish defeated the byzantians to form turkey. The arabs defeated the africans to form the north african countries. Russia, australia, china, all the south american countries...need I go on? The strong rule this world. The losers adapt or die.
The palestians can have their own country if they stop supporting Hamas. The day palestian is free from Hamas is the day they start building the future. You wont like it AL but its the easiest way forward.
J
Johanas Bilderburg (Little Upsilon)
06 Jan 2009 03:34 Link
I have an idea. Pave Gaza over. It would make a nice parking lot. Problem solved.

But it would mean less Neo-Marxist posers arguing passionately over a region they could not walk the streets in alone without being a target for kidnapping or execution.


I am going to watch Jihad Mickey again.....

That always makes me laugh.
A
Almohad117 (White Giant)
06 Jan 2009 03:35 Link
News flash for Vali: Israel has blockaded humanitarian supplies from Gaza for 18 months. They only lifted the blockade (partially) a day before their attacks.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you'd blame Hamas and the Palestinians for this too.

But dammit, I keep hoping. I'm pullin' for ya, buddy, I really am... we'll de-program you yet. Put on another pot of coffee, doctor.

Incidentally, the Geneva Convention defines such a blockade as an act of war. So this great 'truce' and 'ceasefire' that everyone says was broken by Hamas was in fact a situation where one side pursued aggression while the other side was expected to keep its hands in its pockets.

Hey Vali, that's just the kind of thing you think we all need more of in this world, isn't it? I guess that it must have been a good time for you while it lasted!
A
Almohad117 (White Giant)
06 Jan 2009 03:37 Link
And so Channel JB is formally off the air. He was just calling them in at the end there anyway.