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Forum General By the will of man (Kebir Blue)

By the will of man (Kebir Blue)

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FarmerBob
05 Feb 2009 15:02 Link
<!-Quote-!>Quote:

C. Dirt has spent a significant amount of time in Cuba and it IS NOT as bad as our Gov't says it is.
They are #1 in the world in Medical response and have the BEST in Hurricane response..in the world...Way better than ours. /see Katrina <!-/Quote-!>



According to whom? The Official: I Have All The Final Answers Society?

Kids.LOL
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nix001
05 Feb 2009 15:47 Link
Hav'nt the USA done everything they could to make life difficult for Cuba?
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The Grand Poobah (Golden Rainbow)
06 Feb 2009 10:11 Link
@FB- :-p

@nix- oh yeah.
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Darke Katt (Fearless Blue)
06 Feb 2009 10:17 Link
What the USA has done to Cuba has essentially made the country self-sufficient.
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Matthew Haataja (Little Upsilon)
08 Feb 2009 04:57 Link
Wow... thats all I have to say. I don't think these response's even dignify an inelligent response, so I won't give one. Your idiology has made itt impossible for you to see the truth, take your head out of the textbook and look at real life.

From My Shrine in The Northwoods,

Yooper
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The Grand Poobah
08 Feb 2009 08:25 Link
been doing that the whole time. With unbiased eyes.
Being younger, the world looks a lot different from down here.
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Johanas Bilderburg (Kebir Blue)
09 Feb 2009 01:59 Link
I don't care if Castro's farts cure cancer to be honest. A totalitarian state sucks. And despite the assurances of such experts Cuba is a totalitarian state.

I have great health care. I pay for insurance.
Nor do I wish to pay for your health insurance. Get a job.

I don't need or want a benevolent liberal overlord to take care of my every need. Nor do I want the huge European tax levels to pay for it. And the suggestion of such a overhaul to our system of government makes me load up my rifle and prepare for the revolution.

Secession is the only answer to Socialism.
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Angus88 (Little Upsilon)
09 Feb 2009 04:09 Link
Uh... what Johanas? Americans don't expect everyone to pay for their own education, nor care if they can. Why? Because its in the nations economic and moral interest to do so, to have an educated population. People aren't expected to hire out police officers like mercenaries (might happen with corrupt police officer maybe). If your house burns down the fire department doesn't hand you a bill. You pay welfare to disadvantaged people that have economic trouble for whatever reason, because it is in the nations interest (even if people that can't think long term disagree). "Free marketeers" bailout corporations that have failed under the free market, due to political and corporate shortsightedness and destructive self interest. All these benefits are socialistic, I doubt you will find many conservatives supporting Reaganomics complaining that only people supporting a war should have to pay military tax, that people only for drug Prohibition should have to pay for the war on drugs. Or that when welfare is abolished only people robbed by welfare recipients which are now forced to adleast steal to support themselves (not every unemployed person can find a job but just don't want to you will actually find that type in the minority), should contract out police, pay their muggers legal fees, and possible jail term. Yet somehow only rightist America stands against national funded healthcare.

Privatized healthcare hurt American businesses competitiveness because they need to provide health plans to employees in some cases, it hurts the majority of the people at the benefit of the few, since it is in the health insurances interest to deny treatment whenever possible instead of treating people when needed. It hurts the consumer based economy, by causing health and pharmaceutical costs to become artificially inflated to generate profits, reducing disposable income for the majority of Americans, which in turn hurts jobs that could be generated from this extra cash. And after all isn't that the basis of Reaganomics? Increase the general populations disposable income and in turn generate growth that is ment to generate government income to counter additional costs incurred by the government.

Also GDP and growth is a terrible way of determining economic development in my opinion. I think standard of living, purchasing power, national debt - projected growth of income, and employment. Would be a greater determination of economic achievement, after all whats the point of being the richest nation on earth if a significant population lives in poverty. And growth has to peak at some point (if it hasn't already), which then the communist manifesto prophecy might come true (I'm not a communist).
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Angus88 (Little Upsilon)
09 Feb 2009 04:18 Link
I might add, many Americans die from treatable ailments not because of the quality of the nations healthcare but the affordability of it. Or the evil selfishness of an insurance company that denies it, or a government that doesn't have a problem with it.
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Angus88 (Little Upsilon)
09 Feb 2009 04:30 Link
Hehe poo

"If we had a secret police we wouldn't know about it...hence...secret".


Shhh man don't tell anyone but I know this organization called the secret service, they protect the president.
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The Grand Poobah (Golden Rainbow)
09 Feb 2009 04:32 Link
facts-
number of US citizens(average) killed each year due to terrorism- 68

# of US citizens who killed each year by heart disease- 400K+

$ spent on war on terror each year- $500B
$ spent on heart disease research and prevention-$1-2B


Now lets talk about pork barrel spending....um...yeah. How about that war on terror.

If the average college education were to cost $50K, then each year we could send 10million people to school each year. I think we have a problem here.
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Matthew Haataja (Kebir Blue)
09 Feb 2009 04:46 Link
Poobah,

Facts: the Constitution of the US provides for the use of funds for the defense. It does not call for $'s to be spent on heart disease research or prevention, or education. Now as far as the war in Iraq is concerned or the War on terror in general whether or not we agree on it's necessity I think all agree it has been mismanaged and and as bungled as or defense is in general... too affected by defense contractor's special interest groups, Pac's, and flat out corrupt politicians at the highest levels of government. This being said, I think even as a member of the military tat the budget is to high for a post cold war nation to support. This does not excuse the pork barrel spending encouraged by both "conservatives" and liberals of any party.

From my Shrine in the Northwoods,

Yooper
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Angus88 (Little Upsilon)
09 Feb 2009 04:58 Link
Well I have no quarrels with student loans. Providing they don't need start paying their loan off until they reach a set income, not sure if thats the system you have in America, but in Australia the government covers your university costs but expects to be repaid and charges a small amount of interest, and is linked with CPI (basically an indexation of living costs). University education is semi essential, and I consider it an investment in your future. But we need people at the bottom as well there may be oversupply of university qualified if it were made free. But should be considered making certain degrees free if it projected there will be a shortage.

The previous leader of Australia was the most conservative rightist leader Australia had for a long time, over his 11 year reign he made almost no commitment to added investment in public education (he couldn't hand dollars over quick enough to private schools), and cut back vocational education, and kept government loan supported places for medical degrees to a minimum, even while knowing the population was set to age in the future incurring more demand on the health system, while changing slowly our health system to emulate America's by cutting regulation of medicine costs and subsidizing private health insurance (strange how they only support the free market when it convinces them). Only recently are we starting to feel the effect of this republican's (really this guy was as republican as someone could get) governance. The health is up to shit with shortages across the board, trades are experiencing shortages, and over the last 7 years, public student performance in mathematics, sciences, and literacy has declined. Ad least this has generated popular support for socialism.
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Angus88 (Little Upsilon)
09 Feb 2009 05:01 Link
I think poo's point was. If you can find money to kill people you can find money to improve your nation.
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Matthew Haataja (Kebir Blue)
09 Feb 2009 05:32 Link
That maybe true, that if you can find money to kill you should be able to find money to help improve the nation. That is not what I am argueing at all however. I am saying that that is not what the constitution of the us says is the responsibility of the federal government. The tenth amendment reads and I quote "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." now if you have a problem with this amendment their are ways of having it changed. But since currently no amendment does this I see all laws infringing on this constitutional amendment as unconstitutional. South Dakota v. Dole is the precedence that many such laws are based upon, and I feel that was a poor judgment by the supreme court. Anyways it doesn't look like anything is going to change soon so this is a non issue at the moment.

From My Shrine in the Northwoods,

Yooper
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Angus88 (Little Upsilon)
09 Feb 2009 05:50 Link
That amendment sound quite reasonable. And goes perfectly with the libertarian philosophy. Things are a lot different, I think the founding fathers of the American revolution would be rolling in their grave right now, to see how their country ended up more like a feudal theocratic state then an anarchic oriented republic (I said more not exactly). I have no problem with free trade libertarianism (but thats not how the donkey or the elephant govern anymore), I just think with carefully planned government oversight can improve the nation as a whole. The real problem with failed socialism is the leader forgets why they support socialism and automatically assumes that anything the government doesn't control isn't doing it right. I can't comment on South Dakota v dole but I'll look it up.
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Matthew Haataja (Kebir Blue)
09 Feb 2009 06:00 Link
See the nice part about federalism is the states have the right to provide benefits, then I'd have a choice to try and change what I don't like or move, but with the national government assuming more and more responsibility it leaves the individual with less influence.

From my Shrine in the Northwoods,

Yooper
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Angus88 (Little Upsilon)
09 Feb 2009 06:09 Link
In this case the conditions laid out by the supreme court made the decision ok. And generally I agree with the taxing and spending clause. But good things come with moderation and I understand concerns, that would come with socialism. Its a tricky process go too free market and you get this shitstorm right now, go too libertarian and the government has to power to protect assets with this current shitstorm, go too socialist and you end up exacerbating the issues you care about or even end up with communism.
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Angus88 (Little Upsilon)
09 Feb 2009 06:15 Link
What I ment by feudalism is see little difference between it and a federal republic. Feudalism ment the king or federal government knows best maybe I didn't use the right word. Does what I just said just contradict what I commented on South Dakota v dole, well yeah kind of. But I don't think its a black and white issue. On the other side people could say that the federal government does know best since it is the majority voice of the republic. Kind of flawed since you only have two choices though.

There is no absolute right and wrong on government control and intervention. I base my opinion on circumstances, and intended effect of intervention and control.
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The Grand Poobah (Golden Rainbow)
09 Feb 2009 06:59 Link
My point being- terrorism is sham. not even a threat.

Heart disease-very real

A shrinking educated class- extremely real

Dumb people- an epidemic for our current generations.

solution- Vote Poobah in 2012
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Matthew Haataja (Kebir Blue)
11 Feb 2009 03:09 Link
Ok Poobah, terrorism is a sham, that's why I spent a year in Iraq talking to the people there about their lives, extremists , and yes to much or to little presence by the Americans in different regions of the country. You have no clue whether or not they exist, but I do I have seen psychopathic religious nuts, blow themselves up because they want something changed about their government, take into consideration that their is a brainwashing in effect right now of many young middle easterners. Take into consideration that many religious leaders in Iraq still have power by preaching hate daily in the mosque. I heard it with my own ears so don't tell me that doesn't happen either. Oh yeah, I think it was Nix saying how awesome Cuba is. In that case, why don't you start preaching your message and move there. Nobody likes the guy on the pulpit that won't back up his words with actions. If you don't like it there, don't give me a call because I'm sure it won't be to hard to float to another chunk of land.

From my Hideaway Shrine in the Northwoods,

Yooper
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nix001 (Fearless Blue)
11 Feb 2009 03:24 Link
Nay Matthew. Was not me. All I said was 'Hav'nt the USA done everything they could to make life difficult for Cuba?'
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Matthew Haataja (Kebir Blue)
11 Feb 2009 04:28 Link
Aye, Nix my bad, I believe that was someone else.
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Angus88
11 Feb 2009 06:52 Link
How are armies supposed to destroy an ideology? History indicates military action against causes only strengthens them. How many times can we make the same mistake before we understand.
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The Grand Poobah (Golden Rainbow)
11 Feb 2009 11:58 Link
um...matthew...will you come here for a minute?

/me puts my arm around him.

You see matthew, people have varying opinions. This is true. Sometimes peoples opinions are disagreed upon by other people and sometimes they get heated.
You must not let it overrule logic. Saying that someone should LEAVE the country for expressing their views is actually the MOST unpatriotic thing one can do. Freedom of expression is THE entire basis of our country. Some may forget this.

"You have no clue whether or not they exist, but I do I have seen psychopathic religious nuts, blow themselves up because they want something changed about their government, take into consideration that their is a brainwashing in effect right now of many young middle easterners."

um...we attacked them. hundreds of thousands have died because of us. YOU EVER WONDER WHY THEY DON'T LIKE US? Remember a little quote like "Violence breeds violence"? Do you think we are more popular now than before? Do you really believe that we are winning the hearts and minds of the middle east by killing and supporting the killing of their people? You really think our shit don't stink and we got attacked because they just decided that they don't like us?
It doesn't work that way.
I admitt, I haven't been to Iraq. I, however, have strongly apposed this war since before it began. It is and never was our business. I can, however, understand, that if someone dropped a bomb on my house and killed my family, I would be killing them. So Of course they preach hatred and mistrust. We haven't earned their trust and rightfully so.

now let me throw you a pitch.
Have you been to Cuba? Have you talked to the people?

Now you see the Hipocracy of your above statement.
I hope you know that it is a sad day for America when A SOLDIER will tell someone to leave the country for expressing the very rights you fought for.

"How are armies supposed to destroy an ideology? History indicates military action against causes only strengthens them. How many times can we make the same mistake before we understand."-angus

Well, they don't really want to destroy the ideology. More like stoke the flames.
it's the natural resources they really want.
crazy irrational America haters gives them a reason to be there.