By the will of man (Kebir Blue)

National Socialism, Greater Japanese CoProsperity Sphere, World Communism, Greater Serbia, and The Greater French Empire.

One might conclude that violence or the threat of violence settled those ideologies quite thoroughly.

Hey Poobah,

I did not mean to tell you to to leave, for I love all my fellow Americans greatly no matter what their political or religious views. Also I have not been to Cuba, so you are correct all my sources are from secondhand knowledge but even the 3rd source sources which are pretty independent have led me to believe their economy isn't what I'd classify as "great". It sounds like you have intimate knowledge of it, so I'd like to hear what it is you like about their economy so much.

From my Shrine in the Northwoods,

Yooper

P.S. I was in Iraq to stoke the flames? That's not what I got out of it... go ahead go call me stupid and young, tell me that I fell for all the propaganda, but do that after you talk to a few native Iraq is and ask how they feel about the Americans troops. In fact ask more than one two, look for a representative group of Iraqis and I think you'll find as I did, that they generally appreciated my presence.

lol. If it would be hipocracy for me to call you stupid and young. and our soldiers, for the most part, don't stoke the flames. People like the Bush administration did an excellent job of that.
I haven't talked to an Iraqi citizen, but I have more than a few friends who are over there or have returned. One in fewer pieces than when he left.


Cuba's economy isn't the greatest...but as you ALL can see, neither is ours. This arguement started because I said "Cuba's not as bad as our media states."
I was mainly trying to root out misconceptions. I know I may live in the realm of misconceptions, but my reverance for Human life is not one, nor should it ever be considered one.

@FB- War is inexcuseable. it should only be a last resort. I am not talking about appeasement either, but all diplomatic and economic angles should be tried in an attempt to prevent the loss of life that goes with war.
on the subject of Ideology- what about that big bag of BS that's the "We are American, German, Israeli, French and/or British and do what we want" ideology? or the "Make as much money at all costs" ideology? What about "manifest Destiny"? We all know how that ended up.
point being- an ideology doesn't die. It changes its costume and reemerges. (Japanese became capitalist leaders and profiters.)
An Ideology of the people and by the people cannot die. It cannot be forgotten and the more you try to stamp it out, the more the people who support it are going to scream. Hitlers Ideology still exists. the Serbian Ideology still exists. Time is the only enemy of ideology. war and suppression only give fuel to that fire.


/side note- the capitalism-communism conflict is purely economic....the dumbest reason to kill each other.

"Hey, lets kill each other because we spend our money differently!"

/another side note- Time to start "Poobah's Bongs not bombs program". We drop bongs on the middle east...yup I said it.

Hell get them high, doesn't bother me, also drop some on my place.

Yo, them boy's don't need your bongs. Them boys have their own. Trust...........them boys blaze up the Leb.........With filters when not on the bong.....Rude

Nix is right, they have plenty already, in fact it is where the majority are produced I believe, some very nice ones i might add.

I actually know that most of the high quality Glass "Water Pipes" or bongs are made from Eureka, California up to Southern Oregon.

We should trade stashes with the Iraqis in an effort for peace. I think it's better then exchanging blows that only result in the dead youth of each nation.

"One might conclude that violence or the threat of violence settled those ideologies quite thoroughly".

At what cost? Both economically and morally,

You need to be very brutal to stamp out all the people that support an ideology, in this day and age with modern communication its not a viable option. All using violence will do is bring fourth supporters of this ideology from across the globe, no matter how wrong the ideology may be. Unless your willing to commit mass genocide at the drop of a pin then your efforts are going to be wasted.

At the end of the day, you have blown your countries budget that could have been used to improve life not destroy it, your conscience questioning yourself, and no results to show.

Oh and yeah more weed. No one will have the energy to blow themselves up when their stoned.

Hmmmm. By your reasoning, The Macedonian Greek Empire lives on as do the Roman, Holy Roman, Ottoman, Egyptian, Hittite, Assyrian, Carthanginian, Mongol,etc., etc.?

My previous examples and these latest all have one commonality: Militant, Expansionist Nationalism.

Most societies have undergone a period of it and most were defeated(internally,and/or externally) or simply evolved past it.

Or is it your contention that the Japanese as a people are intent upon again dominating East Asia militarily?

The Chinese might have a word or two to say about that.

FB- you no longer need a military to bring someone to their knees.

My comment about the Japanese was about their capitalist economic expansion. It is like the former warrior ideology. Except instead of how many heads you've taken, it's how much money you make.

Again by your reasoning, the United States is locked in mortal combat with our former enemies and allies? Who is the victor in such a struggle and how does one define victory?
Is it a dollar, yen, or euro amount?

And how do we define "to their knees?"
When a nation has sufficient economic power over another that they may modify the others' domestic or foreign policies by diktat?

"Again by your reasoning, the United States is locked in mortal combat with our former enemies and allies?"

never even hinted that.
I was refering to ideology on the social level. I tend to exclude political bodies in my references. They have their own Ideology.

I was refering to the fact that if a generation is subjected to a particular ideology, that ideology will resonate through several following generation. Even if the inventors of said ideology no longer live.

let me site my sources-
*The Neo nazi movement.
*KKK and AB in the U.S.
*The "Arab Revolution"
*Religion in general.

like I said. Time is the only thing that will smother an such ideologies. War only stokes the flames.

"And how do we define "to their knees?""
embargos and acts of market manipulation.

So it wasn't Von Blucher and Wellesley that finished off the fervent French nationalism that had swept across Europe under the military command of Monsieur Bonaparte, but rather....time?

Then of course, Phoenician ideology of command of the Mediterranean perished not at the hands of the Legions under Scipio Aemilianus at the conclusion of the Third Punic War, but rather died of old age?

I woke up this morning, looked out the window, and the world was still there. I see no crisis. The sky is still up above, the ground is still beneath my feet. Go about your busines,all is well.

Think of the military conquest as a hedge clipper.

You snip off the head of a plant and the body still survives. at least, for a while. Unless it's a rose bush.

When Bonaparte lost, his drive for his ideology stopped expanding. BUT, The French still believe they should rule the world. The ideology isn't as fervent as it used to be.


now I will show you my point using a historical event.

Rome and the Huns.

The Roman's attempted to indoctrinate the Huns. They tried bullying the Huns, and yes, even killing their leaders. But if you know history, you know how that ended.

How about another one?

This one may be contriversial.

The Nazi's tried their hardest to exterminate the Jewish Ideology...and...yeah...didn't work. It only garnered support for the Jewish Ideology.


Like I said before. Military involvement only gives resolve to an invaded lands ideology.
You may destroy their armies. Burn their cities and kill their leaders. You may also forget that most crucial building block for all ideologies....The people. Like I have said repeatedly- after the inventors are dead, the children will carry the ideology for decades, centuries and even millenia.
once again. Time is the only thing that will bury an ideology. (next to mass geonocide, which really is iffy and you may actually create a bigger problem.)

Like I said bob. Its not the age where circumnavigating the globe in 80 days would be an impossible feat. Our soldiers aren't equipped with Pilium and tower shields, a phalanx tactic would prove useless, and news can travel around much more freely.

With the emergence of the process called the scientific method, a great amount of progress we humans have achieved. If military action was never truly effective in the past why will it be any more effective now with these new conditions?

As the ability and range to communicate increases, the less effective aggressive actions and propaganda will be. This is why dictators hate freedom. You also see why people with ideologies that are unable to compete in the intellectual arena actively seek to dismiss and censor all opposition.

Tell yourselves that all you like, but human beings remain human beings. The cultural evolution to which you refer is a very recent developement not matched in most of the world.

There will be much more war before it becomes the norm.

Ideology as a way of thinking is meaningless. Only the means and will to force that ideolgy on others is relevant in this context.

Those societies who forfeit their means and will to defend their own ideologies and systems will find them subverted or conquered by others who haven't. That's the real history.

Beat your swords into plowshares. Someone will always make a new sword and slaughter you with it.

Just sticking my nose in.

"The Nazi's tried their hardest to exterminate the Jewish Ideology...and...yeah...didn't work. It only garnered support for the Jewish Ideology."

I believe the Jews ended up on the "winning" side of that war. As the losers, the Nazi "ideology" HAS been largely wiped out.

"the Nazi "ideology" HAS been largely wiped out."

That's a load of BS. Open your eyes. Just they other day someone scratched a swastika into a mirror at work. It still thrives under the surface and only a sugar coated existence can hide that fact.

"Beat your swords into plowshares. Someone will always make a new sword and slaughter you with it."

The educated actually, always prevail.
If a majority of the world were educated, we wouldn't have that problem.

If military victory only fanned the flames of ideology, we would see Nazi ideology in control, not some kid scratching a swastika on a mirror in hiding (and how do you know it was not a devout hindu). I think you are forgetting Clausewitz's famous line "Der Krieg ist eine blosse Fortsetzung der Politik mit anderen Mitteln". War is not a means to itsself but is used as a tool to get your way, and it can be used to defeat a people or an ideology. Farmer Bob has covered only a few small samples of that in history. I would add slavery, is that still around after being defeated militarily in the US? It would not have disappeared otherwise, and Obama would not likely be President(even though his father is African, not African-American). All the cultural forces in the world would not have brought Southerners to abandon slavery without the force of arms. Those who do not embrace strength and become strong are forced to submit or live at the whim of those who are strong.

The industrial revolution was making slavery obsolete anyways. AND the civil war WAS NOT fought over slavery. The Emancipation Proclimation was infact a political move and means to destabalize the southern economy.
Must I remind you that even Lincoln owned slaves. Robert E. Lee thought it was an "abomination" but chose to fight for his native Virginia. As you can see there are vast differences in the reasoning behind that war.
Must I also remind you that the ideology birthed during the Civil war still thrives in areas of our country.
War may kill an ideology. I guess it is possible, however, war also super charges an ideology.

Case in point-
The Crusades: all of them spanning that 100yr stretch. Clearly, they didn't succeed in stamping out the Islamic barbarians.
Check and Mate ;)

"That's a load of BS. Open your eyes. Just they other day someone scratched a swastika into a mirror at work. It still thrives under the surface and only a sugar coated existence can hide that fact."

And you're comparing this to the 1930's and 40's?? I purposefully added "largely" wiped out because I recognize that it maintains an insignificant presence today.

"AND the civil war WAS NOT fought over slavery"

Yes it was. "States rights" was a veil for "slavery rights".

"War also super charges an ideology"

Agreed. But that doesn't mean you should avoid war so as not to "supercharge" an ideology. Particularly if you're dealing with an aggressive ideology.

"The Crusades: all of them spanning that 100yr stretch. Clearly, they didn't succeed in stamping out the Islamic barbarians."

Was the purpose of the Crusades to stamp out Islamic barbarians? Or was it to control a region?

This is your Check and Mate. Again you cite a failed military campaign (multiples in this case) to support your claim. HAD the crusades succeeded and HAD the objective been to remove "Islamic barbarians" and HAD that not happened then you may have something to support your case.

As it is, your argument is flawed. There are probably better examples to support it.

BC