JERUSALEM

My thoughts and prayers go out to the Children of Jerusalem and Bethlehem.

Happy Christmas.

Oi Saturnalia!

if there is going to be a capital of humanity, it should be jerusalem. just think about it. it was a major site since Jesus was there, the romans burned down the second temple and ransacked the place. but the jews rebuilt it. that of las vegas should be the capital of humanity.

i guess the current capital of humanity is london, it seems like it anyways

either that or maybe shanghai

jerusalem does have a good central location geographically

Las Vegas would be best. Why?

A Capital means a place where politicians congregate, and what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

I say we make Rogue River, Oregon the capital of humanity. Small town, about 2000 people. Everyone will bitch and moan about any other selection.

How can we let Jerusalem be run by the Zionists? Especialy with what we are witnessing from them now towards the people of Gazza. The world has asked for a seize fire to help the thousands of wounded and dying, yet the Zionists have refused.
What is it at the moment?...400+ Gazzans dead and thousands wounded over 3 days of bombardment and 4 Jews dead. What are the Zionists worried about? Maybe 400 dead is'nt enough for them at this stage. Maybe they have set themselves a target of 1000 dead before they will concider the innocent in all of this. What ever it is, to me the Jews have shown themselves to be aligned with the Zionists. Which will no doubt have a long lasting effect upon how the world will look at them from now on. Because of the Hollocaust the Zionists/Jews/Israelis have been aloud to do things that no other nation would be. But now they have crossed the line of reason and all compassion the world had for them will now be dissolved. I hope the USA realises that any support shown for the Jews of Israel will only bring them pain.
Eye for an eye.
How the USA can condone such actions is beyond me and I hope soon the Good people of the USA will make their feelings known to their leaders.

Happy New Year.

Nix001

What do you think the USA would do if Mexico or Canada would start firing rockets over the border? I highly doubt that we would just "negotiate". You say an "eye for an eye", well, that's exactly what Israel is giving the people that are firing rockets. If you think that Hamas is the morally superior party here, you're sadly mistaken. Israel's actions are retribution for what's being done to them. Hamas is lucky that they're going this easy on them.

What would Canada do if USA claimed Parts of Canada as theirs?

I'll be back in a bit. I'm just gonna take my dog for a walk around the park and think about life for a bit.

Ummmm.....read your history. It wasn't the USA that took the territory away from the palestinians. It was the world community. I'm not saying that was right or wrong, but if someone tries to hit me, I'm going to hit them back. To hell with what other people think, I'm not going to take that from someone, chances are that you wouldn't either.

Israel has tried to make concessions, but there is no compromise with these people. You give them an inch and they try to take a foot. Or, for those you use the metric system, a centimeter to a meter.

Nix, man, have some respect for the rest of us. We peons have our opinions, and our rights, too. You're telling us where countries should have their capitals. You're telling us how countries should conduct their foreign policies and their wars. You're telling us not only that "humanity" should have a capital, but where it should be. You're telling us what the issues facing humanity are: "war, no, global warming, yes, etc". You're even telling God who and who not to resurrect. Man, you're not the boss of us. Take a few steps back and have some humility, thanks.

Happy new year GJC & Jo JO JO
Humility:
The state or quality of being humble; freedom from pride and arrogance; lowliness of mind; a modest estimate of one's own worth; a sense of one's own unworthiness through imperfection and sinfulness; self-abasement; humbleness.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An act of submission or courtesy.

I GOOGLED the above.

In times of peace, humility is the better way.
In times of war, as stated above, humility is the worst way.

I did not create these problems, I just live with them. And as my sense of self worthiness is greater than the unworthiness, I feel the need to solve these problems. If more people felt pride in themselves they would then feel that life is not only worth living, but also worth saving.
Then we would have peace and for the sake of peace I would be humble.


GJC.
Great Britain had an agreement with the palistinians and the Arab world in the late 1920's, I think, on how many normal Jews (farmers, builders etc), could settle in Palestine to seed the creation of Israel. This was going to be a state created over hundreds of years. Through births and a steady population increase, over time, so to assimilate themselves (as they had been doing for hundreds of years around the world) into the surrounding population.
All was well up until the holocaust. But once that horrific act had been done the need for a Jewish home land was put on top of the world agenda. The Americans wanted mass immigration to the Holy Land, but Great Britain said no, as it would go against the agreement made and due to the problems that would ensue because of it. With that and with support by the American, Jews and the up coming Zionist movement illegally flooded into the territory, creating what we have today.

i think its pretty obvious that what israel is doing right now is not only deeply immoral and in fact counter to israel's own long term self interest, but is against all world norms and laws.

Here's my 2 cents...

After the recent cease-fire expired, it was Hamas, not Israel, that resumed launching attacks. Hamas launched attacks on Dec 24th, 2008, and Israel waited over two days before responding with air attacks on Dec 27th.

Why should Israel immediately agree to a cease-fire now? Should Hamas expect to have a cease-fire whenever they decide it's convenient for them? I'm sure Israel would have chosen to not have Hamas launch missiles in the first place. I think Israel is trying to demonstrate to Hamas that it may have the power to start hostilities, but it cannot dictate when Israel will cease hostilities.

About the death toll on each side... If Hamas had more accurate & greater capabilities, isn't it likely many more Israelis would be dead? The only difference is that Israel attempts to focus on Hamas-related targets, while Hamas launches missiles indiscriminately and hides weapons in civilian areas.

How is Israel supposed to negotiate with a fractured Palestinian leadership? Fatah is in charge in the West Bank, and Hamas in Gaza. And Hamas, of course, still advocates for the destruction of Israel. Hard to make peace with someone who still clings to the idea of your total destruction.

I grieve for the Palestinian people who are subjected to some of the harshest living conditions on the planet in Gaza. It's too bad that Fatah's mismanagement and reputation for corruption gave Hamas some traction among the people.

The historical baggage of this region will make a permanent peace settlement difficult but not impossible. While moderate leaders may be able to reach agreement, the extreme factions of each religious/ethnic group will decry the negotiators as "traitors" for giving something up.

Just a note... Referring to the "Jew" or "Zionist" this or that has antisemitic overtones and only weakens your argument.

Hi Pesco. You said 'Hard to make peace with someone who still clings to the idea of your total destruction.'

The Zionists have been destroying palestine and killing Palestinians for 60 years. For the past God knows how many months the Gazans have been kept under conditions of a concentration camp. You have to remember, most of the Gazans are refugees. Thrown out of their homes and off their land by the Zionists. Would you want peace?

You also said, 'Just a note... Referring to the "Jew" or "Zionist" this or that has antisemitic overtones and only weakens your argument.'

This is what happens when you create a state for one kind of people. Do they not refer to Israel as the JEWish state?

Do I not note the difference between a JEW and a ZIONIST?

"The Zionists have been destroying palestine and killing Palestinians for 60 years. For the past God knows how many months the Gazans have been kept under conditions of a concentration camp. You have to remember, most of the Gazans are refugees. Why would they want peace?
"

This has been going on far longer than 60 years. This all stems back to the day of Abraham and has turned into the Hatfiedes and McCoys. Religious idealogy split and THATS when the war started.

Hi Nix,
About half of the Palestinians are descended from those who lived in what is now Israel-proper. Unless you are proposing that the Jewish people abandon Israel, I really don't think the Palestinian people getting what their grandparents had in Israel is realistic. What the world community has proposed is a Palestinian state comprised of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with exact boundaries to be negotiated. The end of the Jewish state of Israel just isn't an option. I think Palestinians should be compensated for lands lost in Israel. If the Palestinians can't accept this in principle, then I think their suffering will continue for a long, long time. This has been true ever since Arafat walked away from the Camp David peace talks in 2000.

Why would they want peace? Maybe so they and their families don't die, perhaps. Especially if you're in the weaker position militarily and economically. At least, that's what this game has taught me.

You'll have to forgive me, I'm not sure what the custom is wherever you are writing from. In the media I see and read, the actual terms "Jew" and "Zionist" do have antisemitic overtones. "Jewish", however similar, is different, and is an acceptable term. I can't say why this is, but I'm just letting you know so that you understand how people may interpret your comments.

You may be better off referring to moderate versus ultra-orthodox Israelis.

I did'nt know that. I'll heed your advice in future references.
I also don't know what the custom is wherever you are writing from. But occupation from where I'm from is a crime. And as shown in Northern Ireland, if you don't play by the occupied rules you will forever meet resistance.
You said, 'Why would they want peace? Maybe so they and their families don't die, perhaps. Especially if you're in the weaker position militarily and economically.'

Try telling that to the Ewoks.

'What the world community has proposed'

You want to have a look at the United Nations thread. Theres another one aswell, I'll look for it, where we discuss how the world community has no say in what Israel does.

Did you just compare the Palestinians to the Ewoks?! I am amused.

I partially disagree with what you say about occupier rules... that if you don't play by the occupier's rules you will forever meet resistance. It is true that a nation's people shouldn't just roll over, but it's also true that perpetual violence isn't going to solve anything.

Ghandi and Martin Luther King, Jr. found another way to claim the moral high ground while still showing their protest. The fall of communism was for the most part bloodless. I know it's easy for me to just say this, but if the Palestinians adopted nonviolent methods they would probably have their own independent country by now.

Any response to my comment about the Camp David peace talks in 2000?

I can't refer to every single UN resolution since 1947 on the topic. But I am referring to the most recent peace initiatives such as the roadmap for peace and the Annapolis accord.

To get back to the heart of your post, I do envision an international Jerusalem. I don't see it happening in the near future, however. I think the first thing is an independent Gaza & West Bank. Not sure how East Jerusalem is going to factor into things, but nobody will be willing to call all of Jerusalem an international city for at least a generation, in my view.

Crap.

It's so easy to lecture the Palestinians on the virtues of nonviolence when Israeli rockets aren't raining down on you...

As far as I'm concerned they have an absolute right to fire as many Qassams as they can. Nobody in the world gives a shit about Palestinian lives or rights so it's up to them to decide what to do about the horrific conditions the Israelis impose on them. They've shown a lot of maturity and restraint so far, but enough is enough.

Happy New Year to you, Nix. My resolution is to let no patently absurd statement by seemingly intelligent people go by uncontested.

"In times of peace, humility is the better way.
In times of war, as stated above, humility is the worst way."

Absurd, on the face of it. Humility has its place during peace, and during war. Arrogance too.

Further, when you say "times of war," you're not referring to yourself being in a war. You're talking about other people, someplace on Earth, being at war. So you're saying that no one should ever be humble, since there have always been wars going on someplace. What a statement to make!

"I did not create these problems, I just live with them. And as my sense of self worthiness is greater than the unworthiness, I feel the need to solve these problems."

You're not that powerful. No one is. You physically cannot solve everyone's problems. It's impossible. Most of the problems you describe cannot be "solved." If you could help, in small but real ways, some real people to solve or manage or cope with one or a couple of the situations you write about, that would be real helpful to those people, maybe to all of us. If you could play a key role in helping many people with one of those situations, wow, you'd be a great man...Ghandi, Salk, Nix, wow.

"If more people felt pride in themselves they would then feel that life is not only worth living, but also worth saving."

I agree. I wish the guy on the other thread who says humans have no more right to live than do viruses and fungi would read that.

"Then we would have peace and for the sake of peace I would be humble."

You said before that during times of war humility is the worst way. Now you say that to get to peace you would be humble. That's a contradiction, nonsense!

Sorry man, nothing personal, I just feel Logic and Reason aren't getting their due deference this year.

And Almohad, what does this mean,

"It's so easy to lecture the Palestinians on the virtues of nonviolence when Israeli rockets aren't raining down on you..."

The guy said "I know it's easy for me to just say this, but if the Palestinians adopted nonviolent methods they would probably have their own independent country by now." He wasn't lecturing Palestinians. This isn't a forum for reaching Palestinians. There aren't more than a handful of Palestinians reading this. The guy was discussing this issue with people here, who are overwhelmingly non-Palestinians. He was stating his opinion about things, not lecturing anyone. And he already said "It's so easy for me to say this," so you didn't have to say it. Didn't you read what he wrote? You just repeated what he said.

"As far as I'm concerned they have an absolute right to fire as many Qassams as they can.

Your opinion.

"Nobody in the world gives a shit about Palestinian lives or rights so it's up to them to decide what to do about the horrific conditions the Israelis impose on them.

What's the difference whether anyone gives a shit about them or not? Of course it's up to them to decide what to do about their conditions! It's up to everyone to decide what to do about their conditions! Why wouldn't it be up to them to do something about their conditions? Are the Palestinian people feeble? Incompetent? Are their feelings easily hurt? They can't figure out how to live normal lives and support themselves like other people do? If anyone cared about them, you know what, they STILL should decide what to do about their conditions. Just like the Israelis, who should also decide what to do about their conditions. Right? Of COURSE they should, the Palestinians and the Israelis both, that's their own responsibility, not someone else's.

"They've shown a lot of maturity and restraint so far, but enough is enough."

What are you talking about, maturity? They're living in a shithole and getting bombed because they keep firing rockets at other people! Their strategy is to fire rockets from the middle of their cities and incite the Israelis to fire back and kill their people, then complain to the world how no one cares! Of course no one cares, they're idiots! No one cares if idiots who fire rockets at other people get killed! That's not mature, it's immature! Restraint? Their 6-month ceasefire with Israel ended Dec. 19th and they started firing rockets at Israel. That's not restraint, it's the opposite! You're a moron! "Enough is enough?" Apparently not, or they'd stop firing rockets at the Israelis! What are they going to do now....fire more rockets? That's not mature, it's not showing restraint, and it's not saying 'enough is enough.' Everything you say is wrong! Except your opinion, which is an opinion, and so isn't even wrong.

Almohad,

At the Annapolis accord, the starting basis for negotiation was to discuss an independant Palestinian state. That means Israel, by participating, has indicated that they would agree to that.

Only when Hamas will agree to the existance of the Jewish state of Israel can peace go anywhere.

"As far as I'm concerned they have an absolute right to fire as many Qassams as they can."

Then I guess as far as I'm concerned Israel has an absolute right to keep attacking Hamas until the attacks stop. Doesn't seem very productive to helping the plight of the Palestinians, does it?

The violence isn't about Israel occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. It's because some Palestinians, led by Hamas, will never accept a final peace agreement that lets Israel exist.

You're kidding, right? Israel has no intention of allowing a truly independent Palestinian state and they never have. Full stop, end of story. The Palestinians elected Hamas in what has been described as the most free elections ever held in the Arab world, and what is the response of the US and Israel? To declare that legitimate government a terrorist organization and openly, brazenly attack its infrastructure, taking out hospitals, schools, mosques, medical stores, power stations, and imposing a complete blockade on food and medical supplies getting in until UN workers on the scene warn of an impending humanitarian crisis.

Incidentally, blockading the necessaries of life is defined as an act of war by international convention, so the vaunted "truce" or "ceasefire" that existed between Israel and Hamas was really a situation where one side was allowed to starve the other into submission and the other side was expected to shut up and take it. And during that time most of the rocket-firing came in response to some Israeli incursion or attack.

"They're living in a shithole and getting bombed because they keep firing rockets at other people." What an astounding thing to say. Where do you get this garbage - from the IDF public relations office?

I doubt you seriously believe that there is some kind of symmetry or equality between the military might of nuclear-armed, US-supplied Israel and half-starved Hamas with its glorified fireworks, which by the way hadn't killed anyone in a year until the day Israel launched its latest round of atrocities (choosing to drop the first bombs at 11:30 am on a Saturday just as schoolchildren would be coming home). If it's still difficult for you, just do a simple body count.

Of course the ongoing violence is about the Israeli Occupation!!! That is, and always has been, absolutely the central issue. No one in their right mind expects the Palestinians to surrender their right to self-defence against Israeli attacks, while Israel continues the Occupation and accelerates the building of illegal settlements on Palestinian land. The Israeli politicians and military planners don't expect it. In fact they want to marginalize Hamas as much as possible, and any provocation that can induce Hamas to fire a few more rockets plays right into their hands. The last thing they want is a Hamas - or any Palestinian authority - that shows itself capable of observing ceasefires and truces and thereby becomes a more legitimate negotiating partner. So any time a ceasefire seems to be holding and going on for a longer and longer period of time, the less the Israelis like it.

C'mon guys - where are the accusations that I must be anti-Semitic? Isn't that the next step for you?