W3C - The New Navy

The new navy units will become part of Simcountry tomorrow Nov. 6 These new units bring a major change in the navy and how it functions.

The main changes

All current navies are dismantled and all weapons in these navies return to the country stock.
Navy fleets become Navy Bases, located close to your country.
There are now 3 types of navy units, details follow.
It is immediately possible to set up new navy units.

Three Types of Navy Units - more will be added.

The first release of the Navy Units will include 3 types of units.

The Aircraft carrier group

The unit includes 2 aircraft carriers, and a total of 250 navy fighters and 250 navy interceptors.

There are 30 additional ships, 12 defensive destroyers, 10 guided missile frigates and 8 missile cruisers. There are also 20 seals units. The group also includes 200 navy missile batteries and 200 navy anti missile batteries.

The aircraft carrier group can also be created at a smaller size, with numbers of weapons down to 50% of the maximal size.

The Helicopter carrier group

The unit includes 2 helicopter carriers with a total of 300 navy helicopters.

There are 37 additional ships, 15 defensive destroyers, 12 guided missile frigates and 10 missile cruisers. There are also 40 seals units. The group also includes 250 navy missile batteries and 250 navy anti missile batteries.

The helicopter carrier group can also be created at a smaller size, with numbers of weapons down to 50% of the maximal size.

Each group will include up to 40 supply ships. Smaller size units will need a smaller number of supply ships.

The Navy supply unit

The unit includes 20 defensive destroyers. The group also includes 600 navy missile batteries and 60 navy anti missile batteries.

The supply unit can also be created at a smaller size, with numbers of weapons down to 50% of the maximal size.

Depending on its mission, the supply unit will be extended with supply ships to carry the needed weapons, ammunition and supplies to the navy groups.

More types navy units will be added quite quickly. They will include navy groups without carriers and also navy groups with nuclear submarines.

Attack (non nuclear) submarines will be added to navy groups when they become available. This too will take place quite soon.

Setting Up New Navy Units

Immediately after the installation of the new navy units, it will become possible to set up such units, using the weapons and ammunition that were used in the current navies that will not exist anymore.

The missing components are:

* Supply ships that can currently be purchased on the market. (we will add some supply ships to the markets in the initial days after the introduction).

* Navy defense Interceptors which are new to the game and are available with the new units. These interceptors are only needed if you build an aircraft carrier group. we expect production to start fairly quickly and we will add some navy interceptors into the markets in the initial period after the introduction of the new navy units.

Navy Weapons

Navy weapons have wider capacities than most similar, land based weapons. Navy fighters, navy interceptors are more effective and all the navy vessels are now more robust and forceful than before. As a result, smaller number of weapons are needed in the navy and navy units are an effective addition to the army units in Simcountry.

The production numbers per navy weapons producing corporation are now a bit higher and the base price of the weapons is reduced.

Cruise missiles

Cruise missiles, both land based and sea based types, are no longer effective against navy carriers. Instead, cruise missiles will become effective, starting with the next update, against space centers, nuclear defense batteries and some nuclear weapon installations.

Both types of cruise missiles can now be produced and traded on all the worlds.

very nice update!

just need more info on the increased capacities of navy fighters/interc , judging by "robust and forceful" i assume they are harder to kill and hit harder than before?

Aww, no attack subs yet? Oh well, at least with this update, we can use our navy in better ways. Who know, maybe we will have some sweet naval battles.

Though quick question: Will c3s also have navy bases that we'll have to attack?

when will be able to airlift multiple units?

+1 TheWhy

lol, +999999 TheWhy

This update will spice this up, that means i can have as many aircraft carriers as the US or the world

One question GM, will you be able to upgrade the groups like the rest of the land units/air wings/etc.?

What is the rationale for not being able to sell my last aircraft carrier in a particular Country, particularly with the new Navy. I had to buy the darn thing. I ought to be able to sell it.

Mute beat me too it, just came to the forum to say the same thing. Yes, not being able to sell your last aircraft carrier makes no sense anymore.

mute you shouldnt throw around words like rationale here it causes people abit of discomfort just be a little more considerate please

Andy
I just tested the navies and we seem to have a slight problem.

I used 250 planes/8 cruise/12 guided
The problem here is that when i attack the defenses inters wings respond to the fighters and if there's not any air then helis wings kick in to clear the ships.
This means in order to even use the navy in full you HAVE to clear ALL enemy air force units and that is MASSIVE because the firepower the navy provides isn't anywhere near that.
Not to mention by the time the enemy air force is cleared a person would have no need for a navy because a ground option would be open.

Real world Naval units are air superiority fighters first, some example are... The Harrier, Hornet, Lighting all are navy planes that can perform ground attacks but are mainly produced on being air superiority fighters.

I'm not saying that a SINGLE navy fleet should be able to take out all the defenses of a nation. But i should be able to station a 4-5 fleets off a nations coast(in c3 warring) and be able to clear out the enemy defenses. Or at the very least clear enemy air units.

Something the GM could do.(just a suggestion)

Since planes are stronger then helis.
Increase heli's attack power to that of navy planes and decrease navy planes to that of helis. Just flipping their stats, this would make plane weaker vs ground, and giving the edge to helis. This would allow the GM to increase fighter strength vs air units without them becoming an overpowered weapon.
On the same token the GM could allow more of all ships in a helicopter fleets(maybe on 10-20 more in total 5 destroyers, 6 cruise, 9 guided) giving it an edge for killing ground units.
On the flip side decrease the ships in Aircraft fleet and add Navy anti air, make them just a bit stronger then land base not by much so that 250 batteries are being completely overwhelmed, But it would give them an edge just enough to clear air units.
Or something else the GM could do, is allow us to send more aircraft carriers with a fleet. This would give us the chance to add more planes to the fleet but the max could still be set at 250 per attack.
Being able to send more ships with more planes would be HUGE as i would be able to have more planes in the fleet to fight with but if there's still the 250 plane per attack limit in place someone cant completely overpower the defenses. This could work with both planes and naval anti air. Each carrier could bring 125 planes/ batteries into combat. If someone choose to send (Lets make the max number 5 carriers per fleet) 5 carriers that would mean they could send 625 planes and batteries per fleet. This would allow them to have enough weapons to be able to combat the enemy forces but not make them crazy powerful. Not to mention when a fleet is destroyed it loses all its weapons/ammo. This would mean well possibly very helpful in C3 warring, it wouldn't be a good idea in PvP because of the massive loss of assets should the enemy sink the fleet

i like all supers suggestions subtle realistic ways to increase the strength of navies and make them more applicable... he also brought up some questions about how exactly navy interceptors interact with the rest of the war game... do navies cover eachother? how many units can respond at once? do they participate in fed air d?

Nothing I have seen tells me there is something wrong with navies thus far. Post some logs and we will talk.

"This means in order to even use the navy in full you HAVE to clear ALL enemy air force units"

duh

"But i should be able to station a 4-5 fleets off a nations coast(in c3 warring) and be able to clear out the enemy defenses."

The example you showed in chat was war level 7 where your forces were quality 300. This is less than the air defense wings you faced. 5 fleets have 1250 aircraft. These should clear 3380 interceptors a war level 7 country has at higher quality? How about no...

Aries

I'm not debating this with you, i'm just point out the info

With land or air you can clear one or the other and move on fighting that way the rest of the war, Navies need both cleared to be effective in battle.
Also after a resent attack my forces where 250Q vs 350Q, all i've is this lower Q unit ATM, ill have to get higher Q to do a larger test. Point was in that EVENT i lost 160 planes in the attack, the navy can only have 250 planes in TOTAL meaning that 1 attack cuts your forces in half. Meaning that even at matching Q lets pretend you only lost half your units. 80 of 250 Planes is HUGE. The next attack will be no where near as effective. Giving your navy a what "MAYBE" 4 attack lifespan. In 2attacks half your planes are gone and im dout you did 2wings of interecptor kills. Lets not forget that as you lose forces your not completely destroying the wings either. Lets pretend that those 4 attacks destroy the units though

5 fleets times 4 attacks = 20 wings (we are basing this on the TOTALLY OPTIMISTIC SIDE)

In war level 7 there's 26 inter wing @ 350Q.

So by that math you would need 7fleets making the fleets that the game asks = 37K officers/ 93K soldiers. That same manpower, and cost i would have 10 air units of 400planes.

It would be less man power, less in costs, and do MUCH more damage. 4000 fighters vs 1250 navy planes? Just throwing the planes at the wings alone would still do a MASSIVE amount of damage compared to what the navies could inflict.

Until people can do more tests the only stuff we know to be 100% true is that...

Only naval offensive anti air weapon is planes.
A fleet can only have 250. Not to mention i can only have 250 helis. (which do less damage then planes, meaning that the helis are infact weaker).
The only way to use naval ship power is to clear heli, and to use it air support you need all the air units.
Navy planes cost more then normal planes and almost double that of interceptors.

The added global range is plus but that's not really anything helpful when you cant do any kind of real damage.

Ill upgrade my forces and see what kind of future tests i can do but if you lose 1 plane per inter you take. That's going to be rough.
You going to see 2 battles per fleet and the costs will be 2 times that of the defense and 2 times the loss to man power

i think both of you guys have good points navies shouldnt be mega weapons like they used to but as it is now i dont see any point for having a navy...pretty useless id rather just stick with land based air units and wait a day to move them rather then have a wimpy air unit that gets moved in a month.... by the time fighting actually starts both parties should have their forces in place due to the time given so the navy is pretty pointless in Pvp atleast and as super has shown useless even against c3s

Thank you, Thewhy

I agree that navies shouldn't be MEGA WEAPONS. In PvP it would be STUPID to be able to take a nation with only navies. Back in the day they would have 400 planes per attack and additional 11000 on standby.
It was for the better part STUPID!!!

But now with the limited arms its hard. Navies require an extensive amount of manpower, units, and cost. And for the little firepower they offer its not worth it.

like i said before the Range is great but if its a onetime deal, why bother? And when i can have more units and a larger diversity of units for the same price and manpower. Whats the point?

Andy

I would like to ask, you say that cruise missiles will be able to take out space centers. What happens to the contents of space centers since they now will become military targets. If a space center is destroyed, what happens to the contents of the space center. Will they be lost or will they be added back into the nation?

We will use this thread to further clarify navy issues.
there are several questions here and we will look into the details.

You should be able to sell your carriers.
We are looking into it.
More later.

Attack submarines will be added soon.
The update was large enough to keep other items from being introduced at the same time.

Navy units, like all other units, can be upgraded

After doing some testing i have complied a list of pros/cons for navies.

A unit of 250 planes or helis / 20 cruise and guided, is enough to destroy almost the entire garrison in war level 7. But the losses even when inters are down around 20-30 losses per attack. After 1 attack you lose more and more planes meaning the overall fighting power is decreased. In each attack the total amount of planes lost was close to 30% on average(around 100 planes give or take). After the first attack the garrisons where not seeing the entire garrison destroyed.

Helis are considerably weaker then navy fighter planes about 30-50% in some areas.

If you use the cruise or guided ships the damage inflicted is EXTREMELY low.

The Democratic Union of Mona alva (the attacked country) reports:
The country lost 4 missile interceptor batteries, 2 defensive missile batteries, 2 armored vehicles, 5 artillery and 1 tank.
The country used 204 missile interceptors in the defense.
16 soldiers were killed and 42 were wounded.
The defence was assisted by the Garrison TG3185.

Because the limited number of ships it would take several dozens attacks to clear out a garrison. My numbers show that 1 attack of 300Q ammo costs 9B on base price ammo costs.
This means for navy to be useful both the inters and heli's MUST be cleared otherwise the navy will inflict very low damage or suffer high losses.

Because the planes suffer such large losses the amount of population killed because of the attacks is MUCH higher then normal.
Navy fighter planes use 6 more officers and 24 more soldiers per plane(A single plane uses 20 officers /78 soldiers)

I attacked a target forcing the inter wing to respond. In the event of a matching Quality a unit would lose 100 navy fighter planes per attack but clear out the enemy inter wing(based you attacked with 250 planes at first). The numbers below of an attack with the losses of 111 Navy fighter planes
"868 soldiers were killed and 2824 were wounded."

Stealth bomber seem to target navy's but that doesn't seem to be a problem if the player has additional interceptors up. The Navy inters seems to provide a good amount of defense against air units. (further testing needed on a conventional scale)

Overall navy's have the potential to do well and assist well. But in almost all tests each attack reduced there numbers by almost 30% in a single attack, after that the second attack saw 50% or more(also didnt clear the entire wing). The damage done without the navy FULL force was EXTREMELY limited, The manpower losses are almost DOUBLE then land based weapons, The costs are almost double, but they do have a much faster mobile advantage and there weapons seem to have a slightly larger range

On a grade system
Added defence = A+
(the addition of interceptors was amazing, they did very well protecting the fleet and are VERY impressive. The first few times you see them preform you are extremely happy with the results)
Range of units = A+
(they seem to have a very desent range when firing from the fleet plus the mobile range of the fleet is a plus.)
Manpower requirements = C
( I can understand more troops for navies but having almost double the troops per plane and double losses is hard to swallow, not to mention ships need a lot of people for the little firepower they provide)
Offensive Abilities = D
( I cant fail them becuase they did prove to have good firepower when fighting garrisons but thats only garrison, in all other areas it was very much a failure)

I cant grade them past this as some navy units are missing and we wait the rest of the naval update

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and info Super and thanks for taking the time to write this report for us. I really appreciate it. It seems very few vets nowadays are willing to help and you're certainly on top of this list.

No problem.

I'll do more test and post results, this is all i got off hand. I tried as best i could to test all the factors i knew of and i tried to be neutral in the grading. I based it on what i saw happen rather then personal opinion.

There was a lot of REALLY good updates with the navies that where not there and will indeed better them in the future, as i spend more time testing them i will post results and more info as it comes to light, Though if you have something you'd like me to test please let me know, id love to be able to see how effective they are as a whole.

I saw a navy once. It was on TV and was an old movie but I think I got the gist of it. So, I will give some grades.

Defense: A+

The armor was thick. Planes were flying around all over the place and, when they would crash into the ship, they wouldn't even sink! That was awesome, right?

Range: A

The ships were all over the place. They had to stay in the water though, so I had to deduct the "+".

Manpower: A

There were a bunch of guys. On the deck, flying planes, and everything but they were cool. Told neat stories and had tattoos so that was pretty cool. right?

Offensive Abilities: A+

Big guns, missiles, and planes zipping through the air! Explosions! Bang Bang Bang! What else could you want?


In conclusion, hey Super, could we see some of these logs that back up your assertions on navy please? Let us know the quality level of your stuff and the war level of the C3 too. thanks!

Aries

I don't appreciate being attacked in the forum's and in chat for something YOU don't agree with, How many people in SC openly share there ideas/info as i do, if you don't like what I've provided TEST it yourself.

Also i said above in my post what Q my units was, my war level and i even provided a battle report and kill rates from an attack.

As i said i will run more tests and provide what i can, You are acting like a child. You like to pride yourself up but as your post above proves you are nothing of the sort. Rather then flame warring provide your own logs, Then if you want to compare numbers ill be happy to do so.

But for those of us that want to exchange the info we have leave us be. I don't bash you at every comment you make, so if you don't like it don't say anything at all

hmm from supers report and tests it seems investing in the navy is still not worthy enough, especially that weapon type and number in a fleet is heavily limited

Aries, I shall give you the gist of naval technology, since I myself served in the US NAVY

Defense- B+
A warships is weakest at its deck. That is where the armor is at its thinnest. so when a plane rams it at the deck, it is greatly wounded. More so if it hits the magazine store.

Range- B
A naval fleet can only go so far by itself. Like with any land formation, it needs supplies to go further. No supplies, no movement.

Manpower- A-
The only warship with a very large crew is an aircraft carrier, and that is roughly 5,000 men, women, and officers. Other than that, you're lucky to be on a ship with more than 300 on board.

Offensive Abilities- A-
Despite what you saw on TV, a navy can only do so much. The reason why I gave it an A- is because before it can hit something it needs to find it.

Now, on a side note: when are the subs gonna come out? I've got some plans for them, especially if they are given their own unit to be in.