This is why I'm so proud of the world we live in (Fearless Blue)

I'm sorry Parsifal, I know that's weak. I just don't have very many specific details about America's bankruptcy in 1929.

thought you might have been referring to a European country. yes, 1929 was a disaster, but i would't say the country was forclosed on, even though the devastation was terrible. i watched the John Perkins piece (very interesting as conspiracy theories go) and his conclusions are plausable and based on possible truths. no doubt the US has been in the middle of coups, bribes, etc. over the years. my issue with him is that he doesn't really give solutions other than "getting involved" to turn it around. nor does he talk about what would be the unintended consequencies of turning the whole thing upside down. i live in Houston and i know that if for some reason all the international oil and construction companies were thrown out of third world countries, Houston would be a ghost town over night. i think we have to lay some of the blame at the feet of corrupt politician in third world countries that line their own pockets with swag at the expense of their countrymen. and when they've been successful in throwing us out, within a couple of years they invite us back, cuz they can't handle it themselves.
to me, the biggest challenge for the US in the future is China. they're gobbling up natural resources right and left and will dominate world markets in ten or fifteen years. and do you think they're going to worry about the poor peasants in Ghana, etc.? hardly.
i think the answer to the third world lies in education. that's what made the US a super power. we educated the masses and we see the same thing happening in India and China. that's the only way you can build a stable economy and gov't. and if the US doesn't come up with a solution to our high drop out rate and incarceration prison rate, we end up being third world ourselves.
but i have hope. the genius of our system is that we have been innovative to change and we can solve these tough problems. our system of checks and balances is a system that embraces a tension of ideas. it is for us together, to rationally address these questions and bring about positive change.

What good does educating the masses do?
Also educate them in what?
The more you know the more you expect.
In India, up until 5 years ago the masses didn't have TV and life went on. Now the masses have TV, they can see what they hav'nt got. Now life stands still.


Let alone the environmental impact of people wanting more.

As for your high drop out rate and incarceration prison rate you should blame that on the people who control what on your TV, in your music, scenario's in a Video Game and anything else that influences kids in a bad way.

Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this

Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

Here in this hopeless f**king hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any f**king time. Any f**king day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona bay.

Fret for your figure and
Fret for your latte and
Fret for your hairpiece and
Fret for your lawsuit and
Fret for your prozac and
Fret for your pilot and
Fret for your contract and
Fret for your car.

It's a
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

Here in this hopeless f**king hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any f**king time. Any f**king day.
Learn to swim, I'll see you down in Arizona bay.

Some say a comet will fall from the sky.
Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
Followed by faultlines that cannot sit still.
Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshits.

Some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will cuz
I sure could use a vacation from this

Silly shit, stupid shit...

One great big festering neon distraction,
I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.

Learn to swim.

Mom's gonna fix it all soon.
Mom's comin' round to put it back the way it ought to be.

Learn to swim.

F**k L Ron Hubbard and
F**k all his clones.
F**k all those gun-toting
Hip gangster wannabes.

Learn to swim.

F**k retro anything.
F**k your tattoos.
F**k all you junkies and
F**k your short memory.

Learn to swim.

F**k smiley glad-hands
With hidden agendas.
F**k these dysfunctional,
Insecure actresses.

Learn to swim.

Cuz I'm praying for rain
And I'm praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way.
I wanna watch it all go down.
Mom please flush it all away.
I wanna watch it go right in and down.
I wanna watch it go right in.
Watch you flush it all away.

Time to bring it down again.
Don't just call me pessimist.
Try and read between the lines.

I can't imagine why you wouldn't
Welcome any change, my friend.

I wanna see it all come down.
suck it down.
flush it down.

@nix-- no doubt that media, etc. impacts our values. the dominant culture in US says that what's important is status and stuff. ask the typical middle class US and for that matter the underclass, what the biggest stressor they have in their lives. the lack of time will be up near the top. why, because we are looking for happiness in all the wrong places and we run so fast that our shadow can't keep up with us. we hide in our addictions and our "have to have's". spirituality, in whatever form is of little value to many because we're obsessed with filling our time with things that in the greater sceme of things aren't important.
i don't think there's anything inherently wrong with wanting more. it's about what we want. and if it's "stuff" and addictions and they don't work we often turn inward in depression, anger, or take a nihilistic view of the world. and there's good reason for this. who are we, only one person? the problems seem overwhelming and we feel helpless to change things. our tendency is to want to nuke the world and start over again. but at our core, we know that's not the answer.
as to education. it's proven that education is the one factor that will get people out of poverty. not just affluence, but to give persons the ability to see beyond themselves, to get jobs, build homes, businesses and a sound economy and government. without education, we just screw ourselves deeper into the mire of isolation and poverty and disease. education gives one the opportunity to be at the decision makers table. whether it's in our local political process, teaching others, in industry, religion, or every other venue of change and decision making. no one will listen to you if you can't articulate the problem and offer alternative solutions to issues. and while i'm at it, there's a difference between problems and issues. i do community organizing and i've learned that a problems is multifacited and doesn't have one answer. an "issue" is a small part of the larger problem and has a winnable well defined solution that people can get behind. it may be as simple as getting a stop sign put up in your neighborhood or as complex as passing a bond issue for better schools. there are answers, if you don't opt out. and after all, what are we here for?

@MP very powerful poetry. water can cleanse. do you believe in the cleansing water?

I wish I could take credit for it.

However. I just posted some song lyrics that I found relevant to the discussion.

The artist who wrote these songs must believe, on some level, that water cleanses. It is reoccurring throughout his body of work.

However. If you are talking about baptism...

On a spiritual level, I believe he is angry at, or feels abandoned by God.

Can anyone guess the artist or genre?

Aenema by Tool. Metal.



Hugs and respect

Jo

Nice Jo.

You a fan? or Iain?

Ooops ...

Let's just say I have an eclectic taste (and instant access to wiki)

Hugs and respect

Jo

@MP-- i agree that he's angry. but sometimes in our anger we reach out to things that don't seem congruent. you're probably right about him. i'm too old to know about him. but i'm always looking for the possibility of new beginnings. water, whether baptism or some other form of cleansing can be seen as a way of washing away the past and even our childish beliefs in "the gimme god" and embrace something more lasting and transcendent. that requires that we allow ourselves to sink into the murky waters of unknowing.

@Jo you are such a fox. i never know when you're going to turn up. Hugs and respect to you too.

/me hugs Parsifal

@ MoP ... I'd quote some Floyd, but it isn't the same without the music, so it will have to be Leonard Cohen ...

"First we take Manhatten ... then we take Berlin"

Hugs and respect

Jo

@MoP--well i listened/watched Aenema. yes, he's pissed. but sometimes even in nihilism there's a thread of hope and a look towards re-creation. the creature seems to be trying to come to final creation and the water possibly acts as a medium for making the creature evolve. but there's something missing and we wonder if there was more time to evolve, whether it would turn into a fully evolved human. but the evolution is stopped when the bald man takes the canister and throws it against the wall and the creation dies. lots of interesting questions. who's the bald man? is the evolving creation, his baby? why did he throw the cannister against the wall? is he angry with his own imperfect creation? what do you think? i know, i think too much, but it's an interesting piece/production.

<!-Quote-!>Quote:

i watched the John Perkins piece (very interesting as conspiracy theories go)<!-/Quote-!>

What theory? It was his job. I pretty much think that it isn't theoretical.

I guess if I told you about my job we could call it a conspiracy theory too. Are we going to disbelieve Perkins because we didn't actually work next to him?

<!-Quote-!>Quote:

i live in Houston and i know that if for some reason all the international oil and construction companies were thrown out of third world countries, Houston would be a ghost town over night.<!-/Quote-!>

If our economy is built on the backs of foreign slaves maybe we should go with the ghost town. Either that or we turn our OWN LABORS into a great nation.

<!-Quote-!>Quote:

i think the answer to the third world lies in education.<!-/Quote-!>

Hard fact: Venezuela didn't have schools because of being raped economically by foreign corporations. Same thing with the hospitals.(according to Chavez) How are they to get education then? A strong leader comes along (Hugo) kicks Exxon Mobile out and stops the exploitation of his people and natural resources. This is the first step to even affording schools for an educated population.

I find it troubling that we will default to 'conspiracy theory' when we are tipped off to evils done by our own country. There is no reason for a defense mechanism and with it there is no repair of the situation.

@SG no doubt US business interests and military interests have often gone hand in hand and have dealt immorally. but it takes two or more sides to form a conspiracy and to be complicite in an act. no doubt US interests have maintained puppets in many countries over the years. and they've taken them out by force. but often US aid to underdeveloped countries is diverted by corrupt officials within the country with money from natural resources funneled off to a small elite group. and yes, they may be in bed with the US corp/military/cia but they still have a choice as to how they will treat their countrymen. let's see what Chavez does with the money that's taken in now that they have more control. it may be a model for other countries. but the history of third world countries didn't just start with US intervention in the last 50 years. it goes back hundreds of years and has it roots in european colonialism.
there is an international law that prohibits multi-national companies from bribing country officials. the reason for this is that in the past that was the way business was done. the penalties are quite steep. a local ceo of a large oil company was sent to prison a few years ago for his role in bribing Saddam when sanctions were in place. even though he was in his 80/s and ill he went to prison. but does bribery go on elsewhere. i'm sure it does. and not every country adhere to these laws? i doubt that China does.
when companies want to do business in a country and they go make a deal with the government, should they put stipulations on how the money will be used and what sanctions should they put on the use of the money if its not used in the way designated by the agreement.
some points to consider for our discussion:
1. there have been immoral acts commited by both multi-nationals, their countries and the officials of those countries.
2. laws are in place setting penalties for bribes and other illegal acts. multi-nationals should be held to these standards
3. no such laws exist in most third world nations
4. in negotiations w/ countries over use of nat res etc. what should be the criteria for such uses? should sanctions be placed on leaders in those countries that do not adhere to these agreements? and who should enforce those sanctions? world court, cia, mob, military?
5. in negotiating contracts with a country, who should the mult-national negotiate? who has the power to make the deal and enforce the deal?

Perkins makes a compelling argument and i'm sure much of it is true. but it's only one side of the story (an important part). but it wraps up the issue in a neat package that cannot bring into focus all the facets of the issue.

thanks to you for your insight.

Meanwhile hundreds of millions are still impoverish deliberately.

Lets see where Hugo is spending the money:

Venezuela paid, in the last eight months, 60 percent of its debt with the International Monetary Fund (IMF), said a report of the Central Bank of Venezuela (CBV) released Tuesday by the local press.

By Guillermo Parra-Bernal

April 14 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuela said it paid off $3 billion in loans owed to the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank this week, ending ties to two multilateral lenders it says curtailed its "economic sovereignty" for decades.

One more...

15 April 2007 | 00:27 | FOCUS News Agency

CARACAS. Venezuela has paid off all its debts to the International Monetary Fund and World Bank and told them goodbye after fiercely criticizing the institutions for policies it claims have perpetuated poverty. "My dear Sirs at the World Bank, Sirs at the International Monetary Fund goodbye to you. Venezuela is free ... and sovereign" Finance Minister Rodrigo Cabezas told the state TV broadcaster Saturday "We are closing a historic cycle of indebtedness" Cabezas said, adding that Venezuela "does not have any debts with the institutions.

By your statements you would think that I, or Perkins, was the only one saying this stuff.

Oh, and WHAT law? If there even is one it's obviously not working! lol

You know what though? I'm okay with what ever positions Americans take, the system of oppression is not sustainable.

And colonialism...

What's the big difference here? The British sucking the Spanish dry? What exactly has changed?

The conflict that ended in 1604 between the England and Spain, that had begun in 1585 was a Spanish defeat. Remember the whole sinking of the armada thing?

See? you learn something new everyday... at least I do for example did you know...? I didn't.

the name of the act is the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.

i will be signing off for a few days, but i'd like to continue the dialogue.

well, i'm back. while i was out of town, i did some research on Venezuela and Perkins. let me prefice by saying i see both sides of these issues and know that most parties (corps, US and country officials) can't claim clean hands. ex. there is no universal acceptance of Perkins espec. by the NSA who catagorically deny his involvement in black hat ops. thus, with that kind of disagreement, it would indicate that we must consider Perkins ideas, a conspiracy theory.

here's an interesting article on ven education reform. it'll be interesting to see if it works.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/4734

this one is about Venzuela making deals w/ Russia and China. also, other countries seem ready to belly up and make deals giving Ven 50-85% of revenue or is that profit? hum.. China and Russia are planning on investing up to 36bill in the projects. that will be interesting. wonder what will happen if he tries to take over their operations.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aPmr3eR8stD4

it's my understanding that EX and CONPHIL are going to abandon arbitration. what good is arbitration if Chavez says screw you to the arbitrator. i'm going to check with my Houston contacts about what the provisions of the contract were. i'm sure i won't get all the details, but it might be interesting to get another view.

the next few years will be very interesting.

There is no universal acceptance of the Mafia espec. by the Gambino family who catagorically deny their involvement in organized crime. thus, with that kind of disagreement, it would indicate that we must consider the prosecuting attorney's ideas, a conspiracy theory.

and there were/are some who would say that the Gambino family has done some good (not me) but that doesn't legitimize the evil they've done. the same would go for the NSA, the World Bank, the CIA, the US military, etc. there are many, maybe most who would say that these entities are what have worked in the interest of US citizens and the betterment of all humankind. one of the world bank's stated goals is to help underdeveloped countries build infrastucture, etc. to bring persons out of poverty and to help all humankind. there is much truth in this, but as humans, we have a dark side. transparency and accountability are things we need but tend to avoid. there are also levels of legitimacy with institutions. we tend to love to embrace conspiracy theories; whether it's the CIA, the Catholic church, Free Masonry, Socialism, etc. conspiracy therories make it easier for us to explain very complex issues and to spin subjective events/facts/experiences. in our desire to find meanings and factual understandings we blur the nuance and take hardened positions that cannot look at other possibilities. CT's can help with that by shedding new light but can also blind us to alternative explanations. CT's tend not to embrace dichotomies.

thanks for your goading insight. lol. your turn SG

<!-Quote-!>Quote:

one of the world bank's stated goals is to help underdeveloped countries build infrastucture, etc. to bring persons out of poverty and to help all humankind. there is much truth in this<!-/Quote-!>

Sorry... I had to stop there...

um... what do we chalk that up to? Being naive? Willful denial?


Like what they say is what they do. This reminds me of Galaxy Quest where the aliens have no concept of lying.

We obviously live in different worlds. In my world I can only find examples of the world bank CAUSING poverty.

Yeah, I stopped reading there and I'm not going to continue. (no offense, but you ate the blue pill.)