Simcountry
Forum General Debate Topic: Environmentalism (Little Upsilon)

Debate Topic: Environmentalism (Little Upsilon)

J
Jo Jo Hun (Fearless Blue)
11 Jan 2009 07:33 Link
AP, the Wikipedia article lists organizations that support a relatively mild statement about global warming. Many people who could easily be called "skeptics" would agree with that statement, and yet still be skeptical about some or much of what is generally assumed to be conventional wisdom about global warming.
T
The Grand Poobah (Golden Rainbow)
11 Jan 2009 07:34 Link
Depends what your faith is, Angus. That's the amazing thing about spoken language, one word can have various meanings. I was refering to faith in "Spirituality". The belief in a higher power and in one's own spirit.

Did random elements bond just perfectly to form a living cell through random chemicle reactions? Lets go back further.
What created the first Element? Nothing exists forever. At one point there was nothing, now there is something.

Science helps us find answers, faith guides us.
Understand my abstract concepts now?
A
Angus88 (Little Upsilon)
11 Jan 2009 07:51 Link
Well yeah there are scams from green guilt. But I think think life adds stability to the planet, although one species won't do anything, whats stopping you from making that rationale again and again until it actually has an effect, also life on top of the food chain are less important then life on the bottom (if you want to actually prioritize importance of life, guess I can't talk I eat meat). My view for protecting life is for preserving knowledge, life is a library which we have only begun to read, we wouldn't destroy books just because there is so many others (stupid metaphor I know).
J
Jo Jo Hun (Fearless Blue)
11 Jan 2009 08:08 Link
"Life is a library which we have only begun to read"--Angus, did you make that up? It's good.
A
Angus88 (Little Upsilon)
11 Jan 2009 08:17 Link
"What created the first Element?"

Well first you assume that it must have been created, but that assumption shoots itself in the foot because what created it also needs a creator by that reasoning the process of creation continues indefinitely with no conclusion to be reached.

Then you implement anything abstract as a way of somehow explaining a non explanation? Sure nothing wrong with abstract concepts. I enjoy music, stories, philosophy. There is a serious problem when it is treated on the same grounds as the objective, or has any effect on the objective then there is a problem. Especially so when many people are not given the choice to follow the abstract, organizations of the abstract demand special privileges simply because their abstract concept is special.
A
Angus88 (Little Upsilon)
11 Jan 2009 08:18 Link
Yeah I made it up Jo Jo.
T
The Grand Poobah
11 Jan 2009 08:58 Link
I never said that nothing created the creator of the first element. I said "What created the first Element?"
A
Angus88 (Little Upsilon)
12 Jan 2009 06:04 Link
And again you make the assumption that it must have been created.
T
The Grand Poobah (Golden Rainbow)
12 Jan 2009 06:42 Link
no angus. I'm saying that things have always existed. With no beginning. it's just here. Always has been. Never been created.

(see sarcasm)
T
The Grand Poobah (Golden Rainbow)
13 Jan 2009 13:37 Link
What I'm trying to say is- Nothing comes from nothing. Everything comes from something. Something must lead to the creation of something else if something is to exist.

A + B = C

You assume that I was implying "Higher Power" or "Big Bang".

I will smartly reply with "What lead to the creation that higher Power?"

Or

"What created that little ball of matter that blew up and created the universe?"

and

"What created the thing that created that little ball of matter that blew up and created the universe?"

You understand what I'm getting at.
Untill science can answer that (Which it can't) belief in higher power, can and will never be discredited.

I am not saying "I believe in God. Suck my Toes"

I am not saying "The universe just exists and your a dumb bible thumper"

I AM saying "we don't know what's really going on.
In the eyes of the cosmos, we are all insugnificant, so Lets Strip naked, get drunk and then see what happens. Who's down?"
N
nix001
13 Jan 2009 17:54 Link
I get into fights when I'm drunk. :( so I'll leave you lot to it.

I think nothing is the other half of something and only occures when a atom loses, through degradation, either its postive(+)energy or it's negative(-)energy and has'nt yet come across any more opposite energy to make it something again.

I also think that the Big Bang happens time and time again because :) over time, one type of energy, either positive or negative, gets broken down to the point where there is not enough of that energy to stabalize anymore atoms that lose that side of their energy, creating lots of fast moving unstable atoms.

Lets say our atom has lost it's negative(-) energy, so it's pure positive(+). It will be attracted to the nearest (-) energy and like magnets will travel to that source.
At the same time weaker pure atoms of (-) energy will be attracted to our pure (+)atom.
In todays life pure atom reactions occur every milli second of the day, but as there are plenty of opposite atoms everywhere, our pure atom wouldn't have to be un-stable for long or travel far before it would find or be found by it's opposite energy, meaning there are no noticable reactions.

But if our pure atom had to travel a long way(due to the shortage of negative energy near by) to reach what it's attracted to, by the time it gets there, it would have built up that much speed that it would slam into it's opposite creating the Big Bang.
N
nix001
13 Jan 2009 18:59 Link
I guess life is a balance and alot of the time the best place to be would be on the fence. But to me, there is no other side of the fence, let alone a fence when it comes to the Environment. For the simple reason that I will not even take the risk with something so precious.
People spend so much time looking after and protecting what they own. Cleaning and polishing things because they wont even risk the on set of rust. Covering and protecting things so as not to risk them getting damaged. Yet when it comes to risking damage to the future generations natural environment there is'nt the same concern. Why is that?
T
The Grand Poobah (Golden Rainbow)
13 Jan 2009 23:06 Link
native american tribes believe Earth is Sick (see medicine wheel). This because the Yellowstone Caldera is showing scary signs of activity.
A
Angus88 (Little Upsilon)
14 Jan 2009 03:44 Link
Heh use the agnostic argument, thats come a long way from we must merge faith and science. Yeah no one really knows, but some have a better idea then others. Spirituality is a cultural phenomena, it proves things the same way music proves things. The problem is when people claim that it until some proof to the contrary comes along, their idea is true.

It comes down to the thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters, any made up story based on nothing might be true, its it is almost infinitely likely that it isn't true. Treat is like fiction.

There's no real problem with spiritualistic heritage (unless you have dogmatic ideas connected with it) until facts are presented to the contrary, then their are two reactions, acknowledge it and understand your spiritual heritage is a cultural affair only (many pagans have this attitude), or ignore it and get defensive (totalitarian based religions usually have this kind of dilemma). I'm indifferent to non-totalitarian/brainwashing based cults.
T
The Grand Poobah (Golden Rainbow)
15 Jan 2009 00:05 Link
Actually, I don't ignore info. No matter how "out there" it may be. My point is merely- We don't have a clue of what's going on.

"t comes down to the thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters, any made up story based on nothing might be true, its it is almost infinitely likely that it isn't true. Treat is like fiction. "

If we were to utilize the most powerful force on Earth- The human brain, we could actually get somewhere. 6 billion brains taking shots into the dark, someone's bound to hit something.
Is it so hard to believe that there is a higher power? (not necessarilly a "God")

I don't claim to KNOW. I use such words as MAYBE and POSSIBLY. To say that there is NO higher powers is just as ignorant as saying that YOUR God is the almighty, omnipotent creator of all.
If we don't know, we don't know.

"But why do you talk about so many religious beliefs and writtings?" You may ask.

I'm a student of Global history. If you haven't noticed already, history and religion stroll hand in hand and have done so for thousands and thousands of years. I am well educated in the field which leads to a better understanding.
Once again. Not saying it IS going to happen. I'm saying I UNDERSTAND why they say it's going to happen.
N
nix001
18 Jan 2009 19:54 Link
Helloa FarmerBob. Hope all is well, long time no see?

Just a quick question. In England, the government has given the green light to a third runway to be built a Heathrow Airport, London. Now, this is against all government ministers Environmental concerns, but PM says that if we can't compete we will fade away.
Which means everyother airport that wants to compete will also build another run way, making the price to travel by air cheaper, meaning more flights , meaning more polution.

My guestion is:
In your eye's would there be any reason to become an Environmental Warrior? Fighting the forces of consumption, who fight in the name of material wealth, face to face? :)

Or do you think that regardless of what we see around us, we should just sit back and hope Mother Nature, from her fenced off areas, can keep the balance of life alive?
D
Daconia
20 Jan 2009 08:34 Link
I haven't posted on this thread in a while...so I figured I would throw my $.17 in. (Inflation you know)
I'm a GREAT believer in economics and technology. To answer the airport question...let them build it..when air pollution from planes because an
ECONOMIC hardship..the technology will be created to fix it and someone will profit from it. Yes there will be suffering of the individual and local environments until there is sufficient profit motive to fix the problem...but it will never reach a level to threaten MANKIND, because that would not be profitable.
Same is true for deforestation and pollution in general.
A great example of this is the "ozone hole" theoretically caused by freon and other chlorofluorocarbons. Alternatives to these have existed for a long time but were not as economically viable. When the cry got loud enough and governments put enough pressure on manufacturers, the viability of these alternatives was profitable. In this case legislation and international treaties sped the change....but profit was still the motive for change.
No one discusses the ozone issue anymore.

Anyhow...thats my thoughts on it...and why I don't get too excited when some new "trendy" problem comes to light.
T
The Grand Poobah (Golden Rainbow)
20 Jan 2009 10:18 Link
Sumone going to become a corporate lawer wouldn't, would they? ;-)

"theoretically caused by freon and other chlorofluorocarbons"

Now...theoretical...yes...

"alternatives to these have existed for a long time but were not as economically viable. When the cry got loud enough and governments put enough pressure on manufacturers, the viability of these alternatives was profitable."

So, we stopped using them in the U.S. and developed countries and sold them to developing nations. It's called having your cake and eating it to.
Come on, what else would they do with their stockpiles of freon and other chlorofluorocarbons.
A common corporate world tactic of product disposal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg-52mHIjhs

Your right about the Profit issue though.
F
FarmerBob
20 Jan 2009 13:46 Link
LOL. Molecular weight of air: 29 Average Molecular weight of a typical CFC: 129

Hypothesis: Heavier than air CFC's rise 6 to 10 miles into the stratosphere and chemically interact with the 3ppm ozone molecules at the poles, destroying them. Hence: Ozone Depletion.

Curious questions:
1. How do these CFC's cross the equator, much less through the latitudal convection systems, when the air currents, themselves, do not?

2. By what mechanism are these HTA molecules transported into the stratosphere, which is several miles above the highest convection currents of our global air circulation system?

3. Why were low tropospheric ozone levels (bad ozone) increasing at the same time as stratospheric (good ozone) levels were decreasing?

4. Ozone is O3, regardless of where it is located. So why weren't the CFC's destroying all ozone in the atmosphere, particularly at lower altitudes where CFC concentrations should be higher?

Trans-science, anyone?

The alternatives to freon and other refrigerant chemicals are much more economical, for industry, not the consumer. The efficiencies they provide are much lower, requiring more frequent servicing at lower cost to the provider. Why were the refrigeration and HVAC industries lobbying for the mandated replacement of freon and other CFC's in the mid 90's?
D
Daconia (Kebir Blue)
20 Jan 2009 14:58 Link
Bob,
I completely agree with you, hence the "theoretically"... Doesn't change the economics behind the "solution". In 10 years people will be laughing about the "global warming crisis" in the same way. They gave a Nobel out for what????

Austia,
I can't speak to other countries, but exporting freon became illegal in the US in the late 80s. The US military uses up the stockpiles we have, as the ban on CFCs doesn't apply to them.
D
Daconia (Golden Rainbow)
20 Jan 2009 15:51 Link
A moment of silence as we all watch Alfred Nobel roll over in his grave.

Alfred Nobel was a Swedish inventor, chemist, industrialist and when he had reached the end of his life of incredible achievement he left a legacy of philanthropy directed toward the awarding, year in and year out, of the greatest possible merit in the physical sciences, literature, and diplomacy. The Nobel Peace Prize, since its establishment after Nobel's death in 1896 (the first was awarded in 1901), has since becomes one of the pinnacles of modern human glory (even enshrined for board game players everywhere as a seminal lifetime achievement in the game of LIFE). Unfortunately, the process for choosing who wins the prizes, particularly the peace prize, has always been open to wide latitudes of opinion and standards for what constitutes sound peacemaking. Often it is awarded to whoever can steal headlines in any particular year for a peace treaty or accord, hence it was awarded to American President Theodore Roosevelt, and to heads of states and even terrorists who decided to try to make peace (or fool those desirous of peace of their good intentions) the world over. It has also occasionally been awarded to a dissident suffering under an oppressive regime who is trying to create a civil society, one that will not be prone towards aggressive war making. These were all, whether properly awarded or not, the precedents and largely accepted ways one could earn a once prestigious prize.

I use the word "once" because the most recent winner, former Vice-President Albert Gore, Jr., has "earned" the prize in a novel and problematic way. The Nobel committee awarded him the most recent Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts to raise global awareness to an alleged problem which supposedly promises, if unchecked, to promote global conflict and war over resources. The alleged problem is, of course, what Gore has been crying wolf over ever since 1992 when he published his alarmist book, Earth in the Balance. Gore is being awarded a prize for advancing world peace without actually having done anything at all to advance world peace. This has been true of former winners in far different contexts, i.e. Yasser Arafat won through his own duplicitous efforts to achieve peace (some saw through him at the time), and dissidents in oppressed countries are working for internal peace and long-term international peace, but usually aren't achieving anything in the short-term.

However, Gore's "peace-making" achievement lies mainly in frightening the non-scientific community with dire predictions of worldwide doom and making absurd causal linkages between variations in global temperatures and weather phenomenon (like Hurricane Katrina which was cruelly used like a piece of propaganda in his sleazy ad campaign for An Inconvenient Truth). Actual temperature measurements, by this I mean actual day-by-day measurements of the actual temperature on earth, don't even go back two centuries which is not only a blip in human history but an infinitesimally small speck of a blip in the history of the earth. To attempt to generalize from current data and make claims, knowing full well that the earth has had numerous temperature fluctuations over its history without the involvement of any human beings (both to much much cooler than present temperatures, and to much much hotter than present) is not scientific caution, but criminally reckless scaremongering.

I say this not because I think it impossible for what Gore and his supporters assert is true to be true (though I think it is absurdly improbable) but because they are more concerned about political activism inimical to liberty than about the problems in their causal reasoning and the problems with computer modeling based on imperfect data and equally imperfect assumptions. Scientists do not shout down opponents and declare debate on questions is dead. Certainly, some issues are "put to rest" empirically or due to a preponderance of evidence, or because nothing else makes as much sense, but Gore and no other proponents of man made global warming have come anywhere near that standard of evidence. Asserting that one's opponents are either nuts or bought off by the "evil corporations" allegedly most responsible for the supposed problem is not an argument, but a pathetic combination of several logical fallacies.

So back to the related but different issue of Gore winning a Nobel Peace Prize. With this action, the Nobel Committee has merely taken a further step towards making a once sought after and prestigious prize a trapping of political orthodoxy. This is fine if that's what the committee wishes the prize to become, but do not continue to refer to it in the memory of fine man or refer to it as an award to promote a noble goal. Call it what it is, something like "The Prize awarded for being in line with a select group of Swedish leftists" because that is, unfortunately, what Alfred Nobel's legacy is becoming.
F
FarmerBob
20 Jan 2009 17:26 Link
For Dac.

"If you want something said, ask a man...if you want something done, ask a woman."
-Margaret Thatcher

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
-Joseph Goebbels

"All of us who are concerned for peace and triumph of reason and justice must be keenly aware how small an influence reason and honest good will exert upon events in the political field."
-Albert Einstein
:)
N
nix001 (Fearless Blue)
20 Jan 2009 20:45 Link
FarmerBob. Wot No Answer?

Daconia. The evidence you appear to be looking for will only be found in the future and by then it will be too late to do anything about it.

Anyways peps, I see some light.
The collapse of capitalizum will help the future's environment in a massive way, as people are forced to tighten their belts, reducing the amounts that they will consume :).
The down side is that most environmental projects will be suspended, due to the lack of money governments, industry and households are going to experience. (Which is point I was getting at FarmerBob on the other thread)
Alot of you seem to think that economy determins environment. Some of you even think that that is the only way it can be.
Economy is about hedging your bets (have I brought/sold at the right price/quality?). Economy (as shown with the credit crunch/polution)is not about doing the right thing(unless theres a profit init)
Are you telling us to put our faith in people that only care about making a profit.
The Earth is'nt something that you can fix when it breaks.
And waiting for these people of profit to decide they should'nt make a profit for the sake of the future seems just plain dum.
But I'm thinking life has been taken out of their hands and put into ours to do our bit(Be conciderate. Be green)
As long as you don't burn tyres and cars when you riot, the environment might just stand a chance :)
T
The Grand Poobah (Golden Rainbow)
20 Jan 2009 23:22 Link
I was trying to point out that Corporate bigwigs don't necessarily have to follow the law.

A Business student told me that when a Corporation is worth X amount, it can use WHATEVER MEANS NEEDED to increase profit. Including the Import Of Opium.
/the Mujahadeen took over all the Opium fields in Afghanistan in 1999. Ultimately controlling 80% of the worlds opium production. The U.S., now in control, controls 99% of the Worlds opium production.


So saying that the U.S. Corps didn't dump their toxic chemicles into third world countries is a fine and dandy example of a sugar coated, peachy existance. I'm sure there is also a law prohibiting the export of Aids tainted medication?
I'm sure there is a law against U.S. Oil companies dumping excess waste in Ecuadar.
Don't forget those fancy Waste Credits. That you can BUY!!!!

Dac, you will be a good corporate lawyer, just don't forget you conscience when you packing to leave. Money is temporary, good deeds last forever.
A
Angus88 (Little Upsilon)
21 Jan 2009 09:10 Link
Yeah I agree with nix on this one. To clarify I think you mean consumerism not capitalism. On some issues profit should not be an influence.

"Are you telling us to put our faith in people that only care about making a profit."

Thats actually quite a good argument against privatization. When it comes down to it, economic benefits don't always overrule moral factors, more often then not they don't.