Everyone please read and sign if you agree. Then I'll shut up. (White Giant)

June 19, 2009

I attain level 7. It was at this point that I saw the nonexistent development index and started the poll to remove it. This poll passed unanimously but was never acknowledged in any way. Tom neither said it would or would not be removed.

Man of Peace (White Giant)
Friday, June 19, 2009 - 06:34 pm

Could you please ad the Developmental Index to the game, or remove it from the requirements to exceed level 7?

I have attained level 7 and since I have no clue what the Developmental Index is, I can't say what I would score in it. However All I need for level 8 is a few points on my FI and I am there.

If you want to keep players here you should really fix this. With out a goal what is the point?

Respectfully
MoP
--------------------------------------------------

Simcountry Game News
June 24, 2009

13. The Game level and Index popup windows [ top ]
The game level and index windows have been upgraded and include more info and also links to underlying pages.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was right around this time, my vote to remove the developmental index passed unanimously. As I stated before, the vote was not acknowledged by Tom yea or nay.

It was also right around this time that, I noticed the developmental index was removed from the requirements for level 8 on my game level and index popup window.
------------------------------------------------

I was not the only one to notice this.

Zeba (Golden Rainbow)
Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 12:18 am Click here to edit this post Level 8 exists! 150 FI, 1000 Corps, and the rest is the same as Level 7 = 300 GC's.


So seeing the devepomental index was gone. I thought wow they actually listened to my poll, and I started working nonstop towards level 8.

I was not easy!!! It took lots of time and effort. I had to purchase gold coins to buy all the extra population I needed, and by the way the more population you pack in, the faster they die off and the faster you have to buy more to replace them. It is a vicious and very expensive cycle.

This is also why I had not noticed that I was not recieveing my monthly coins for level 7
---------------------------------------------------

Sept 7, 2009

I meet all requirements listed for level 8 on my game level and index popup window.

I also get this message on my game level and index popup window.

"Congratulations. It seems like you meet the requirements for Game Level 8.
You will move to Level 8 within several hours."

So I check every month anxiously waiting...
---------------------------------------------------------
Sept 12, 2009

I realize that I have never received my monthly gold coins for level 7, nor does it seem I will ever be rewarded for level 8.

So at that point, I posted on the forum as well as sent an email.


Man of Peace (White Giant)
Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 03:39 am Click here to edit this post

I have tried to email you, however I just get...

Sorry, the page you requested was not found.

So I guess I will have to discuss this with you on the forum.

1. I have been at level 7 since June 19th, and I have never received the 10gcs per month that comes with it.

2. I have met and exceeded all requirements for level 8 since Sept 7th. However all I get is this message.

Congratulations. It seems like you meet the requirements for Game Level 8.
You will move to Level 8 within several hours.

It's been 4 days now, and still no level 8.

So any information regarding this would be greatly appreciated.

I love this game and appreciate the improvements you are making. I really like the idea of interplanetary trading.

However the main thing that keeps me, as well as many others playing, is the challenge of making the next level.

Thank You for your attention to this matter.

MoP
-------------------------------------------------------

Tom responds.

Tom Willard
Monday, September 14, 2009 - 07:03 pm Click here to edit this post

We got the email on the level 7 problem.

I don't understand the problem of mailing us. we get many mails and answer many. There are no complaints about it. The only problem we have from time to time is that when we mail, some of our messages go into some filter and people keep mailing us asking for an answer.

The mail is now with one of the engineers to look into it and we will answer it within several days.

if there is a problem we will fix it.

also, level 8 to 10 were not implemented yet.
I don't know about 7 and this is what we are now looking into.
---------------------------------------------------------------

I respond.

Man of Peace (White Giant)
Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 12:46 am Click here to edit this post

When will levels 8-10 be implemented?

If it's not implemented, then why do you list the requirements for it, and why do I get this message?

Congratulations. It seems like you meet the requirements for Game Level 8.
You will move to Level 8 within several hours.

The Simcountry community passed a vote about levels 8-10, which was never acknowledged. However the nonexistent index has been removed and I now exceed all of the requirements.

With all due respect. The only part of level 8 that is not implemented, is the part where you pay us gold coins for it.
------------------------------------------

I was not alone in feeling this was wrong.


Daelin (Little Upsilon)
Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 08:24 pm Click here to edit this post I voted. Sorry to hear about this MoP. Keep us informed if anything resolves, either about the monthly GC for lvl 7 or for the lvl 8 issue. I agree that if they have the requirements listed and you reoriented your entire strategy to fulfill them and you were able to do so (lvl 8 requirements do NOT look easy, especially with regards to the financial index), you should get the reward.

-Daelin
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Now remember this post, it flies in the face of what Tom says several days later.

Factanonverba (Fearless Blue)
Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:30 pm Click here to edit this post

what are the rewards for each level? the docx are not specific and dont cover all levels.
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It is now almost 2 weeks after I was told it would be taken care of within several days.

Tom Willard
Friday, September 25, 2009 - 02:17 pm Click here to edit this post

We promised an answer but it took some time to get into it.

We have looked into the account and the situation around the game levels and the requirements:

Game level 7 was reached on June 19 and 300 gold coins were added correctly.
10 gold coins per month, on August 19 and September 19 were not added to the account due to an error.
We have now added 20 gold coins to the account for these two months.

As to level 8:

According to the documentation you need a development index at 75 for level 8.
The development index is not implemented yet and level 8,9 and 10 are currently impossible to reach.

The message on the level window is wrong as it does not specify the requirement of the development index.

This error will be fixed ASAP.

When the development index is implemented, these game levels will become available.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once again I was not alone in feeling this was BS.

Daelin (Little Upsilon)
Friday, September 25, 2009 - 05:12 pm Click here to edit this post
Wow. I didn't realize we're supposed to take the game documentation's word over what in-game play tells us. This will be interesting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom also shorted me 10gcs. Which he did rectify when I emailed him.


On Sep 25, 2009, Gamemaster wrote:

We added ten gold coins.


The documentations "advertised" the need for a 75 development index. It

is very clear about it.


There is no development index so there are no levels 8 to 10.

I am sorry about the error it will be fixed.


Accusing us of nonsense will not help much.

The gamemaster
---------------

My response.


Nonsense?

I ask you again, how many other things in the game docs are correct?

Further more. I would have to say that something that pops up right on my country page, that I use on a daily basis to check level requirements. That "advertised" very clearly, no need for the nonexistent development index, along with a message clearly stating "I meet the requirements". Would supersede what is buried in the seriously outdated game docs.

Now maybe this is all just a mistake on your part.

However, you provide a service here. It is a very common practice in the service industry, that you have to pay for your mistakes.

As I have stated before. I spent a considerable amount of time and gold coins, to achieve what was "advertised" , right on my country page. As an attainable level.

I feel I should be compensated, in some way for your mistake.

Also I have not accused you of any "nonsense".

I have only been stating the facts.

Thanks.
MoP
-------------------------------------------

On Sep 25, 2009, Gamemaster wrote:

"The documentations "advertised" the need for a 75 development index. It

is very clear about it."
------------------------

Now remember this post?


Factanonverba (Fearless Blue)
Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:30 pm Click here to edit this post

what are the rewards for each level? the docx are not specific and dont cover all levels.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe the reason it took so long for Tom to respond about levels 8-10, is because they had to update the game docs, to cover their tracks and make their case better first???

Hmmm...

We all know how capable of stealth changes they are.
----------------------------------------------------

I'm very sorry for having annoyed some of you with my ranting.

However. Can anyone read exactly how this all went down, and honestly say, if they were in my shoes they would not deserve to be compensated in some way.

This has cost me literally hundreds of gold coins.

I'm not asking for level 8.

I'm just asking for some sort of compensation.

Remember if he can do this sort of thing to me, he can do it to all of us.

He already has done things like this, and worse to others.

I promise this is the last you will hear from me on the forums on this subject.

Everyone please sign this thread if you agree.

Thanks
MoP

I agree.

MoP Spent time and money and was informed that he had reached level 8. He should get the reward the game told him he would.


IndustMech

I see no reason for extra compensation beyond that which was due for level 7, arrears have been paid. The proper thing to do is sit on your investment for level 8, Player, until it's implemented, it should be soon. (that's what you need to be on GM about, WHEN!) It's proper to wait, what if there is/were more than one person waiting? I see nothing wrong with paying you when everyone can get paid, if they happen to qualify.

I apologize to the GM for my rant on not answering emails in a timely manner, my mistake.

Also GM:
This is another example of the clean up that has to be done on this game, why was he told that he had hit level 8 when he couldn't. Why doesn't that agree with what you claim about the documentation? There are mixed messages Tom. I've ranted about this before... can we FINALLY, please clean it up? FIRST? before you add more stuff that needs fixing?

Nix001.
Come on GM. It's like buying a pair of shoes, getting home and theres only one in the box.

MoP --

I just want to say that despite the GM decision in this case, you should be extremely proud of your accomplishment. Just reaching level 6 myself, I can't imagine the dedication it must have took to reach level 8 requirements.

Also, how long has it been since the developmental index was promised? Weeks? Months? Years? If they aren't going to add it within a reasonable time span they should put in place an alternative way to reach those levels.

GS

@Solomon

"The proper thing to do is sit on your investment for level 8"

The problem with that is it cost lots of gold coins to maintain it. With no reward in sight there is no point.

@GS

Congrats on level 6. That is no easy feat either.

"Also, how long has it been since the developmental index was promised? Weeks? Months? Years? If they aren't going to add it within a reasonable time span they should put in place an alternative way to reach those levels."

Years!!!


Everyone please only post if you agree or disagree.

I am done arguing and have exhausted all alternatives.

I simply want to take a poll here.

Thanks
MoP

<!-Quote-!>Quote:

@Solomon

"The problem with that is it cost lots of gold coins to maintain it. With no reward in sight there is no point." <!-/Quote-!>

Thank you for the perspective adjustment Player. It appears that it should be retroactive.



GAMEMASTER??!

Disgruntled,

First, I think the fact that you and so many others can get so upset about a delay in the implementation of a game feature, shows what a quality game sim country is.

Second, your achievement is momentious. I think you are the first to meet the stated requirements (except the non existant developmental index) for level 8. For that, you should feel honored.

These things said, While I do hope the GM works to implement levels 8-10, and fixes the bug for those maintaining at level 7; I would rather this be done correctly than quickly.

Sim country is a complex game and I can see why new features need to be tested, debugged, prioritized, and worked out before they are implemented.

Frankly, you are the only person to reach this level, so (in practice) this is a new issue and I can see that it takes time to work out all the kinks.

What I would like for the GM to do is announce his priority list. In other words, what are the changes we should expect soon, and which will take longer.

Specifically, I'd like the GM to put out a list every 3 months listing:

1. the features/changes he thinks will more likely than not be implemented in the next 3 months

2. The features/changes he thinks may be implemented in the next year

3. The features/changes that he plans to implement, but at a later date

4. The features/changes that he is seriousily considering implementing, but is unsure of

This will give players a heads-up about future changes and be able to plan for them.

Agreed, seems like a happy medium.

I have said before that in many ways SC is a beta. As players we need to understand that we are playing a beta version. This is a work in progress. I believe that they have fairly strong ideas on where the want to get to but that they are feeling their way along.

Some of the ideas were simply not workable, such as cashing out an empire. With limited resources that would be a huge drain on future development and simply suicide for the game in the long view.

We also need to be thankful that such a game even exists. Most of the other games that exist out there are simplistic silliness for the Nintendo/Wii crowd with short attention spans.

However, I understand the player frustrations. They bring out new features (space stations) before they fully implement features that already exist (levels) and this can be very frustrating to current players who feel betrayed at times.

Economically, their methods do make some sense though. There are not that many Level hounds playing the game, BUT there are a lot of players that use the new war engine and air drops, and will build space stations. It appears to me that they are developing features (or not fully implementing them) in an effort to maximize current cash flow.

This game is huge and its resources are very limited. The game, even when fully implemented will never have a large player base because of all of its intricacies. However, those who do play enjoy the game.

The code for this game is probably a confusing mess because of the way it has been implemented, but I doubt that they have the money to hire a full development team.

Unlessthey get an infusion of cash or change the development model (open source?), it seems to me that SC will limp along and be something of a work of love at the hobyist level.

I think that you may be expecting too much for the level of investment that exists.

'Level hounds'

"Some of the ideas were simply not workable, such as cashing out an empire."

I think you couldn't be further off the mark. W3c may not be able to cash out all the empires. But this is where a player community comes in. It is our(Active Players') duty to continue providing a cozy place for new players to settle down and get into loving this game. This will bring in the needed cash for cash outs. New players aspiring to be great presidents will most certainly invest in this game and more directly from buying coins and country along with their assets from players. Or at least that is how it should be.

It seems we are far away from the days of n00b crushing, and now I see alot more new players with bagillions of questions and plenty of motivation. I have also noticed efforts by a few presidents who are active in being available to answer questions in chat.

Another thing I have seen and am guilty of myself is ignoring these questions and requests from new players. This is proly the single most dangerous threat to player growth. Ignoring these folks often leads to them not going to full membership. It can be tiring to cater to retard question after question. I used to be one of the retards, and am arguably yet still a retard in that aspect.

If we follow the model of the world, it is that nothing is free, give some to get some back. A collective effort on the whole part of the active player base should encourage enough growth and sustain it so that new investment will come along.

Cash out is still a huge reason many stay to play this game. Including myself. That just isn't my goal atm. The cash market is the best thing towards moving in a more realistic cash out possibility, even if it is in phases or to multiple buyers over time. It has been a great help aside from destroying GC value. The gold coins are not moving off the cash market in huge amounts, and not for a fair price. This is a result of the destruction of the value of the simdollar. And restrictions that were put in place to curb cash in the game have worked, maybe too well. Maybe it is time those provisions were scaled back or curbed a bit.

SimCountry Rocks Fewls

Now I know why they call you Plato, Plato. lol

I agree, it behaves like a beta. I never thought about the evolution of the game and how that could be hindering it.

I never liked the idea of attempting to harness the 'love of money' attribute in the player base. Ask any reputable game company, money should flow one way. Ideally the players are left to ebay to profit from selling accounts and what other 'e-property' might apply to a particular game.

I do like being able to reduce our game cost to zero, but I do not agree with cash out what so ever. (I'll shut up now, I don't want to start a riot!)

<!-Quote-!>Quote:

Everyone please only post if you agree or disagree.<!-/Quote-!>

Player,
Your poll might be better in the public voting. Since I know you just set one up and it won't let you I will do it for you. There's no way we're going to be able to only post our "yes" & "no" here with out this breaking out into conversation.

Thanks Solomon.

I just posted a new poll before I read this.

We can continue to use this thread to debate.

Please limit the new thread to agree or disagree.

Thanks
MoP

There's no way that much information is going to fit, I got rid of every double [enter] only left 3 dash dividers between posts(---), to no avail. If you would like to leave a shorter version here I'll copy and paste it in the Public Voting for you. Leave me a title for it too!


Sol

This is what I just posted on the new thread.


Once again this is only meant to be a poll. If you have any comments or ideas please post them on the other thread.

I have streamlined it to only include what I am really asking. Which is, to make a long story short.

1. If you started a poll in the public voting and it passed unanimously. Then several days afterward...

2. You notice that the nonexistent index that your poll asked to have removed. Was in fact removed.

3. So then you think wow they actually listened to my poll.

4. You work very hard towards attaining the next level which is now very clearly advertised as being attainable.

5. You spend lots of gold coins in the process. Which you would not have otherwise.

6. You attain this very clearly advertised level.
You even receive a message stating that you meet all requirements.

7. You do not receive the very clearly advertised level, which you also received a message very clearly stating that you meet all requirements for.

8. You notify the GM about the issue, only to be told that it was simply a mistake on their part, that it doesn't matter what was very clearly advertised on my country page for several months, because buried in the very outdated and almost worthless game docs it very clearly states the need for the nonexistent developmental index.

The very index that a poll was passed unanimously to remove and was removed several days afterward. Not to mention that I have evidence stating that the game docs were not very clear, or even complete, 3 days prior to him making that statement.

Factanonverba (Fearless Blue)
Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:30 pm Click here to edit this post

what are the rewards for each level? the docx are not specific and dont cover all levels.
-----------------------------------------

I no longer care if levels 8-10 are ever implemented.

I still love this game.

Just not the way some things are handled by the management.

So the question I am asking here is...

If you invested time and money, that you would not have otherwise, to attain a level that was very clearly advertised as attainable.

Only to be told by the gamemaster. Sorry it was a just mistake, and then use subterfuge to make their case better.

Wouldn't you feel that you should be compensated, in some way, for your wasted time and money?

If the answer to this question is yes. please sign, I agree.

Thanks
MoP

Cool it's there. Everyone go vote!

@ Inanna

Cash out is unworkable because, according to the home page the "Fair Market Value" of all assets is about $350,000 US. If they carry that on their balance sheet as a liability, in SC terms salaries would drop to 30, debt would go up and you would have a red box warning about closure.

Right now there are 214 players online (with a minimum cash flow to SC of just over $1000). Even if there are a 1000 players, the income is only about $5000. Development and cash out simply cannot co-exist.

Just compare the off-balance sheet liability to cash people out with the real monthly income possibilities. They do not match. Look at the monthly income and take from it server expenses to see your max development budget.

The point is W3C probably has a tight budget. Just some thoughts.

Well lets try and get it higher than 214, help players protect their investment. And sell them assets in real cash. Coins are sold in RL all the time, and it should continue. I agree with you w3c has a tall order, but seriously, why would anyone who wants to play cash out the game in its' entirety. This isn't realistic. So it may not be the best example. If I could sell 100$ worth of coins to a new player, why would I want to cash out anyway? LoL I'd more than likely rinse and repeat. Wouldn't you? I'm just not hurting for cash in RL so i don't do it. I like the exciting part of the game, like war. Funny, it wasn't always that way.

LoL, it isn't a challenge Plato, no offence, you make a good point.

I agree. If the gamemaster can't keep his word when it comes to fulfilling the promises made within the game then there is really no reason for all of us to continue to pay to play this game.

No. . . !!!

The Levels were clearly not implemented. This was more than clear at the time MOP went for level 8. I am positive he has enough smarts to realize that there was one index missing at the time he went for level 8. I am equally sure he knows that W3c is busy, doing work on other parts of the game, has limited staff, etc etc.

MoP should get level 8 compensation WHEN level 8 is implememnted. Not Level 8 should be implemented as soon as MoP decides he wants to achieve a level that is nonexistant. Gimme a break.

Cut this whiny crap out already. MoP, I could pop up on WG and bring you down to level seven if you'd like. At least this whiny crap could be over with. WAIT until they put the level in.

Matt if you really feel that way, why haven't you quit yet?

I have 6 days left on my membership, so it is time to renew. Another 360 gcs. How should I use them? I know Im going to flip my lid if this kind of crap doesn't quit already. The last time we demonized the GM's over lack of moving on someone elses timetable, a bunch of players left. This kind of selfish behavior disturbs me and seems self centered. If it continues, I will take that as a threat to my own enjoyment of this game and shove that 360 right up your arses.

MoP you admitted yourself that you are short one index. You have no idea what it even will require of you. So clearly you are mistaken to think you already deserve some compensation. Give it a rest already please. Talk to Tom or Jozi through Email.

Player, Nanna can be beat, here's how!

LoL LoL LoL Solomon. . . Phunny Vid

BTW,

Renewed