Changes to Navies (Little Upsilon)

2. Navies [ top ]

Navies in Simcountry have always been very large. There was in fact no limitation on the number of weapons per navy ship. This is of course unrealistic and an update is long overdue.

The problem became even much larger after the introduction of army units that are limited in size. The only limitation on navies is in the number of weapons, per type of weapon, that can be used in a single attack.

The problem will be solved in two steps. The first one is installed in Simcountry today.

The number of navy weapons that can be used in a single attack is now reduced to 400 per weapon type. This limitation will reduce the problem as the defense will become relatively larger while an attack will become less devastating.

The next update that will be installed next week on Tuesday Feb. 10, will reduce the max size of a navy, in several steps, to the size of a large military unit and also set a maximum to the total number of weapons that can be used in a single attack.

Very large navy units will see their numbers decline and the unused weapons will be placed in the reserves.

To keep large numbers of navy weapons active, you should have more navies and distribute the available weapons over a larger number of navy units.

We will make sure that the navy remains an important part of the war game but will prevent it from being much more destructive than any other unit in the game.

^^^^OK, so how many weapons can a single aircraft carrier support? It would be nice to know how many little fleets to split my big navies into, to avoid deactivations...

I think these changes will put an end to the war game. Navies will be slaughtered against garrisons of 2000 defensive weapons. War will become too costly. I have a war later today, so I will test out these new limits. I fear my navy will be battered by these new limits.
Changing the limits with no warning is going to cause real problems. Some of us are in the middle of a large war. We are set up to fight the way the game was, changing things is going to cause problems.
Reducing the power of navies is going to greatly reduce your ability to wage war far from your home. 3000k range for bombers is not enough. Real life bombers can fly much further plus inflight refueling. Changes to the air war will need to be made to make up for the reduced naval power.
Or war will become a battle of c3s

I think that the war game will change to "tabbing between" 10 different fleets, but I would have to test the destructive power of 400 NFP against garrisons to be sure. I'm not that experienced in war, but if 400 NFP can still take down a garrison relatively quickly (even if it does take two rounds for big garrisons), it'll just be a matter of switching between ten fleets often.

I just need to know how many aircraft carriers I need before the 10th, lol.

their have always been cheaper ways to destroy garrisons, than nfp. pb are cheaper, more effective (for what they hit,) and use allot less manpower. (they use less than half of sims) the problem is they are a little less versatile...and less mobile...

my concern, is the "attack target," button, when attacking fleets, if that is removed, then this is cool, if not, then navies are effectively obsolete. that is, when the max weapons are reduced to that of a large military unit, (3600ish???)

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Reducing the power of navies is going to greatly reduce your ability to wage war far from your home.<!-/Quote-!>

That has been the stated goal of W3C since the inception of the new war engine. I am glad to see more realism interjected into the game. Thanks W3C.

Too much realism is a bad thing..this is a game after all.
You play with other players, if they happen to be on the otherside of the world then you cant play.
The reduced navy will reduce game playability. Less enjoyment equals less players.

perhaps changing it on other worlds may be fine,but,,The players on FB DO want[for the most part] to fight.Please take a little time to think about such a vast change. thanks,,Andy

I think the change would be more reasonable if there was some sort of long range alternative, such as marines, or transport ships.

I agree that in real life, navies aren't the primary force used to conquer another country, but they definitely are used to transport ground forces to other places across the world.

Give this change a chance, and let's see where W3C is headed with it. Yes, it'll mean changing tactics, but isn't changing tactics and adjusting to different styles of warfare what the wargame is all about anyway?

Ok, I have always found it unrealistic that you could have an unlimited amount of naval fighters on one carrier so that aspect is acceptable to me. Naval forces were like a death star in this game before now. However it has been possible in real life to have a strike of over 800-1000 planes from a naval task force ( i.e operation hailstone in ww2 ). So why not limit the attacks to 1000 weapons combined rather than putting limits on each type.
However, if you are definitely going to stick w/ an attack limit of 400 for each type of weapons, then please fix the range of defensive missiles back to 2000 km as the documentation states. Right now, defensive missiles have unlimited range. That's not realistic either.

Navies are used to smash any defense from a long distance with hardly any need to invade countries and use army units to win a war.

Navies should be able to help but cannot play the decisive role in wars, let alone, destroy units and garrisons that are limited in size and can never really fight back.

We hope that this will bring back more balance to the war game. we will see the results and will tune parameters gradually to achieve such balance.

This change was by the way, requested by sevral very experienced players who know the game for a long time and who alterted us to some recent wars that were conducted in a ridiculous way, using huge navies to destroy defenses that had no chance against the unlimited force of such navies.

The unlimited size of the navies originated with the previous war engine. During the transition to the new war engine, all other war units where reorganized is a way the reduced the numbers of weapons involved in each attack or in the defense. The navies remained unchanged. This was clearly overdue.

Thanks Tom, but may I ask if there are any plans to introduce troop ships? This would help make navies more realistic.....

I removed one reaction to this change from this discussion.

The player clearly thought that this change is wrong. He probably thinks that this change will damage the war game.

This is fine. His opinion should be expressed.

However, the choice of words and insults he used were unacceptable and he will not be on the forum for a while.

We plan to add transport ships that will move army units to remote locations, in the same way air transport is doing so now.

Ships are larger and they will be able to move larger quantities.

"Troops" is not clear. We have soldiers on jeeps and we have a lot of military as crews with each type of weapon. we do not have troops as such.

When I said troops, i did infact mean units Tom. My mistake, sorry.

Do you have any idea when the new ships would be implemented, and what their range would be? I really can't see you allowing us to have them travel worldwide!!!

Another good addition if you are allowing military transport ships, would be to include marines and landing craft.

Also, when are trains being added???

Thanks again Tom.....

Reduction in the size of the navies will not end thier usefullness, it will however make it possible to knock those carriers out of commission.

I personally have lobbied for a long time to limit the number of weapons a carrier group carries along with several others.

Every other military base has limits, carriers need them also. Reduction in the attack limits was not something I asked for, yet I do not know that this will be an issue anyway.

400 NFP is enough to strip an air defense, just will take you slightly longer.

400 Guilded missile frigates are enough to deal with defense.

400 Guided missile cruisers are enough to destroy a capital, city, town, military base.

What this will end is showing up off someone's coast with a fleet containing 30K Naval defense weapons (of each type) that is next to impossible to knock out of commission.

For those of you that rely on that tactic, you'll either have to learn to deal with the same restrictions your target has, or build more fleets and risk the total loss of weapons in them once they are destroyed.

I agree that the range and use of the air force needs to be more long range.

Bloody hell TP. Long time no see dude. We were getting worried about you man!!!

Tom, since you are reading this thread, would you mind answering my original question of how many total weapons a single carrier group could support?

10000 single weapons per carrier? 2000? 3600? Keep in mind I am asking for the total SUM of weapons that could be in a single fleet...the uber-navies that you seek to break up have at least 40000 (10k navy missile batteries, 10k navy missile int batteries, 20k NFP).

I get that I can only use 400 weapons of a single type per attack, but carrier groups will still have to support multiple kinds of weapons, both offensive and defensive. Hence my request to know the total cap per carrier you have planned.

I seek a hard-number answer to this question so that it is possible to prepare for this change IN ADVANCE. Instead of simply having the change occur and finding 80% of my navy deactivated.

I need to know how many carriers I need to procure, and I believe this is a very reasonable question.

I have an idea. How about fixing the gear in the navies that don't work before we start tweeking the stuff that does.

Land2Sea missles and both types of destroyers have flaws and don't work at all. Light attack boats and Seal teams are also a joke. I have invested a huge amount of money into these and its all for nuttin'.

Oh yeah, how about fixing the offensive aa batts while your at it.


Thanks
Dirt

argh laguna and co start losing countries so the game changes to save them. Nice

Well the new changes result in massive NFP losses and few interceptor losses.
Attacking a supplu unit with 150 jeeps in, supported by 2 interceptor wings I am losinr roughly 300NFP to 300 Interceptors.
This is far to in favour of the defensive forces. It is now next to impossible to take out air defense. Countries with 100 Interceptor wings are now untouchable. Unless you have 80 000 NFP lying about just to take down airdefense.

Air defense has been way too weak since the new engine was instituted. Glad to see it back to the old days.

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Countries with 100 Interceptor wings are now untouchable.<!-/Quote-!>

Good.

War game is dead.
Good By Sim

I have 80,000 NFP lying around. Don't you?

I thought everyone did.


I always said people oughtn't rely too heavily on their navies, and should have some flexibility and know other strategies.

All the same, 400 is low... I'm not the happiest about it but it is incredibly more balanced now.

Not only were interceptors outgunned by the stats, but they were outnumbered. This, I think, will be better.