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Forum General Aristotle on Politics (Kebir Blue)

Aristotle on Politics (Kebir Blue)

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Jojo T. Hun
16 Nov 2010 06:20 Link
Filed in the name of "the people", right? Otherwise you'll be the cornerstone of another corporate scam, and we'll have to rise up against your oppression of the hungering masses.
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Parsifal
16 Nov 2010 14:34 Link
Jojo--i'm sure we'd see legislation enacted to protect us from PH's scam. lol
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Solomon Grundy (Little Upsilon)
16 Nov 2010 16:35 Link
Actually, they would take it over and change it into business as usual all the while praising PH for her amazing accomplishment.

See here:
They are not serving the country in which they rule, this has become obvious. They have an objective. Watch what they do. They say smaller government and double it's size. They say less tax we get more. Oh and war, war, war.

What a dark time in history. A time in which nations retarded their own children... God help us.

I'm tellin ya, these are things nations don't do to themselves. It's like someone has hacked America's SC account, got in there and started jacking the education index, financial index, nationalizing corporations instead of leaving them private, jacking taxes, poisoning the population and declaring war on a bunch of countries.

Yeah, Americans wouldn't do this... We aren't like that... These aren't Americans, not like any Americans I've ever met anyway.

Oops what topic is this? (checking) Oh good Aristotle. He'd agree with me.

<!-Quote-!>Quote:

Few will have the greatness to bend history itself but each of us can work to change a small portion of events. In the total of all those acts will be written the history of this generation.


Robert Kennedy<!-/Quote-!>

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Solomon Grundy (Little Upsilon)
16 Nov 2010 17:15 Link
We are under attack. You would be wise to read and reread the following carefully
It's a speech in it's entirety it's worth the time to patiently read.

A word from the last REAL President of the United States.


John F. Kennedy

(Directly from the JFK Presidential Library website- I added '(laughter)' because I have the audio.)


The President and the Press: Address before the American Newspaper Publishers Association
President John F. Kennedy
Waldorf-Astoria Hotel
New York City, April 27, 1961


Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen:

I appreciate very much your generous invitation to be here tonight.

You bear heavy responsibilities these days and an article I read some time ago reminded me of how particularly heavily the burdens of present day events bear upon your profession.

You may remember that in 1851 the New York Herald Tribune under the sponsorship and publishing of Horace Greeley, employed as its London correspondent an obscure journalist by the name of Karl Marx.

We are told that foreign correspondent Marx, stone broke, and with a family ill and undernourished, constantly appealed to Greeley and managing editor Charles Dana for an increase in his munificent salary of $5 per installment, a salary which he and Engels ungratefully labeled as the "lousiest petty bourgeois cheating."

But when all his financial appeals were refused, Marx looked around for other means of livelihood and fame, eventually terminating his relationship with the Tribune and devoting his talents full time to the cause that would bequeath the world the seeds of Leninism, Stalinism, revolution and the cold war.

If only this capitalistic New York newspaper had treated him more kindly;(laughter) if only Marx had remained a foreign correspondent, history might have been different. And I hope all publishers will bear this lesson in mind the next time they receive a poverty-stricken appeal for a small increase in the expense account from an obscure newspaper man. (laughter)

I have selected as the title of my remarks tonight "The President and the Press." Some may suggest that this would be more naturally worded "The President Versus the Press." But those are not my sentiments tonight.

It is true, however, that when a well-known diplomat from another country demanded recently that our State Department repudiate certain newspaper attacks on his colleague it was unnecessary for us to reply that this Administration was not responsible for the press, for the press had already made it clear that it was not responsible for this Administration. (laughter)

Nevertheless, my purpose here tonight is not to deliver the usual assault on the so-called one party press. On the contrary, in recent months I have rarely heard any complaints about political bias in the press except from a few Republicans.(laughter) Nor is it my purpose tonight to discuss or defend the televising of Presidential press conferences. I think it is highly beneficial to have some 20,000,000 Americans regularly sit in on these conferences to observe, if I may say so, the incisive, the intelligent and the courteous qualities displayed by your Washington correspondents.

Nor, finally, are these remarks intended to examine the proper degree of privacy which the press should allow to any President and his family.

If in the last few months your White House reporters and photographers have been attending church services with regularity, that has surely done them no harm.(laughter)

On the other hand, I realize that your staff and wire service photographers may be complaining that they do not enjoy the same green privileges at the local golf courses that they once did.

It is true that my predecessor did not object as I do to pictures of one's golfing skill in action. But neither on the other hand did he ever bean a Secret Service man.

My topic tonight is a more sober one of concern to publishers as well as editors.

I want to talk about our common responsibilities in the face of a common danger. The events of recent weeks may have helped to illuminate that challenge for some; but the dimensions of its threat have loomed large on the horizon for many years. Whatever our hopes may be for the future--for reducing this threat or living with it--there is no escaping either the gravity or the totality of its challenge to our survival and to our security--a challenge that confronts us in unaccustomed ways in every sphere of human activity.

This deadly challenge imposes upon our society two requirements of direct concern both to the press and to the President--two requirements that may seem almost contradictory in tone, but which must be reconciled and fulfilled if we are to meet this national peril. I refer, first, to the need for a far greater public information; and, second, to the need for far greater official secrecy.

I

The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it. Even today, there is little value in opposing the threat of a closed society by imitating its arbitrary restrictions. Even today, there is little value in insuring the survival of our nation if our traditions do not survive with it. And there is very grave danger that an announced need for increased security will be seized upon by those anxious to expand its meaning to the very limits of official censorship and concealment. That I do not intend to permit to the extent that it is in my control. And no official of my Administration, whether his rank is high or low, civilian or military, should interpret my words here tonight as an excuse to censor the news, to stifle dissent, to cover up our mistakes or to withhold from the press and the public the facts they deserve to know.

But I do ask every publisher, every editor, and every newsman in the nation to reexamine his own standards, and to recognize the nature of our country's peril. In time of war, the government and the press have customarily joined in an effort based largely on self-discipline, to prevent unauthorized disclosures to the enemy. In time of "clear and present danger," the courts have held that even the privileged rights of the First Amendment must yield to the public's need for national security.

Today no war has been declared--and however fierce the struggle may be, it may never be declared in the traditional fashion. Our way of life is under attack. Those who make themselves our enemy are advancing around the globe. The survival of our friends is in danger. And yet no war has been declared, no borders have been crossed by marching troops, no missiles have been fired.

If the press is awaiting a declaration of war before it imposes the self-discipline of combat conditions, then I can only say that no war ever posed a greater threat to our security. If you are awaiting a finding of "clear and present danger," then I can only say that the danger has never been more clear and its presence has never been more imminent.

It requires a change in outlook, a change in tactics, a change in missions--by the government, by the people, by every businessman or labor leader, and by every newspaper. For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations.

Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed. It conducts the Cold War, in short, with a war-time discipline no democracy would ever hope or wish to match.

Nevertheless, every democracy recognizes the necessary restraints of national security--and the question remains whether those restraints need to be more strictly observed if we are to oppose this kind of attack as well as outright invasion.

For the facts of the matter are that this nation's foes have openly boasted of acquiring through our newspapers information they would otherwise hire agents to acquire through theft, bribery or espionage; that details of this nation's covert preparations to counter the enemy's covert operations have been available to every newspaper reader, friend and foe alike; that the size, the strength, the location and the nature of our forces and weapons, and our plans and strategy for their use, have all been pinpointed in the press and other news media to a degree sufficient to satisfy any foreign power; and that, in at least in one case, the publication of details concerning a secret mechanism whereby satellites were followed required its alteration at the expense of considerable time and money.

The newspapers which printed these stories were loyal, patriotic, responsible and well-meaning. Had we been engaged in open warfare, they undoubtedly would not have published such items. But in the absence of open warfare, they recognized only the tests of journalism and not the tests of national security. And my question tonight is whether additional tests should not now be adopted.

The question is for you alone to answer. No public official should answer it for you. No governmental plan should impose its restraints against your will. But I would be failing in my duty to the nation, in considering all of the responsibilities that we now bear and all of the means at hand to meet those responsibilities, if I did not commend this problem to your attention, and urge its thoughtful consideration.

On many earlier occasions, I have said--and your newspapers have constantly said--that these are times that appeal to every citizen's sense of sacrifice and self-discipline. They call out to every citizen to weigh his rights and comforts against his obligations to the common good. I cannot now believe that those citizens who serve in the newspaper business consider themselves exempt from that appeal.

I have no intention of establishing a new Office of War Information to govern the flow of news. I am not suggesting any new forms of censorship or any new types of security classifications. I have no easy answer to the dilemma that I have posed, and would not seek to impose it if I had one. But I am asking the members of the newspaper profession and the industry in this country to reexamine their own responsibilities, to consider the degree and the nature of the present danger, and to heed the duty of self-restraint which that danger imposes upon us all.

Every newspaper now asks itself, with respect to every story: "Is it news?" All I suggest is that you add the question: "Is it in the interest of the national security?" And I hope that every group in America--unions and businessmen and public officials at every level-- will ask the same question of their endeavors, and subject their actions to the same exacting tests.

And should the press of America consider and recommend the voluntary assumption of specific new steps or machinery, I can assure you that we will cooperate whole-heartedly with those recommendations.

Perhaps there will be no recommendations. Perhaps there is no answer to the dilemma faced by a free and open society in a cold and secret war. In times of peace, any discussion of this subject, and any action that results, are both painful and without precedent. But this is a time of peace and peril which knows no precedent in history.

II

It is the unprecedented nature of this challenge that also gives rise to your second obligation--an obligation which I share. And that is our obligation to inform and alert the American people--to make certain that they possess all the facts that they need, and understand them as well--the perils, the prospects, the purposes of our program and the choices that we face.

No President should fear public scrutiny of his program. For from that scrutiny comes understanding; and from that understanding comes support or opposition. And both are necessary. I am not asking your newspapers to support the Administration, but I am asking your help in the tremendous task of informing and alerting the American people. For I have complete confidence in the response and dedication of our citizens whenever they are fully informed.

I not only could not stifle controversy among your readers--I welcome it. This Administration intends to be candid about its errors; for as a wise man once said: "An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it." We intend to accept full responsibility for our errors; and we expect you to point them out when we miss them.

Without debate, without criticism, no Administration and no country can succeed--and no republic can survive. That is why the Athenian lawmaker Solon decreed it a crime for any citizen to shrink from controversy. And that is why our press was protected by the First Amendment-- the only business in America specifically protected by the Constitution- -not primarily to amuse and entertain, not to emphasize the trivial and the sentimental, not to simply "give the public what it wants"--but to inform, to arouse, to reflect, to state our dangers and our opportunities, to indicate our crises and our choices, to lead, mold, educate and sometimes even anger public opinion.

This means greater coverage and analysis of international news--for it is no longer far away and foreign but close at hand and local. It means greater attention to improved understanding of the news as well as improved transmission. And it means, finally, that government at all levels, must meet its obligation to provide you with the fullest possible information outside the narrowest limits of national security--and we intend to do it.

III

It was early in the Seventeenth Century that Francis Bacon remarked on three recent inventions already transforming the world: the compass, gunpowder and the printing press. Now the links between the nations first forged by the compass have made us all citizens of the world, the hopes and threats of one becoming the hopes and threats of us all. In that one world's efforts to live together, the evolution of gunpowder to its ultimate limit has warned mankind of the terrible consequences of failure.

And so it is to the printing press--to the recorder of man's deeds, the keeper of his conscience, the courier of his news--that we look for strength and assistance, confident that with your help man will be what he was born to be: free and independent.
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Parsifal (Kebir Blue)
16 Nov 2010 18:07 Link
so, who is the enemy/s? G20, UN, Rep/Dems, Big Business, Siros, Israel, Big Labor, Ivy League universities, Goldman Sachs, or all of the above and a few more.
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Scarlet (Little Upsilon)
16 Nov 2010 19:53 Link
Parsifal, I'm not necessarily a pacifist, but ideally, we shouldn't be involving ourselves in wars that do little to protect the security of our nation - but from an honest, long-term perspective. It's not lightly that we should send people to fight and die overseas. Whether or not most of our military actually is being used to promote business interests over security interests would be beyond the scope of my knowledge and not something I'd want to get into right now. I'll just say that I still have some faith - or at least much hope - that when the President sends troops somewhere, he working with the current and future security of American citizens and troops as the prime consideration.

As far as your last statement, I don't understand how it could be "the worst of all bondage" so the statement doesn't make me angry, just very curious on what precisely you mean - especially since it should make me angry. I'll bite: how is it the worst of all bondage?

Solomon, I fail to see how the speech relates to conspiracy.
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Parsifal (Kebir Blue)
16 Nov 2010 22:10 Link
Scarlet--my statement on bondage is a personal projection. to "me" living into your statement would be bondage. it's akin to being an agoraphobic who is afraid to go outside or to interact with others. For me the good life is about being relational, even when those relationships end in loss, which they all do. i've been very successful in my life and i have given myself to many and many have given themselves for me. i would not be who i am now, if it were not for those relationships. We humans are social creatures with all the frailties of our relationships. i've known numerous people who have been emotially hurt by others, who are bitter and angry and swear off relationships because of the pain they cause. They may keep a strong outer facade but inside they are hurting, angry and lost. on the other hand we have to realize that people as well as institutions are imperfect. in the face of that imperfection, it's easy to feel powerless and angry because they don't live up to our high expectation--so we reject them in total.

maybe we are putting our faith in the wrong places.
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Solomon Grundy (Little Upsilon)
17 Nov 2010 07:39 Link
Wow dude, did you read it?

<!-Quote-!>Quote:

For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations.

Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed. It conducts the Cold War, in short, with a war-time discipline no democracy would ever hope or wish to match.

Nevertheless, every democracy recognizes the necessary restraints of national security--and the question remains whether those restraints need to be more strictly observed if we are to oppose this kind of attack as well as outright invasion.<!-/Quote-!>



This is NOT an internet conspiracy theorist... It's THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

The intent is not to support, prove or disprove conspiracy theory or fact it is to demonstrate that yes, in fact, we are under attack.
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Parsifal (Kebir Blue)
17 Nov 2010 13:06 Link
I assume Kennedy was talking about the Soviet Union and Communism. Is that what you're talking about. In Kennedy's day things like the UN, and all other international groups were considered by some as involved in the international communist conspriracy. With the fall of the Soviet Union, there's been a shift in conspiracy theories to everything from the IMF, the G20, God, Islamic extremeists, Obama, Ivy League schools, Goldman Sachs etc.,etc.,etc. No doubt that in Kennedy's time the Soviet Union was the main adversary. Today, is seems less focused. It seems to me that there are a lot of large/powerful groups that are seeking to consolidate in themselves, more power. Help me understand better what you mean.
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Parsifal (Kebir Blue)
17 Nov 2010 15:06 Link
I went back to one of your earlier posts and it struck me that your image of the statue of the eagle as "lucifer" might be what/who you're talking about as the conspiracy. am i right? If so, that puts the conversation into a completely different realm.
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Solomon Grundy (Little Upsilon)
17 Nov 2010 18:30 Link
You did Parsifal? I realized that he's jokes about communism which the cold war has been going on for 15 years at this point. What's changed that there is such an emergency in 1961.

No, you're missing it. He's joking about the soviet union and then says: "My topic tonight is a more sober one"

It's obvious that it's not the communists. They use armies by day. You really have to stuggle to take it like that.

This is, as I stated, about whether or not the USA is under attack. It looks to me like it is and by the same punks that JFK is talking about.

Ok... Lets get another United States President's oppinion so that we all really have to force our heads into the sand, and see if we think he's talking about Russia too.

Remember hindsight is 20/20.

President Eisenhower


I stumbled across this. I thought it was pretty good. More presidents and what they say.

New World Order & World Leaders.
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Solomon Grundy (Little Upsilon)
17 Nov 2010 19:14 Link
Bottom line. Politics are weapons of subversion in many cases.
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Scarlet (Golden Rainbow)
17 Nov 2010 23:06 Link
Parsifal: Is it really service to others when you do something for somebody you care about? I would consider that I'm doing myself the real service!

It's difficult to explain beyond that, but I think you'll agree that helping out a friend isn't the same thing as helping out a stranger. My answer is the reason one is completely natural and the other is not easy... also, the reason why I would do one and not the other.
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Parsifal (Kebir Blue)
17 Nov 2010 23:36 Link
SG--now we're getting somewhere.

I've been hearing about the New World Order and the Illuminati ever since my mother took me to John Birch Society meetings back in 1956. As the people who believe in this movement will tell you, the Illumnati goes back hundreds, maybe thousands of years. Even a significant number of the signers of the Declaration and Constitution were FreeMasons. Did they conform to those tenets that are attributed to the Illuminati/New World Order? They certainly had there own self interest at heart.

there is no doubt those in power pass that power on to their young (skull and bones). And there's no doubt that they network in the circles of power that you and I don't have access.
As far as their influence on world events, you can even make an argument that the war in Afganistan is going on to ensure that the heroin trade is controlled by the powerful western forces of the New World Order to keep the rest of us in a drug fog.
But if they've been around for centuries and are becoming more powerful what to do. Using the logic of the conspirator theorist, you could make the argument, and some have, that Hitler was the righteous one who was trying to eliminate the evil illuminati (Rothchild's, Zionists, Western Illuminati) That would be a real stretch. so, what to do? Most people lay back and enjoy it. Or they listen to commercials telling them what will make them happy as they're taking another toke to deaden the senses. So, the first thing we need to do is sober up, literally and figuratively. Get off the SOMA. But you can't attack the idea of a conspiracy because it's too amorphous. We know there's an enemy out there, we just can't put our finger on it. So, we attribute it to all sorts of things and then bind it together as the New World Order.
In the Old Testament, the prophets continually berated the Kings and the poeple for worshiping false gods, sayint that the only answer was to worship Yahweh. When Jesus preached he basically said the same thing--"you are worshiping the wrong things and you will reap the whirlwind" (not an actual quote) But the bottom line of both the old and new testament was Love God and Love Neighbor. Those four simple words need a lot of unpacking, but bottom line is that we have a choice as to how we will live our lives and the way of Light is what all the great religions have said, that compassion, living the simple life and caring for neighbor, in honor to God is our salvation.
religion has a lot of its own baggage but at its core it says that we're not God and that God's creation will continue whether we blow ourselves up or not. That's a very sobering thought. But,we make the choice. and it's both individual as well as collective. We can't live life in isolation.
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Solomon Grundy (Little Upsilon)
18 Nov 2010 06:22 Link
<!-Quote-!>Quote:

and caring for neighbor, in honor to God is our salvation.<!-/Quote-!>

I have a feeling you know better than that. I would call it a result not a means. But that's more of a discussion for a private chat.


Otherwise I really enjoyed the read. You make a lot of sense and I agree.
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Scarlet (Little Upsilon)
18 Nov 2010 06:54 Link
Here is what I think about the New World Order.

I don't think it's a conspiracy. I don't think it's secret. I don't think it's organized.

I think everything that happens that appears to be a step toward the NWO is the result of misguided activists and opportunistic power-seekers. The activists sincerely promote policy that leads to an authoritarian society believing that they'll create a better world. The power-seekers are smart enough to see the trend toward authoritarianism and do what they need to do to be sure they're on top and others are beneath them.

I think drugs, nepotism, extremism, gun control, censorship, corruption, socialism, racism, elitism, corporatism, statism, etc. are what they are. They aren't tools of a vast conspiracy. They are the result of "will to power," of wealth equalization, of ALL ideologies opposed to freedom. Collectively, they are the combination of short-sighted ignorance and basic power-mongering.

I don't think it's a vast, organized conspiracy. I think it's a trend. I think it's a dreadful trend caused by the destruction of the individual in favor of "the greater good." It's the slow, steady death of a free society that has lost it's faith in the free market, in private property, and in the sovereignty of the individual. It's not perpetuated in elitist circles. It's perpetuated in the words - "the greater good." It's perpetuated in anything and everything that says one should submit before the good of society, the greatest good for the greatest number... because behind that you have a question: Who determines the greatest good? Who decides who is part of the greatest number? Somebody must decide who to sacrifice for the sake of everyone. Will it be Big Business, Big Government, or Big Labor that gets to decide? Take your pick, but it certainly won't be the individual. Watch democracy slowly turn to mobocracy. Watch the rise of demogogues whose sole ambition is power at the price of catering to the mob.

What is happening is that we are sacrificing just a little bit of liberty at a time to get just a little security... Social Security, Job Security, Homeland Security, Economic Security. We do it under the name of freedom: Freedom from Fear, Freedom from Want. We do it to protect "freedom," only we're giving up freedom to do it. Freedom from Want and from Fear, these are the modern form of bread and circuses. The creation of a complacent mob is not accomplished by deviousness... it's accomplished by the most noble goals imaginable.
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Solomon Grundy (Little Upsilon)
18 Nov 2010 07:06 Link
Scarlet, a man who made it all the way to President of United States and walked in the same circles of power that we're discussing says the exact opposite as your first 4 sentences.

Literally. I can copy and paste him saying the exact opposite.


Sorry dude, you're cool and all but his words carry more weight.

_________________________________________________________

Wow, the more I go over what you've written the more f***ed up it gets.


<!-Quote-!>Quote:

I think everything that happens that appears to be a step toward the NWO is the result of misguided activists...<!-/Quote-!>



Now THAT's crazy!
C
Cold Rolling (White Giant)
18 Nov 2010 07:17 Link
To Parsifal --- Not a good feeling i think... :D

Just trying to have a look ahead. Talking about taxation or whatever without having a general look about where societies are evolving to is quite senseless. Corporations and capitalism fail to interact with the growing powers of extraeconomical forces. Above all on the field of economical externalities.

Have you guys ever heard about biopolitics?

http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/biopolitical-capitalism/

http://jdeanicite.typepad.com/i_cite/2010/03/biopolitics-as-event-commonwealth.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biopower

Maybe I am OT, if someb is interested we can start a trend about
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Solomon Grundy (Little Upsilon)
18 Nov 2010 08:59 Link
Good video Sir.

I've liked Gerald Celente since I first listened to him.

I find it interesting and a bit disturbing that the NIA is naive enough to use a pyramid image in their logo.
They should know better.
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Solomon Grundy
18 Nov 2010 09:44 Link
Here's a little one that pissed me off. The 1 year annivisary of 911.

It's a short clip

It's the eye of horus out of ancient Egypt. Or the all seeing eye of the mason if you believe the later deception. Goes back farther than the Pharos though, the Pharos only adopted the power derived from the service to that demon from the cultures before them.

(note the CBS logo in the lower right, almost creepy)
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Parsifal (Kebir Blue)
18 Nov 2010 16:00 Link
Scarlet-- i have difficulty judging motive. i don't think any act is totally altruistic. yes, it's probably easier to help a friend than a stranger. with strangers, we generally don't get very close to them. with friends it might be different. thanks though for the explanation.
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Parsifal (Kebir Blue)
18 Nov 2010 22:33 Link
SG/Scarlet/SSA
My problem with conspiracy theories is that in most cases they only tell you the problem and not a solution. At least NIA suggest buying gold. short of lining up all those "we" think are to blame, up against the wall and shooting them, there aren't many alternatives given. those kind of solutions are usually like moving chairs around on the deck of the Titanic. we just rearrange the players a bit. That's what's probably what's going to happen with Tea Party efforts. Historically, there are some ways of fundamentally bringing systemic change that doesn't just move chairs. Ghandi, MLK, Vietnam protestors, have used mass protest to bring change. the reason that it worked is that enough people decided not to play the game in the old manner. "i'm not going to ride your buses, or buy your products, or fight your war until you change what you're doing." "i'm going to sit in the president of the university's office until we students have a voice."

80% of all people with recent mortgages are upside down on those mortgages and are facing eventual foreclosure. what would happen if everyone decided not to pay anymore. do you think, meaningful changes in mortgage terms might occur? or would everyone be forcably evicted?

currently, wall street is very concerned that the "retail investor" (that's all us snooks) are not investing in the market. Can you blame people, considering all that's gone on on wall street and Washington in the past three years. People have made the decision not to buy stocks. But we have short memories and we'll eventually go back to investing. would there be any meaningful change in wall street if we all said "hell no, i not going to invest until you clean things up".

on an individual basis, we all have the choice of not buying into the call of the "dominant culture" to buy,buy,buy. we can make choices to live a life based on a different set of values than what we've heard from the media. we can buy or invest in companies that are ethical and fair (as you see it). it may not change things but at least you've made a statement. and who knows, if enough people make different choices on the way they live their lives, something might happen.
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Parsifal (Kebir Blue)
18 Nov 2010 22:57 Link
Cold Rolling--
The authors of a couple of your cites refer to Michael Foucault. He's a bit opaque in his writing but I think I get his gist. He deals a lot with how power systems work in a civilized society. He contemplates "a dual conception of power: power over life (the administration and production of life associated with government of populations) and then another, power of life, that strives for an alternative existence." As I understand it, the first "power over life" has to do more with how those who have the power manipulate the system to control things. One way is to aggregate people into categories like, male, female, white, black, Christian, Jew, Capitalist, Socialist, etc. This immediately separates us from each other and these catagories become important in defining who we are. It's nice and tidy but while it creates order of sorts, also creates separation that impedes conversation and association.

On the other hand "power of life" implies freedom and that we are subjects and not objects. We then are "I's" and not "It's". Much of our conversation on this thread is a reaction to living in a system where we feel like "It's". Most of us want to be seen as having value and freedom and not being catagorized in the many ways that this happens resulting in the diminishing of our humanity.

this is a very brief and limited explanation of some of what I understand Foucault's thinking to be. I stand to be corrected and welcome comments.
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Scarlet
19 Nov 2010 02:43 Link
Solomon, I'm pretty sure that he was referencing the covert actions of the KGB. Just a thought.

Cold Rolling, neat little theory. It explains a world in which society is literally an organism. If only we lived in one...