Loans (Golden Rainbow)

Psycho Honey

There was no intention to offend you at all.
If you feel it was offensive I do apologize.
As I saw it, he just did not know you can loan more than 10T. The last sentence escaped me completely. I don't know what it was about.

I also did not know about any help you gave to others and I did not suggest you never did.

I do think that at the end, you should measure earnings in gold coins and you are able to exchange cash into gold coins and the 1200T is now worth 2 x what it was before.

as to loaning 300T. There are players who have 10 time that. we have not prevented it but made it a little harder.

It was never our intention to have players sit on their money and make a fortune from interest.
it was even worse before.
interest rates are 30% per real year and far too high.

This is why we have reduced rates in the past and have the financial services compensate for some of it.

reducing the rates to 3 or 5% and removing the financial services would be probably less controversial but the way it works now, benefits the players with a smaller amount of cash reserves.

There are many good reasons to increase the value of game money. There is no true value in the game and the amounts being traded are a fraction of the total amount available.

shortages will never occur in the current market. most probably it will stay where we leave it.
There is no way to "compute" what the real value is and nobody would be able to say where it goes or stops.

we have a measure we use. It is not a true value at all but rather part of our long term vision and we take decisions according to this model.

Warren Buffett gave more than half of his fortune to charity and committed to give everything he owns.

The Financial services

The funancial services do not harm 95%+ of the players.
and for players with a lot of money, they cost a fraction of the interest income.

In the past, before money could be stored on the direct market account. there was a discussion about it and at the time, one of our alternatives was to reduce interest rates and reduce the financial services and end up with much lower rates and no financial services.

I think that this is probably a better solution because the financial services feel like an arbitrary measure. lower rates make sense as 30% is 10 times too high.

Looking at this from a middle standpoint seeing both sides

I can agreed with the GM loans are too high.
I also agree with the players that the Fin Tax should be removed.
I had 50T in cash and lost i think 800B in 3-4months to it

---Possible Solutions---

What about reducing the loans and to even allowing players to set there own rates 5% being the minimum and 30% the max and maybe increasing the loan from 120months to 240months(to help players out cut down monthly payments)

Even set it up like buying goods...the player searches for the best loan. If the best loan rate is 13% that's what you get... Little competition never hurt anything. What about even allowing us to directly offer loans to people. I know my allies have needed cash but there was no way of giving them. A direct loan to a country or CEO would allow them to get the cash they need at a lower rate. This might help players out within Feds/Common Markets even players who want to help new players build up giving them a 5% loan would go along way more then a 30% loans

As you said about Warren Buffet giving his fortune to charity. Sim Country has that its called Relief Aid but it does nothing but boost your score. Ever think of making it increase welfare? Welfare has amazing potential if we can figure effective, logical, and easy ways to apply uses. I can see production being effected, higher Brithrates, Highest welfare being on the Security counsel, Ever though of welfare = the lvl of stable population. 130welfare = 130M pop being the cap?

The tax on capital gains directly affects investment decisions, the mobility and flow of risk capital... the ease or difficulty experienced by new ventures in obtaining capital, and thereby the strength and potential for growth in the economy.
John F. Kennedy

Tom, don't worry, I still have a soft spot in my heart for you

I was joking about taking offense at your message.

I just started doing loans again. (Yesterday)Was out of it for a couple of months.

So Wendy and Laguna can have some competition. (And a few others)

Seems as if the GM has already started on this its at 29%

TOMMI, JOZI... SOMEONE STOP!!!

Before you lower the rates and make people mad can you tell us what you plan to do so we can spit ball ideas.

Whats your plan i looked it looks like 100T at 5% = 1.5 to 2B a month interest. Whats your plan for the World bank. Are we setting loan prices??? Before you lower it lets talk so there's not a massive GM outcry in a week.

Wow.
History graphs are quick to reveal even small changes.

We will publish today on the game news.

Our intention is to reduce interest rates from 30% and at the same time reduce the financial services.

both changes were tried yesterday night with a reduction of interest rates to 29% and a reduction of 4% in the financial services for countries.

we will gradually get rid of the financial services and bring interest rates down to reasonable levels.

Now before this changes to much

Define reasonable?

Again i agree interest ares are to high but dropping them to 5% means if i loan out 100T i make only 2B a month at that point its not even worth loaning cash out. We talking you lowering them to 15%. How about letting us set are own rates for loans at the same time. How about Econ levels if im only making 2B a month why the hell should i have cash n loans in excess of 100T needed to level if im getting no benifts?

if FF are removed, and rate are reduced, then their is no risk to 100T + loans, makes sense to me. been a change thats long over due. truely

Your doing it again, lol...Good econ is there to make you your income not loans. The fact that you can make a small profit off loans is good but it shouldnt be your main source

It amazes me how many so called econ players are having to rely on loans to make a buck.

Make your damn countries work

wow, blue, i agree. loans are cool, but with people running 3 *Q* loans, it doesn't allow little guys much wiggle room. i mean, really, the best option would be to make a max loans given. but that wont happen...

Me and Blue talked in the chat and i think it went well and we both understand where we was comming from and i enjoyed the chat that followed *stores info for later use*

We was talking its not so much that i myself am worried about loans being dropped to where i cant make large income of interest. My issue is how low will income go? As i told blue

Minimum you make
1B monthly income per 10T loaned
10B per 100T
In the case of people with 300T - 30B monthly

Lets say they drop it to 5% ( 1/6 of the current rate)

10T = 180M a month
100T = 1.8B a month
1Quadtrillion = 18B a month

Most of us have less then 100T so the loans make almost nothing.------I AGREE 100% WITH BLUESERPENT------. You shouldn't make a fortune off loans and let it be your primary income. That's what CEO/Econs are for.

But with welfare being a corporation factor and keeping index's high a little boost wouldn't hurt. I'm not saying lets leave it at 30% but maybe dropping it to 15% maybe 10% at the lowest.

I honestly really thing that letting us set prices is a great idea for CEO/Countries alike.
You take a loan at best price. Its harder to loan 300T @ 30% when everyone else is going 5-15%. Competition would form in the loan market and players have that feel good of controlling there loans a little more

It would be worthy to note that people who do loan a lot of loans have earned their way into doing so. If it is through economic gains that amassed the money to loan large sums or conquering or donating to the game I fail to see how loaning money should be so frowned upon solely on the basis of 'you loan too much'. Psshhh, give me a break. The fact that there is a market for people to loan even a single quadrillion means these people should be praised for providing something the game needs. The fact that they loan so much is a testament to their success, not a sore spot or weakness in their 'economic game'.

Why Josias would even suggest a cap is even more mind boggling. It is like Maestro suggesting changes to the war engine, that he never uses.

Again, with welfare driven by other indexes, it comes back to makin ur country work

Wendy, econ still is and always will be how profit is made in the game.

Loans isnt and shouldnt be the way to go.

Good econ was and should be the way forward. Loaning out massive amounts of cash, however obtained isnt the way to go

In rebuttal to Super's post. I don't care what rate it is. High Low, what needs to happen is it needs to be computed in game time, not real time. The money is borrowed in game time, but interest paid in real time. At what point does that make sense.

I also think that supply vs demand should be the mechanism determining the % of loan interest. As long as GM loans are in play there is clearly a shortage of loans, even while a few players loan massive amounts out. If there is a need for loans, why are we making moves to discourage people loaning out money? That doesn't make sense. If more people made a choice to loan out money, there wouldn't be such a market for players to loan out massive amounts. FF in and of itself has done more to discourage new loans because of the risk of FF if those loans come back and do not move.

Lower the rate, that isn't relevant, the time frame that interest is paid, is very relevant. You borrow in game time, you pay in game time.

Why not introduce bonds as an alternative instead of loans. Issue ratings for new bond issues based on Economic/Finance ratings and move away from loans and curb the big interest rates. The bonds can be paid in 5 10 20 25 50 100 year intervals and should have varying interest rates according to the bond maturity.

Just a thought, but the extreme of %30 and 1.5B down to 180M is too big of a leap for my liking. I can double my money every day in a few clicks I like making the loans because it looks good in my news bar.

Point taken Blue, but you are diverting the conversation from loans and making it more of an raw economic issue. At issue here is the fairness of extreme financial services and the unnecessary penalty for players who make loans that players in the game need.

I personally wouldn't want someone to come into the game and buy 10000 coins, then make cash and loan it all out. But people who have a bunch of loans isn't a bad thing either. A distinction needs to be made.

The direction that this conversation takes is using the same rationale we used to Bomb Iraq. 'We can't wait for a mushroom cloud to act.' Similar, 'If we let people make loans, they won't make an effort to run a decent econ', therefore let's bomb the loan makers.

having players set interest rates is an invitation to cheat.
you just start a new account and give it loans for a very high interest rate.
one account is making money, the other is losing it and closes.
we had this in the past and had to stop it.

Supply and demand is also a problem because there is much more cash in the game than anyone needs.

Interest rates in game time means that it will have to be set at 0.05% per game year or lower.

That is hard to explain.

I totally agree with financial charges made. shouldnt be in the game now.

But....
you cant have no financial charges and still have high rates of interest for loans.

back to raw economics....its what makes your country tick...how u make ur buck that u want to loan out.

pirating countries like it used to happen, isnt there anymore.

So many new guys signing up and havent a clue where to start....i see so many so called good players that that need to try and force thro changes to help them...rubbish, its not needed

I agree with a few of your comments.
The World bank shouldn't offer loans in large sums. Hurts player loans and causes shortages

For Game time Vs Real time your talking 8.75B a month on a 1T cash loan at 120months so Paying Game time is not so much an opinion unless the pay back time is 360months or something.

Bonds i agree with it could be a opinion just like a loan. Its payment date is longer, gives higher interest income, and cannot be payed back early. Lets say so new players needs 5T instead of giving him a loan give him a bond. Bonds could be set to not effect the countries cash holdings *This could help stall the falling of the asset's ticker and the game auto blocking features" so instead of a noob being 8T loans and 2T negative cash and being auto blocked from fixing anything. A player could give them a bond 5T(max) and help them to recovery. This is why i like talking in these threads so many good ideas made in a short period of time

Tommi
What about blocking the amount of loans to a country from a player?

Let us set are own prices and send them to who we want but a single country cant have more then 2T from a single player and since you max loans at 8T. Cheating would be an option BUT it would be harder and even then they'd make less cash then they do now. If your really dropping prices 15% rate on 100T even if they where cheating is only 5B a month that's not a lot and someone is bound to notice

Without world bank loans what should players do? loan from you at the rate you chose to set? LMAO, gimme a break super

You know I am a vigorous opponent of change Blue.

I didn't mean setup any random Number Tom. Whatever number you all think is plausible or acceptable, then have it vari up or down by 15% to promote competition to naturally drive down interest rates, As loans are in shortage they would gradually increase up to the top of the range until the market offers more loans. More of a free market.

Blue I see the same. The constant jelly rolling of the game coupled with the ever changing aspect(not evolving) is doing the game more harm than good.

I also never set the price of loan interest. The game did. If they didn't like that I would have liked to see them lower the rate as they are doing now, not siphon cash off the top because I didn't get loans out in time.

Economics, is hard to grasp in this game because everything works outside the laws of what everyone perceives free market economics to be. It may be following some basic economic model, but diverting from practical economic principles. That would take time to explain, so I won't, I'm sure most of the experienced players get what I am trying to say here. The divergence from basic economics needs to be explained so that people coming in don't get the idea that free market economics is in play. It is in some instances and will be overridden in other instances.

The wording used in the docs that implies 'best price'(which makes the most economic sense, practically speaking, does not mean that you will get best price in reality. Examples like this is why economics in this game is so hard to master in this game, especially when so many people come in interested in making an empire to go to war. The thrill of conquest needs to be balanced with the economic aspect. They are both important but now we are leaning on economics as it is very hard to war.

We keep getting into hypotheticals that should be taken care of or addressed outside of the subject loans instead of using them as a line of reasoning in order to deal with something you think is wrong with the seemingly huge profit potential of making massive loans.

The simplest way to accomplish this would have been to lower the interest rate, a long time ago. It seems there are more created problems by going about solving a simple problem in a overly complex way.

Reducing the rate charged seems to be whats happening, all be it a lil overdue, lol.

Wendy you make an excellent point on new players coming into sc. E1 wants to war...no thought to how they gonna pay for it.


Blue muffles again into his coffee about econ bein the way to go