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Forum General W3C - The Simcountry War Game (White Giant)

W3C - The Simcountry War Game (White Giant)

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Jabberwock (Fearless Blue)
11 Jul 2009 16:59 Link
I don't think the problem is with FB, i think there is a lot of talk about FB because if there are changes to the war game the players want to see FB the least restricted of all the worlds in terms of war. i could be wrong though.
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Yankee (Fearless Blue)
11 Jul 2009 17:10 Link
One or two new players stumbled into FB and got wiped out. Yah well live and learn.

Most of the trouble stems from people finding they have spend hundreds of dollars and lost everything.

Most times this would have been prevented had they simply not signed the war treaty.

For what ever reason people gamble and lose then start demanding compensation. It's the same in every multiplayer game where you paid to play that I've ever seen.

Sim Country is not cheap to play and with boosters, cash market etc. it's no different than putting an ATM machine inside a casino.

Someone is always going to bet more and lose more than they can afford. IMHO they simply should roll back to an earlier time, charge 36 bucks to play for one year and forget the rest of this crap.
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Brian K (White Giant)
11 Jul 2009 17:13 Link
Ha ok now I understand it. Some fools spend a ton of money then get wiped out. Now the even bigger fools in charge want to fix it so the other fools who pay that ton of money can keep doing so and be happy.
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Yankee
11 Jul 2009 18:35 Link
That is pretty much the long and short of it.

At one time you didn't need to sell GC's to get money, or population you could gain it by raiding.

For many years the game was free in all but GR where you paid 36 bucks and played for a year. Then they cut the raiding for population, cut the money and came up with the convoluted GC system.

The problem was nobody wanted to pay money to play this game, I'm sorry but you always pay for your entertainment. As long as the cost is reasonable people continue to do it.

SC is now so expensive to get started I wouldn't waste my time. But what we have are people that hit the door, spend money like they never had to pay the bill (some probably don't), then when they get the statement, or mom and dad say's WTF!!! or they get wiped out and realize what it's costing them they get nasty.

Which is why I say roll back and simply charge, let players raid countries for pop (you can sill make cash you just have to work at it), charge 36 bucks to everyone and let them play for a year. If they lose it .. big deal .. start over.

Rebuilding an empire, better and faster once you've learned the score was always the most interesting part anyway.

I've been arguing for almost 8 years to leave the game alone and simply charge for it. As you can tell from what we have today my ideas were "improved" on.
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Brian K (White Giant)
11 Jul 2009 18:41 Link
I would state my true feeling and opinions of things, but I would probably get banned again. However I think you can tell by my last message how I feel about the people who run the game and see that we pretty well agree on things. Veterans like me and you will be a thing of the past in the next year or so if they keep doing things like this that cater who the dumb noobs who pour in cash.
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Yankee (Fearless Blue)
11 Jul 2009 18:52 Link
Well once the people that knew what the game was, and could have been are gone, alot of discussions become a moot point.

I've given away countries, empires and almost made it out the door when I gave away my entire account. I made the mistake of stopping in FB or I'd be gone already.
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Daconia
11 Jul 2009 20:10 Link
Just a suggestion. Instead of having the worlds be war or econ...make the players...a player choosing econ..can not attack another player..or be attacked by another player. If you choose the war option...you war against others who wish to play that way...To me that makes more sense than dividing the worlds up.
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Leen Dierts (White Giant)
11 Jul 2009 20:33 Link
Yankee you are right! Keep up expressing (y)our opinion, since most of "us" oldtime players are numb of left...

I have known the old "free playing", and all phases that let to what we now have. I think we only need a few minor changes, and let things as the are now.

What do we have now?
1) You don't need to spend more then $ 4,-/month.
2) You can play/build "save" (secured main) and have no risk of losing your "precious" country (what is wrong with losing, anyway? It used to be the best way to learn...)
3) If you want to "buy" a powerhouse, mighty army et cetera, realise that it might look impressive, but you might become a pitty loser when you face some-one who build his empire/army the hard way (by investing time instead of gold coins..)

Minor points, that need to be improved, imo:
4)we have a credit-card competion. Those who spend (extra) goldcoins get higher in rank (is that fair?)(remember Silver's words...)
5)there is no incentive (motivation) to be/stay active. Just set everything on automation and it runs for months without any problem. And you don't need to fear anyone will raid you...

How to solve (improve) these last points? I think less war-protection will be better. No protection when you grow beyond a certain size, or when you are inactive, or when you spend extra boosters. Predation on fat inactives (like me), keeping the community lean and mean, survival of the fittest. That will make this game more interesting.

My 2 cents.
Patience and respect
Leen
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Alarich (Little Upsilon)
11 Jul 2009 21:05 Link
daconia has a point.
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REALFRIEL (Fearless Blue)
12 Jul 2009 02:53 Link
well i got to say im one of the guys that came 4 months ago and spent like 100$ so far. i set myself up pretty good and could walk away knowing i enjoyed myself. if i wake up tommorow and its gone i wont play agian cause i see whats coming and its not what is here now. the game , with the exceptions of the times u cant build units is fun , risky, and getting better. if u told me i had no possibility of loseing then id save some money and find a free chess site.
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Yankee
12 Jul 2009 07:44 Link
Daconia's point use to be called "peaceful mode".

Problem with that is you couldn't switch out of it and many people found it too boring after awhile.

SC isn't going to let anyone build a 10+ country empire that nobody can attack, it's simply too costly for them.
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Aaron Doolavay (White Giant)
12 Jul 2009 08:48 Link
When we had peaceful mode it was easy enough to buy a peaceful country so your empire was part peaceful and part not, or start in peaceful and buy a war country. I had that at one point. Of course peaceful came with raised govt. costs so it was bit different than secured mode.
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Tom Willard (White Giant)
12 Jul 2009 13:54 Link
Just to clarify several points:

1. We have not decided on any changes at all.

2. We have no plans to change anything on FB.
The only things we might improve are the messages players get when they want to start on FB, warning them of the possibility that they will be wiped out for no reason.

We can advise them more clearly to stay out of FB is they do not want to play this kind of game.

3. The idea of 3 countries in secured mode, shifting the choice of three to the weakest ones is not entirely clear.

Most players now have their main country in secured mode. We assume that they want to keep it in secured mode.

Adding the two weakest countries to a secured group, with secured mode shifting automatically depending on their rank will reduce transparency and people might be surprised to discover changes they don't want.

They will have to watch out what they do to prevent shifts they do not want and will end up implicitly enforcing their own choice, but without the possibility to explicitly set that choice.

So when you have a new country and it is weak and placed in secured mode, and you want a different country to be in secured mode, you can start shifting resources as quickly as you can to make it stronger, increase its rank and return to the previous set of secured countries.

Do we really want this?

4. I see some comments by very long time players who are complaining about repeated changes and lack of reasons to come back and play and no challenges.

We are extremely proud they are here. I don't know of many games people play for 5 to 8 years.

But Simcountry is not what it was 5 to 8 years ago. It is a different game.

It also has many more players who are also participating in the cost of keeping it running. This was not the case 5 to 8 years ago.

We are proud of the fact that Simcounry is a game people play very long.

We also realize that you cannot be a game that is easier to learn than it used to be, has many more features than before, tries to allow new players to develop quickly and not remain behind for a real year before they can reach a high position, prevent the destruction of new players, prevent the total domination by huge empire, keep the balance on hundreds of issues and at the same time appeal to everyone.

This will not happen.

We see some old players go and we also see some of them come back. We also listen to them and believe me, Yankee mails us from time to time and we never put his messages aside. We like the constructive criticism as the only way to improve.

He is not the only long term player who mails us advise from time to time.



We think that on all other worlds (excluding FB), war should remain part of the game.

On the other hand, we want to make it harder to wipe someone out in no time even if attacked by a gang of ten strong players. Or specially in that case.

The solution should not be too protective or the war game will become obsolete. It has to be somewhere in between.

We would like in fact to remove many limitations in the war game and also allow players who are not interested in the economy to play the war game only. We currently plan the details and will announce ahead of time.

There are some good ideas here and we will wait for more.

We will be back with suggestions before any decision is made.

This problem is serious and must be solved.

We are on the eve of a large increase in the number of players. It has already increased in the past months and will move up much faster. The number of available countries will decline.

We expect in fact that building an empire and holding it may become a little harder. As availability of countries will decline, the way war is conducted will become even more important.
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Ares (Fearless Blue)
12 Jul 2009 18:58 Link
Thank you for the clarification Tom. I like knowing what is going on.
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Jo Salkilld (White Giant)
12 Jul 2009 21:47 Link
/me applauds Yankee

Spot on Yankee. I hope the GMs listen.

Hugs and respect

Jo
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Yankee (Fearless Blue)
12 Jul 2009 22:07 Link
They do listen Jo, it's a matter of whether or not I can convince them.

However, like a politician they try to keep everyone happy and many times make so many "deals" what is done most times many times is no longer effective.

Even I'm not sure what they really want, I know they want to make money (who doesn't). Thing is do they want it all at once, and risk the game, or do they want it long term at the cost of rapid (realitively) development.
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Tom Willard
12 Jul 2009 22:41 Link
This was not constructive. Even worse, it did not help anyone.

We had a discussion about possible changes in the war game.

It does not need to be. there are many ideas by now and there is enough time before it is implemented.
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Yankee
12 Jul 2009 22:57 Link
Sure it was Tom, Jo statement indicated the GM's do not listen.

I simply told her you DO listen. Alot of people actually believe you do not care.

I know different, what I do also realize is you listen to everyone at once and many times attempt to compromise between suggestions.

Most times those compromises end up being nothing like what what originally intended in the first place.

Even this last post of your's indicates W3C has already decided what it intends to do. The rest of us will as usual simply wait to see what they are.
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Yankee
12 Jul 2009 22:59 Link
And if you are referring to my post prior to Jo's, it definetly needed saying as the problems are all interconnected.
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Tom Willard
12 Jul 2009 23:03 Link
There is no decision on what to do.
some of the people here are on vacation and we will wait for them anyway to participate in this discussion.

I hoped to get something out of a discussion here.
I am not sure it will happen.
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Yankee
12 Jul 2009 23:07 Link
LMAO and so you delete the post which actually gets to the heart of the enitre situation.

Way to go Tom, I can see just how "intereted" W3C really is in what we as players deem as problems :)

Anyway I tried, do what you will
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Jo Salkilld (White Giant)
12 Jul 2009 23:08 Link
I'm sorry for any confusion, but I wasn't suggesting that the GMs don't listen. That's not what I said.

I have emailed the GMs in the past about problems and they have always listened and put in the work to fix them. If anything, I have found them to be far more reasonable and supportive than some others on this forum suggest.

I merely stated that I hope they listen this time, as I have never tried to alert them to anything by posting on this forum, and I therefore have no idea whether it is the best medium in which to get the GM's ear ...

My support was for Yankee's suggestions to bring back C3 raiding ... the best incentive to learn the war engine, the best way to build up your country's defences and the best diversion for those who enjoy warring - far better than picking on noobs or raiding inactives. And also for getting rid of the cashout feature / GC market. However, that post seems to have been deleted ... :(

Hugs and respect

Jo
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Dubhthaigh (White Giant)
13 Jul 2009 15:10 Link
Hello there, I will try to take an impartial look at the proposed changes, their implications, and if anything can be done to achieve similar results, but in a less intrusive/drastic way.

"Three countries in Secured Mode."

Implications:

* It will be possible for more players to become involved in the war game, as large warslaves do not have to be supported with billions of population or propped up by the cash market. +

* Big federations will play a much larger and more effective role in the game - military power is no longer reliant on the individual's ability to pay (GC) for upkeep costs - you will have 100 secured economic slaves powering a virtually untouchable strike force. This will be taken to the extreme with the planned implementation of federation contolled armies. + / -

* You nullify the point of honest war in SC - to punish or remove undesirables from the game. Wars only use will be to gain wealth through raiding unsecured countries. -

Conclusion: I feel this change would be a bad one. You will be leaving the door open for a breakdown in the SC community. The game is online and thus has no laws other than those in the license agreement - it takes players to enforce some kind of moral and behavioural standard. If you take away the ability to do so, the dirt stays on the clothes, and noone wants to wear them.

Solution: Give new players 60 days of free war protection per country, and remove the 30 day limit. WP should be placed on automatically, until they turn it off. Make war protection cheaper.


"A War Ending booster."

Implications:

* You nullify the point of war, and make it very hard for players to weed out those who are making the game unpleasant for everyone else. -

* You open up the option for raiding players to 'farm' GC, by declaring on rich weak players who will use the booster. Who needs to strip or take a country when the GC is paid directly to you for it? + / -

Conclusion: I feel this change has both positive and negative implications - new players get an option to keep their countries for a price, and old players get an additional source of income. I can't see W3C liking the ensuing raiding though, and it will again deteriorate into a bitching fest.

Solution: Make war protection cheaper.


"Limit the number of countries that can be attacked simultaneously."

Implications:

* The player will still lose that/those country/ies - they will be outnumbered and stand even less of a chance, and you have solved nothing. Once the country/ies have fallen, the attacker will move onto the next lot, until the empire is gone. -

* You cannot declare on a whole empire unawares, and leave all the countries open for attack. This is good for new players as they cannot lose all their countries at once. +
* The element of surprise will no longer be a factor. War becomes more boring. -

Conclusion All you are doing is adding more limits and restrictions. People play SC to do things online
that they cannot do in real life, they want to be unrestricted. You are making the game less appealing, as with all these baby-coddling changes.

Solution: Make war protection cheaper. (notice a theme going here?)



Overall: I believe you (W3C) are suffering from a lack of trust in the player base. You are adding changes that try to take the power away from some, and give it to all. Unfortunately, all that will do is open the way for anarchy and lead the game towards an unattractive community and subsequent death.

Solution: Trust us more - sometimes things do happen unfairly, yes, innocent players do lose their countries, but
on the whole Very rarely. If you look at the history of all worlds, if someone begins to act unfairly or disfunctionally towards others (especially towards small ones), they are removed, not by the admins, but by other big players.

If you are that worried about new players being attacked, give them free WP for a period of time, and make WP cheaper overall. By adding restrictions, all you are doing is crossing off reasons people have to play.
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The Goldern Khan (Fearless Blue)
13 Jul 2009 17:52 Link
Well said Dub. Making war protection cheaper solves alot of trouble easily.
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Jojo the Hun (Fearless Blue)
13 Jul 2009 19:40 Link
Lots of great posts. My two cents:

War booster: nay, lousy idea in so many ways.

Yankee's "weakest 3 countries secured": sounds like the most well-thought out game change proposal I've seen in my two years here. Could benefit players on the full range of levels of play.

Making war protection cheaper: I hate seeing huge militaristic empires on the "war" world constantly in WP for months on end. Basic principle of the war game seems to me that the stuff you use to wage or potentially wage war should be accessible for others to attack. Big countries in wp supporting little c3s in action violates that. Big empires in wp that come out only at opportune times, to take other countries then go back into wp, also violates that. Cheaper wp by itself will just encourage more of this.

More WP credit for noobs: sure

Limit number of countries that can be attacked simultaneously: Dub said it well, not a helpful idea.

Greater distinction between worlds: Sure, though I think a basic appeal of this game is the interplay between war and economy. Personally I see FB as just about right in its balance. It is very possible to have a strong empire running in the black financially there, and still be involved in wars. I'd like to see a war playground world where economies are irrelevant. More to the point, I don't want FB to become such a world.

Blackouts: working fine, and could well be increased to 6 or 8 hours.

Overall tenor: As Dub said, W3C has to trust the players. A bunch of jerks won't make a good game, no matter what rules and policies are put in place.

W3C making money: I've paid more to Kinko's to play this game (a couple of hours of online access while on vacation) than I've paid to W3C in the past year. Wouldn't mind spending more for the game.