Socialism and Urbanization (Little Upsilon)

I have often thought that there is a relationship between socialism and urbanization. It seems to me that the need for government grows exponentially as population density increases.

What do you all think?

I think lemon cheesecake could always be improved by adding more lemon.

Yummy

I agree.

Yes defenitly more lemon.

I agree, it also removes the self sufficiency found in a society with a higher percentage of population working in agriculture. Control.

Also Latias, our sim scientists have discovered that the lemon is made better by adding the cheesecake.

As a matter of fact, our sim scientists have discovered that adding cheesecake to anything makes it better. We are currently running tests to see how much better cheesecake makes nuclear weapons. We are expecting an increased yield in these weapons of several fold over the key lime pie.

Alas the lemon/cheesecake ratio eventually falters when you grow to the Walitzki-Dayton threshold (size over gooeyness)and have discovered when you reach the lemon cheesecake macro-scale we eventually have to incorporate sim forks and sim napkins clogging up the room for further lemon.

Placing the lemon nuclear missiles on plates may help alleviate this issue

@ Solomon

When comparing urban to rural regions, the urban areas seems to have a greater need for a wider range of gevernment services, including policing, housing, remedial schools, juvenile facilities, etc. Why would this be true?

Middle class flight from urban areas to the suburbs is a dominant feature of many US metro areas. Is the difference between urban and suburban/rural areas merely a function of class?

@ the rest of you

I am disappointed that the need for chocolate and fruit in a cheesecake never got a mention. Chocolate/Blueberry is simply thhe best combination. And none of those nasty store bought refrigerated indistrial cheesecakes. I want mine homebaked to luscious, creamy perfection.

Plato

This case does not suit your assumption:

The region with the lowest population density in Portugal, Alentejo, is largely communist. It is, as a mater of fact, the communist stronghold in Portugal. It is mainly an agricultural region, with a high percentage of people over 65.

Alentejo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alentejo


I agree with the "the denser the population, the greater the "need" for Government". Mostly because Government is Society's Manager and has population grows, systems tend either to become more complex or simply larger, depending of their stage in development.

Plato,

No, it's racially motivated. The exodus began just after the riots in 1967. AKA 'the great white flight'.

Detroit for example was like any college town in America before the riots, people walking the streets shopping, etc. To this day Detroit has never recovered and probably never will. especially with (you guessed it) the evil ruling class pumping heavy drugs into the inner cities for the love of money, and YES the government is behind the epidemic. That's what the 'war on drugs' is all about. The same creeps taking control of the drug industry (at least)nation wide.
*(evidence supplied upon request)

Some of the seeming need for increased services is an illusion. With more people per square mile naturally you would need more services. If the urban has 5 times the population then a 500% increase in services does not equal more. As for a wider range of services needed, I do not believe this is true either, only that people will travel to urban areas for those services because with the lower density those services are less profitable in those kinds of areas so they aren't placed there.

Rural probably has the greater need use per person. In rural eastern Kentucky there are dozens of counties, each with it's own school system, each with it's own fire service, police etc. Because of the way the counties are drawn and the very low population density they are using far more services, person for person, than people living in Louisville Kentucky. It's like this: the city has 25 schools, The rural countryside has 25 school systems.

Yes Solomon I would be interested in seeing such "evidence" because I strongly suspect its total crap.

Also, would the example you have used be typical for country areas. Is an interesting example though, suggests people in rural areas are more self reliant

Your Honor, I call my first witness, Michael Ruppert.

Mr Ruppert you may step down, but don't leave you may be recalled... I now call Maxine Waters to testify.

The Kentucky model I gave is typical for a state with smaller counties, about three to one when compared to Michigan. At let's say under 6 million people. A state like California would probably stand as it's own model. You can imagine how the dynamics might change with the average size of the counties, geography etc.

i find the arguments on both sides of this issue compelling. my inclination is to say that the more complex a society the more need for government control. community becomes a primary factor in determining how much control is exerted by gov't/society. my hunch is that the stronger a community network is, the less necessary for societal control. if i know my neighbor and have common values and goals, it would seem that gov't intervention would be less necessary. on the other hand, there are many countries that are quite urban, democratic and socialistic that seem to work relatively well. we are realizing that possibly the best form of gov't combines, democratic principles, capitalism and a strong social safety net. i'm intrigued by Laguna's example of a rural elderly communistic region in Portugal. communism as well as severe examples of socialism seem to stiffle creativity and free markets, which can either be a stimulus or create their own set of problems.

Any chance of linking us to the sources of information that this guy references, Solomon?

I'm sorry, but the rational, logical little voice in my head - cantankerous, pedantic little cow that she is - has never really been all that good at creating an informed opinion upon questionable sources.

At best, this is a secondary source which alludes to a primary without actually stating it directly. At worst, is could well be propaganda. And I'm curious to find out which.

Another factor that might have a bearing on the issue is age demographics. Laguna's example of a region in Portugal that was Communistic, with older citizens may parellel to some extent the current debate in the US on healthcare. Some of the most vocal critics of the bills being considered are older people on medicare and social security. They often claim that they don't want socialized medicine but they don't want their social security or medicare cut. They either want things to stay the same or have more benefits. Younger people tend to be more concerned with freedom of action and less gov't intervention into their lives. In most of the western countries we see that socialism tends to inhibit personal capital creation as opposed to the desire for gov't to provide a more stable environment even at the cost to personal freedom. China on the other hand seems to be moving into capitalism through gov't planning and increased planned market freedom. Their is great pent up demand for stuff and for freedom and this is one way they will achieve this in the short run. Long term as their pop ages they will be challenged by the same issues other developed aging economies face.

Oh, I'm not a big cheesecake fan. Lemon gelato for me.

Well I listened to the two witnesses & am not really impressed - anybody can say anything. Those two witnesses seemed to be either media whores or had another agenda.
Am just not a big fan of consipiracy theories - except maybe Rodolph Hess & UK & Russia & Nazi Germany - true story did not come out there.

What Laguna said about growing complexity requiring more Govt intervention made sense thou.

A socialist Government CAN operate effectively, just as a capitalist Govt can operate ineffectively.

Yeah thats all well and goood... but what happened to the lemons?

Kali, it's obvious NO evidence would have been good enough for you, why'd you ask?

Latias, at what point does it become our responsibility to educate ourselves?

Tuasman, the lemon is sitting in my driveway.

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Latias, at what point does it become our responsibility to educate ourselves?<!-/Quote-!>

When we wish to learn, of course; which is precisely why I'm asking you to provide primary source information. I wish to educate myself further on the matter from a reputable source of information.

As a participant in a discussion it is your responsibility to back up your own opinion with factual sources - I assume some must exist, if the video is even an rough approxomation of the truth.

Whilst the video is indeed interesting and raises several questions, the factual nature is questionable without any primary source information with which to reference.

Some people are never happy.
I find that when a subject interests me and someone brings up a point, I go looking for the evidence myself. Just cross reference the point from all info found and the truth will be out there.
But it's very rare a thought can be proved without any shadow of a doubt. For until the thought becomes no longer a thought but reality can a thought be proved to be the truth.

Latias, you have all the same information at your finger tips as I do mine, now...

Why exactly should I be doing your searches for you?

I can tell you Michael Ruppert was poisoned and fled to Canada and then Venezuela, I'm not sure if he's back in the U.S. or not.

Obviously you are interested, search it out to learn more. I haven't dwelt on Mike Ruppert, there's a lot out there. If I do any research it will be on the extreme poverty in Venezuela that I saw for the first time just before I posted THAT video here. If I do research it, it will be for my own benefit, not to try to convince someone who may not be willing to be convinced in the first place.

Speaking of research... I just found out Aaron Russo is dead, I'm bummed

I did find this, and I'm watching it for the first time, I'm most of the way through the first part and I think the whole thing will be worth seeing.

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Why exactly should I be doing your searches for you?<!-/Quote-!>

Simply because it is data which supports your argument. It is not my duty to prove your point for you; it is your job to back up your own argument. I've simply asked you to extrapolate upon your points with original data rather than a secondary source. When I have my own point to make, I will do the same.

If you are incapable of sourcing the original data, that is fine. Just say so.

The information I've provided already has an abundance of links that are evident upon first examination.

If you don't find this satisfactory then I doubt anything you might be offered would meet your demands for support in regards to my argument.