Gun law

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Every human has the right to life. Do you have the right to take away that right?

Please dont use the excuse that a perp has lost his rights when he is certainly going to take away yours. That doesn't wash, reminds me of a bad cliche - two wrongs dont make a right.<!-/Quote-!>

That type of thinking is exactly what is wrong with the world in general.

Whether you wish to face it or not there are people in this world that are willing to take whatever it is you have your property, your health, or your life.

If you think for an instant that one human should let another beat them senseless or take their life simply because it's wrong to fight back. I have no idea what type of society you grew up in but it wasn't on this particular planet.

No if you think YOUR particular life is not important, then by all means let someone do what they will.

What kind of man could let his wife, daughter or for that matter a complete stranger be raped or murdered?

What kind of mother would allow that to her child?

Where did you ever come across the idea that taking a life at an all situations was "wrong"?

Religion?

I was raised Protestant (Southern Baptist to be exact) and just how do you derive that from the Bible?

How many times did God either kill, or command others to kill in the Old Testament? If it is always immoral to kill another human being then God himself must be immoral.

Since those of us in the Christian Faith do not believe God is immoral, then there must be circumstances during which is is not immoral to kill another human being.

So then you have to decide under what circumstances is it moral to kill another human being?

If there are any circumstances at all it would have to be while protecting yourself or the people around you.

While a Christian may voluntarily decide to lay down his life for the sake of another, God has given you a body and He intends you to take care of it (1 Cor. 3:16-17).

Because God has given you your own body to protect, it is not a sin, but a virtue, to protect it.

The religion card simply will not work so I have to wonder, just where did you come up with the idea that defending yourself or others was wrong?

WOW I am sitting here banging my head on my desk with all this liberal bullshit its liberals like that that give liberals like myself a bad name (I consider my self libertarian which I think.is a fancy way of saying I hates all the politicians from the idiotic backwards backwater neocons to the wine sipping illogical liberals)

I am glad there are still people like Yankee and I would find it impossible in your situation to logically respond to his statements

when I person intends to infringe on the rights of others then he loses his

I hate it when right-wing conservatives who are glued to Faux News use the word "liberal" as if its a dirty word. You folks love to call people names rather than actually debate things like policy. Grow up.

Fact: guns are bad. People will use them to do bad things. Solution: take them away, and leave only the police, military and those who have a specific reason (e.g. farmers who need it for vermin) and crime rates reduce significantly.

Guns infringe on the rights of other people to feel secure, safe and well protected in public. Come here to Australia and you'll see how safe it is with guns off the street.

@Alexandrov, you call yourself a liberal, yet you call what a majority of "liberals" preach "bullshit". No wonder America is backward politically.

screw you morgan dont take my words out of context just go back and make us americans some ugs dammit

try getting out of your on little world and look around your government spent half a billion dollars on implementing gun control but statistics show violent crime went up crime rates in america are higher then europe and australia because of our society not less gun control

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Come here to Australia and you'll see how safe it is with guns off the street.<!-/Quote-!>

Now you really are trolling.

What it's only taken until 2011 to drop your murder rate from 1996 by the same percentage as in the US with no gun ban. And of course the number of other crimes has increased.

Seems a woman is 3 times more likely to be raped in Australia than in the U.S.

But I suppose all you Aussies think a woman that would kill to prevent rape is "selfish".

http://www.aic.gov.au/en/publications/current%20series/rpp/100-120/rpp116.aspx

Just cut and paste that in your browser to see how it's working for Australia.

FACT: It's not.

Yankee, your post there about Christian values is completely nonsensical.

I'm not a believer in any etheral power but I do believe the Bible to be a code of morals and a good construct of the way to behave to others.

You realise "turn the other cheek" comes from the Bible? Didn't Gods own son sacrifice his life to save the human race? And God allowed this. So sorry sir, but you sound more and more like some sort of fanatic or extremist. If I were psychoanalysing you for gun permits then you would be on the high risk register.

Please accept the fact that the world is growing up, we are becoming more civilised, and just as Bones in Star Trek was scripted to say about smoking...'why would anyone inhale this poison into their lungs, crazy' then also the future will say, just how did they let people run around with weapons of death?

It seems to me that the thinking of 'I need a gun to protect me and mine' is just propogating the violence. They WILL be phased out eventually, accept it, embrace it, and help it.

The old testament is a load of rubbish. I can't believe any intelligent person would take it seriously LOL.

I am God

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You realise "turn the other cheek" comes from the Bible?<!-/Quote-!>

Do you really want to get into that discussion crafty?

That's not the only verse quoted by pacifists however, none of them referred to life threatening situations.

A "slap on the cheek" is an insult not worth taking a life for.

And if you are Christian, Jesus sacrificed himself.

Had he not been able to protect himself ("with twelve legions of angels") then rather than a "plan" which was death, he would have simply been one more person killed by a mob.

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They WILL be phased out eventually, accept it, embrace it, and help it.<!-/Quote-!>

I happen to believe you are wrong. And you are using a circular argument much like "because I said so".

Gun control has done nothing for Great Britain either.

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The old testament is a load of rubbish. I can't believe any intelligent person would take it seriously LOL.<!-/Quote-!>

Whether you believe in it or not, religion is the basis for most National morals and thus law.

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I am God<!-/Quote-!>

If man really was created in God's own image, you could have a point.

Jesus is a Jew. Oh burn...

"Whether you believe in it or not, religion is the basis for most National morals and thus law."

And this is where it will get ugly. Many Christians keep thinking that because they are the majority in the Western world, they can dictate what the Government can do e.g. gay marriage. I'm opening a can of worms, but if the Church doesn't recognise gay marriage, that doesn't mean that the Government, which is supposedly secular, has to be ruthlessly lobbied by the Church into making sure gays can't marry. Marriage is two things: one is a religious ceremony, and one is a legal undertaking. They should remain seperate and independent, which is why I've got a long history of getting infuriated by Catholics (like my mother) who insist that the Church is always correct and has the right to oppose all things homosexual (except their priests), and therefore everyone else (atheists, muslims, and others) should follow their laws.

Another sticking point is the Middle East, and America's determination to impose Western Laws in places which honestly do not want them and will never accept them. It's an excellent example of a civilisation believing that because they are #1, everyone else should bow down to them and adopt their ideals, regardless of race, creed or belief. Watch Team America - it's probably the most spot-on observation of America's foreign policy and big-headed interventionist ideals, when one stips away the humour.


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Now, back to guns. Yankee, crime rates in Australia have been lower than the United States' for decades. America has the highest homicide rates per 100,000 in the developed world, and also has the most relaxed gun laws in the developed world. Coincidence? It also has the highest number of people in prison per 100,000 in the world (700 per 100,000 from memory). Comparing Australian crime rates to American crime rates is comparing apples and oranges, plus also ignores other factors such as poverty rates(America is worse), education quality (America is worse), wealth distribution and equality (American is worse, again), and healthcare (America is worse, thanks to its lack of (semi)Universal Healthcare).

As for your point on rape, Yankee, just remember that Australia has a large Aboriginal population, which live in terrible living conditions which have cycled down through generations, despite numerous attempts to lift their standard of living both internally and externally. Over 50% of reported rape cases in Australia came from this 5% portion of the population. It's an ongoing problem, which the Government is struggling to control thanks to drug smuggling and alcohol. Your points fail to recognise this.

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Marriage is two things: one is a religious ceremony, and one is a legal undertaking.<!-/Quote-!>

Wrong again, in the U.S. what is or is not, a marriage is a legal issue determined by the individual States.

Some recognize Gay marriages, some (probably most) don't. Mine doesn't, and that was decided by the population of my State.

If everyone's vote was influenced by their personal religious belief, so be it.

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America has the highest homicide rates per 100,000 in the developed world,<!-/Quote-!>

And what you choose to ignore is we would still have one of the highest rates even if all deaths inflicted by firearms was eliminated from the stats.

On the other hand Switzerland with the highest number of firearms for it population has one of, if not the lowest.

Another point is our homicide rate has dropped by the same percentage as Australia since 1996 and we still have our firearms.

There is nothing in even your own governments stats that suggest gun controls are having an effect on major crime.

Now you want to argue the Middle East, foreign or domestic policy start another thread.

Religion only became a factor in this particular thread when I asked Crafty where the idea that defending yourself or others was wrong came from.

As I pointed out the religion card does not play, and that doesn't matter if you are Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or Muslim.

And I still want to know where that odd concept came from, especially if it wasn't religion.

Um I've had a question that has been left unanswered for a long time. When did god write the bible? Because the first marriage was in 1250CE. When did god write the bible? Because animals have been killing animals for like over 4 billion years. When did god write the bible? Because the letters needed to write the bible weren't around till the greek alphabet which didn't originate until 800BCE. Someone else must of wrote the bible, but who? Could someone else be tasked with writing a document that billions will follow like sheep without questioning the legimitacy of it? Hmmm... Well I guess no one would dare manipulate that many people and make them do just about anything you they want.

Guns eh... I think I'll get into this one, as it is distracting so many of you. Guns shoot bullets, bullets kill people, dead people can't accomplish anything, a society that accomplishes nothing is good for no one. If guns weren't around they can no longer shoot people, and guess what everything is better. And the truth is most Americans don't give a damn about the constitution they care about the outcome. Repeal the second amendment, sure there will be riots but temporary, when that's done everyone will be happy! Yippie!

Now to get serious guns kill people, don't blame it on people, without the assistance of guns violent crimes would be too risky as they would take much longer. Historically countries with stricter gun control have lower levels of violent crime, check your facts, if anything look at Chicago, then compare it to london or sydney. Freedom of speech is so overrated if you don't know know what you are talking about then shut up. Simple. As for the argument of stimulation, entertainment is void from real life, and we are the way we are because we are conditioned to be this way. If America would fix the education and decrease the military budget society would be more inclined to adopt healthier interests-Fact. How many Dr's have gun collections, compared to illiterate rednecks? But education can't be fixed as long as detrimental occupations are the only one's rewarded by society.

If the argument becomes cops need guns then this whole mess is going to get crazy, as the people with the largest superiority complexes in the world are cops, and shouldn't be given that authority. Not sure of that solution but... It takes a special kind of person to choose a career lifestyle of pulling people over to impose fines, or ruin peoples lives over a little bit of dope. I don't feel cops actually takes risks, if a situation is too dangerous they let people go. Why empower the creeps? If anyone wants to refute that claim, don't bother I'm just gonna say I don't believe you and that's all. So where exactly do guns fit in society? Nowhere is where, simply to perpetuate the myth that citizens need protection, when they only really need protection from themselves.

Oh yeah and libertarians are stupid.

If I offended anyone good, that was the intent

Heh, I can just envision a few hundred cinema goers standing up at once and unleashing a torrent of pistol and semi-automatic fire on one guy because they all have the right to defend themselves.

Like all parables in the bible, the turning the other cheek thing is an illustration of the moral being preached. I know you dont think it literally means when someone slaps your face.

Look, I dont think it is wrong to defend yourself or your family, of course not, its human nature, not even limited to human actually... I just think the gung-ho attitude of 'I's a goona whoop some redneck ass comes sniffing round my patch, put a 457 right in his ass...' is not healthy in our crowded societies. I can well imagine it in the pioneer days, or the few remote outbacks of the world, but not in cities, in civilisation. Like I say, it will, nay, it has to, change. And before I get shouted down, by no means do I mean the overnight banning of handguns.

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If I offended anyone good, that was the intent<!-/Quote-!>

Such wonderful objectives.

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Guns shoot bullets, bullets kill people, dead people can't accomplish anything, a society that accomplishes nothing is good for no one.<!-/Quote-!>

What a simplistic argument.

Okay, bricks are hard, people throw bricks and kill people, Ban bricks.

No wait, beer bottles can either be hard or sharp, and people beat or stab each other with beer bottles, ban beer bottles.

Baseball bats kill people, don't blame it on the people blame it on baseball bat.

The list goes on.

None of those items are as Crafty says, "healthy in our crowded societies".

Hell I may as well argue on your level.

Hey, look over there, it happened again!

Makes this little "think tank" here seem pretty insignificant doesn't it?

Yankee your rebuttal is off. I tried to find the annual deaths by baseball bats but couldn't find it unfornuately. Probably because its most likely in the double digits or less I'd entertain the possibly of 3 digits by definately isn't comparable to the 5 digit numbers of guns.

But there is an easier way to look at this, what is the primary function of an object? A rifle is to hunt, a handgun is to kill people, an oozie is to kill a lot of people. A baseball bat is to hit a baseball. When a baseball bats primary function becomes to kill people we should get rid of baseball bats. When people aren't commonly killed by a hunting gun, and a hunter rarely uses a handgun for hunting why would you sell a handgun at all?

It is easy as that the teneology of things, the telos (purpose) of a handgun is to kill peeople, or to threaten. So it is a very simplistic argument. And true, occums razor the simplest solution is most likely true

Lol, I dont suppose there are many cases of 'murder by brick'. In fact glass containers ARE prohibited in most large gatherings, even in known troublesome pubs here in the UK. You have to suffer plastic. Beer in a plastic glass - uggg - a pet hate of mine. And baseball bats? They may well be used as a weapon of violence but I would doubt many would chose them as an instrument of murder. A bloke going bezerk in a movie theatre might well hurt some people, but kill a dozen? nah. Unless he's a ninja batter huh, like the theoretical knifeman who could murder several before you could react.

Many many items are now classed as 'weapons' if you are carrying them without good cause (eg for your job). So I say my level is the right one to argue on. Its real, not some cops and robbers superhero world.

Same in Australia. No glass allowed at large gatherings. Another Yankee rebuttal out the window.

I think I'm gonna hijack this thread and rename it to: WHO ALL THINKS DREW NEEDS A HAIR CUT - HAIR CONTROL.

If you look back at all the psycho gun killers, they all have weird hair. I'm concerned about Drew's HAIR here and "da look" he puts forth in his pic. I'm a lil concerned about that middle finger in Tom's pic too, but I'll refrain from discussing this at this current time.

Please place your comments here - YES for Drew to cut his hair, No to leave it as is.

Thank you.

Yours,
Lorelei

PS. To steal Drew's quote:

If I offended [insert Drew's name here]good , that was the intent HA HA HA HA HA HA not really

Crafty,

When Blueserpent took me to a pub over there over Christmas, I firmly recall my drink being in a glass container. I think. :S Oh I miss the Cheeky Vimtoes or however you spell them and my crumpets for breakfast. :-(

All seems like a blur now. So, how is London with all the people from the Olympics there?

Interesting....... I was spiderman until I posted da weird hair thinggy and look at da avatar I have NOW.....OOMGGGGGG!!! Now who's da weirdo! ha ha ha ha

LORELEI, GET A DAYAM HAIRCUT!!! lol

AND Crafty........ my my what FINE MUSCLES you have! hubba hubba!!! lol Now I can't tease you about your pinkness and discolored leg any more. Poo!

sorry I haven't been on I know you've all been missing me

id like to start off by saying reliigion is just an ancient backwards way to con troll people and only fools who cant think for themselves qoute the Bible (qouting the Bible is dumb because it contradicts itself) I figure if I spent the time to remember lots of common Bible versus I could argue with these people on their level (could be interesting)


and tom Morgan in your second to most recent post you brought up some good points about Catholicism spot on my mother is the same way (thinks democracy is evil and the pope should make all the decisions) and then preaches to children about relativism or something another word for democracy being evil and how Hitler was the great relatavist (albiet a dictator) (for those of you who don't know relativism is a theory of thought that says something is morally correct ifthe majority agrees) (apparently this is bad and we should let the pope make all our moral decisions) what a load of trash (cant believe this is allowed to be taught to already degenerate teenagers who believe in anything that's cool and who are in fact the great relatavists)

sorry bout that tangent

also about team America I dont know what it is but it sounds like some idiotic reality TV show and you shouldn't use such things in your arguments honestly many Americans don't give a shit about anything so I doubt the majority really are interventionists (also id like to bring up the ancient history of WW2 in which our damn interventionism arguably saved Europe) and WW1 to a lesser extent also in your 3rd paragraph you bring up some good points Americas crime rates are higher because of poor education health income distribution etc our society not because of poor gun control thanks for seeing the light


drew how are libertatians stupid they seem to me to be the only pragmatic bunch of politicians they aren't conservatives always talking about cathlocism like its a prerequisite to being president ans they aren't democrats who just want to subsidize all the farms and get rid of guns...of course there are the crazy libertatians who put me off abit you always seemed to me like one of those kinds


and no glass allowed at public gatherings what a bunch of stuffy stodgy socialists....HOW do you even know that are all of your policemen lawyers who would think of that law let alone think to remember it...its not exactly obvious that glass wouldn't be allowed somewhere.....and what constitutes large what is a large gathering....just boggles my mind that politicians just go hmmmm lets make glass illegal in large gatherings don't they have anything better to do


by the way id like to point out that criminals will always figure out a way to bring glass to a large gathering regardless of the ammount of police prescense weather aware of the law or not


and if people didn't have access to guns I'm sure plenty would resort to baseball bats we wouldn't want to see that now would we abit gruesome id imagine

"and tom Morgan in your second to most recent post you brought up some good points about Catholicism spot on my mother is the same way (thinks democracy is evil and the pope should make all the decisions) and then preaches to children about relativism or something another word for democracy being evil and how Hitler was the great relatavist (albiet a dictator) (for those of you who don't know relativism is a theory of thought that says something is morally correct ifthe majority agrees) (apparently this is bad and we should let the pope make all our moral decisions) what a load of trash (cant believe this is allowed to be taught to already degenerate teenagers who believe in anything that's cool and who are in fact the great relatavists) "

Thanks. Sounds like your mum is saying some pretty bizarre things (no offense). I just hate how the Catholic Church tries so hard to influence people and Governments that gay marriage is bad and abortion (in incidents of rape) is STILL unethical.


"by the way id like to point out that criminals will always figure out a way to bring glass to a large gathering regardless of the ammount of police prescense weather aware of the law or not "

The laws are to prevent drunken fights getting out of hand (e.g. glassings). People who are drunk tend to do these things regardless of their normal state. Nothing to do with criminals or mentally unstable people.