Any Christians Here (White Giant)

chritanity rocks you filthy athiest!Hiel Jesus!!

Remember there are those who will claim to be a Christian, but not act that way! For ie... Hindu's have the belief that cattle are sacred. If I claimed to be Hindu and you saw me at the local burger joint eating a triple cheese burger, would you not question if I actually was a Hindu?

The same thing applies to somebody who claims to be Christian. All throughout history there have those who claim to be Christian, but by their action prove otherwise. That is one reason why 'Christianity' has such a bad reputation. Just like the actions that Yankee mentioned in a earlier post, those are NON-Christian actions. Because in reality if one actually lived by the standards that a Christian should, then there would not have been the sad history that is associated with so called 'Christians'.

Yankee: "There appear to be many leaders that like little boys (see: Catholic Church)"

Serpent: "All throughout history there have those who claim to be Christian, but by their action prove otherwise[...] Just like the actions that Yankee mentioned in a earlier post, those are NON-Christian actions."

Cardinal Bernard Law resigned as Archbishop of Boston following a year of revelations that he and his subordinates had repeatedly allowed priests accused of sexual abuse to remain in the ministry. (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEEDA103EF93BA15756C0A9629C8B63)

Serpent, are you suggesting that the Archbishop of Boston did not live by the standards that a Christian should? I think that we would both agree that sexual abuse of minors is wrong, and that those who conduct it and allow it to be conducted by helping to cover it up should be brought to justice.

Given that the post of Archbishop is a papal appointment and that, rather than suffer justice under American law, the then-Pope (John Paul II) offered Cardinal Law a position as archpriest of the Rome Basilica of St. Mary Major and he now apparently sits on boards supervising preistly discipline and the appointment of diocesan bishops, would this not also indicate that the Pope himself is indirectly supporting the cover-up? Does this imply that he also does not live by the standards that a Christian should by allowing Cardinal Law to escape justice?

I know this doesn't add anything to my argument, but I like this quote from Christopher Hitchens (http://www.slate.com/id/2116085/).

"Since I have more than once criticized Maureen Dowd in this space, I should say now that I think she put it best of all. A church that has allowed no latitude in its teachings on masturbation, premarital sex, birth control, and divorce suddenly asks for understanding and "wiggle room" for the most revolting crime on the books."

Zetetic, that is not only exactly what I am suggesting, but it is what the truth is. Any reasoning person 'Christian' or not, knows that child abuse is wrong, actually that is something that you wouldn't need a Bible or scroll or anything to understand. Of course there are gonna be bad people in any/all religions, but as you so perfectly pointed out, what did those in authority do about it after the mistakes were made? They in effect minimized the gross wrong that was committed.

The point I was making is that all because a person says that they are Christian does not make them one. Just like any other religion. To actually be a Christian would you not have to live by Bible standards as closely as possible? If you do not, then you cannot be a real Christian. I think it was Ghandi who once said 'I love Jesus, but I hate Christians.' See he loved the idea of christianity, but not the reality of those who claim to be so.

Serpent, are you Christian? If any reasoning person can know that certain acts are wrong, and that to be a Christian you would have to live by the Bible very closely, then why would anyone submit themselves to those in authority who clearly don't live by the Bible themselves?

In fact, if any reasoning person can know that certain acts are wrong, what is the need for the Bible, and thus the need to label someone as Christian or not? Surely it would be better for these people to reason for themselves (at this point it becomes irrelevant whether or not this person believes in a god or gods, as how they act is determined by how they think).

In other words, dispense with the dogma, and let people of reason get on with treating people well.

Zetetic, to answer your first question, I have no idea why. I could only imagine it would be because they think they have nowhere to go. Maybe a blind faith, i really dont know, I have wondered that myself.

But I dont think you understand the point I am trying to make. Maybe I do not explain it well enough. My point is simply, ALL BECAUSE A PERSON SAYS THEY ARE CHRISTIAN, DOES NOT MEAN THEY ACTUALLY ARE. There are several 'fake' christians out there that give the name/term Christian a bad reputation.

As for the bible, of course it is a great book to live ones life by, it has many valuable lessons and things to learn from, but you do not need it for certain simple things. Like the child abuse mentioned earlier you do not need the bible to tell you that it is wrong. That is a given, as is murder, stealing, etc....

I feel like you just misunderstood the point I was trying to make!

I think I may have misunderstood the point you were trying to make. However, your last post has prompted another puzzle for me.

If those of us (including me) who are not Christian try to work out what Christians stand for (or any other religion, for that matter), we naturally turn to figures of authority for that religion. In Christianity's case, that means someone like the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury (here in the UK) and other church leaders as these, one would assume, should best represent the views of their respective denomination. Indeed, Catholicism in Europe vigorously defended the Latin mass for centuries precisely to ensure that the Bible was only accessible via the interpretation of Priests so that it was they who determined what Catholics stood for, rather than those who turned up for mass.

If we, i.e., non-Christians, cannot go by what these authority figures say even though they claim to be Christian (because they demonstrate some non-Christian behaviour, or even downright immoral behaviour), then how can we understand what true Christians stand for? Or even which Christians are true Christians?

Zetetic, it's a well founded fact that the true believers of any religion are exactly those ones that make the religion look good

If the true believers are those that make the religion look good, and the "authority figures" for certain denominations make them look bad, then what is the point in establishing these authorities/organisations to "manage" (for want of a better word) the religion/denomination?

And why do some believers (some of whom must surely be true believers) defend these authorities when criticised?

I find it more than a little worrying that these people who claim to represent all of a denomination can sometimes act in such terrible ways. Particularly given that in this and other countries, these people may be given priviledged access to MPs, etc. Indeed, Anglican bishops still sit in the House of Lords here in the UK.

That is exactly the reason that there are so many religions that claim to be christian. Somebody didnt like what one group of ppl were saying/teaching so they split off and make their own religion. Because how can you have literally hundreds, even thousands of diffrent religions, that although they may agree on a few things, disagree on many others? And still say they are Christian. Not everybody can be right! There is only one truth. And even though there are very very good people in all kinds of religions, all because they are good ppl does not make them right.

Althroughout history and nature there have been many theories and ideas put forth, both religious and non-religious. But there is only one truth. So the responsibility of each person is to determine what the truth actually is. If they claim to be Christian, then they gotta compare their beliefs with what the Bible says. Or like the example mentioned earlier, if they are scientists, then they gotta compare their theory with what other scientific FACTS say.

I agree with you in that it is worrying that many who claim to represent a particular faith hold such authority, and by their actions prove they are nothing like who they claim to represent (In this case God).

Wow, news flash, Christians sin. What a revelation! You'd think someone would have figured that out a long time ago.

What alternative world are you guys expecting? That all Christians, any Christians, live perfect lives? Or that their sins are only little ones?

Of course all sin, including Christians, but not as grossly as many who claim to be Christian are willing to.

How could that possibly be the case, all people sinning as grossly as the most grossly sinning Christians, or of any other group?? That would be a statistical impossibility.

Anyway, people who are in management positions in any organization are not necessarily the best skilled at what that organization does. And the best teachers are not necessarily the best at doing the thing itself. There are unfortunate consequences when we give undue deference to anyone in authority, including spiritual leaders; many don't deserve it, and some take advantage of it. That's not really so surprising though, is it?

No it's not suprising. But no doubt you would agree that if you are to be an effective teacher, you must know the thing being taught. So if as a spiritual teacher of any given religion or faith, you are teaching ppl the best way to live happier healthful and successful lives, to the best of their ability. Therefore you must be doing the same. Otherwise you are what they call.....hmm... a hypocrite!

Again my point is that if I TELL you I am a Christian, but I do not live by standards that a Christian must, am I really a Christian?

I think that the great difference between a real Christian and the non-Christian cannot be found in our actions. Everyone sins - and quite grossly. The difference comes in how the sin is dealt with.

King David, after getting Bathsheba pregnant and killing her husband to cover it up, said "against you and you only have I sinned." Recognition and confession of sin is a key to Christian behavior.

Adam

Adam I agree 100%, at the same time, Christianity is a way of life, not just a label. Along with your last key point a person must do all that is within their power to not make same mistakes.

Adam discussing theology with Serpent. Don't **** up, Adam!


"But no doubt you would agree that if you are to be an effective teacher, you must know the thing being taught." Agreed. "So if as a spiritual teacher of any given religion or faith, you are teaching ppl the best way to live happier healthful and successful lives, to the best of their ability. Therefore you must be doing the same." Not agreed, some people find it difficult to take their own advice. "Otherwise you are what they call.....hmm... a hypocrite!" Agreed, with reservations. "Woe unto you, hypocrites," I know, and "judge not," also, but somehow judging someone a hypocrite often seems to be a very effective conversation stopper, too effective, as though no more thought or understanding is now necessary.

"Christianity is a way of life, not just a label." Agreed.

LOL so then we agree mostly.... You are right, thats the problem! Those that dont live by their own advice. That is if they take the time to have the correct advice at all.

You know when it comes to the idea of judging people, we all have brains and the ability to make decisions and tell in most cases what a persons character is, although not in all cases. In fact that is how we make friends etc.. by judging them. But maybe where a person goes wrong is judging sombody to the point of saying that they have no value or intrest from their Creator/ God.

Because in the case of a hypocrite or even other things, you do not make or even judge them as such. But you can see their actions and discern/judge what kind of character they have. They themselves make that evident. Can't you?

And of course this is all in good conversation and discussion. No hostility intended what-so-ever!!

Serp, I think most people agree on most things, and it's the differences that make for interesting conv ... though there is always someone who seems intelligent, yet sees the world in an entirely different way ... and who's probably thinking the same about you. Anyway, all in good conversation as you say, and it's a nice counterpoint to the hard work of building up a military able to lay waste to entire nations.

I find it odd Christianity is a man made religion about Christ...Not the message he preached.

1. Christ said specifically he came not to abolish the law but to fufil it. Most religions never acknowledge this. The standard reply is "The Law was nailed to the cross". If I commit a crime or in this case dont commit a crime and pay my debt to society does that abolish the law for everyone else?

2. Christs message to the world was not about sin or salvation. Christ preached the Kingdom of God. He commanded his disciples to preach the same message.

3. Christ never called the World to salvation. He stated No man comes to me but the Father draws him. This contradicts the basic philosophy of religion today. If Christ is calling everyone to salvation he is doing a horrible job at it.

4. Christ confirms the truth in Death. The wages of sin are Death. He makes no mention of an enternity in Hell. The other biblical mentions of an afterlife are the same. Dead is dead. You hear, feel, or know nothing. Every one who has ever lived will be resurrected and will account for their lives good or bad and be judged accordingly. But no one is condemmned. No eternity in Hell. No Devil poking you with a pitchfork. No heaven. Just a paradise on Earth full of Muslims, Mormons, Shintoists, Jews, and athiests

I just find it odd so many claim Christ without even knowing what his message was.

Sam you are correct. Just to add to your points:
1. The 'Law' that was fulfilled was the Mosaic law that of course included the ten commandment, but also included many statutes, over 600 of them. This written code regulated the realms of worship, government, morals, justice, even diet and hygiene. It also had laws about animal sacrifices. The obligation to follow those laws word by word did in fact die when Jesus was killed, but He gave a new law. A law motivated by love. In fact at Romans chapt 13 particularly verse 8-10 it even says love is the laws fulfillment. So the principles that are in that law do still apply.

2. At Mt.28:19,20 Jesus talking, commanded his disciple to do that very thing. At Mt 20:28 although it says that Jesus came to be a ransom, notice what it says first as to why he came....to minister!

3.Sam quoted John 6:44. Although at John 14:6 Jesus also said that No one comes to the Father except through me. So of course Jesus is key to having a relationship with God.

4.Rom 6:23 does say the wages sin pays is death. Ecc 9:5 says the dead are conscious of nothing at all. So dead is dead. Everlasting life was never promised to unrepentant sinners. The whole chapt of Psalms 37 several time mention that the meek will inherit the earth. In fact Isa 45:18 says what the reason the earth was even created. And Ecc 1:4 says how long the earth will be here.

Most ppl who claim to be Christian know the 'Lords Prayer' at Mt chapt 6. There Jesus gave a model for ppl to follow when they pray. First thing was for his fathers name to be hallowed, or sanctified(made holy), the second thing was for his kingdom to come. So I agree 100% to claim to be a Christian you need to know what his message was.

Goly gee, Jesus is one cool dude!

Sarcasm aside, the trouble is that the bible is actually very complex. Consider that it begins with God doing stuff, then has a whole period of time where it goes off having a bunch of people doing stuff, then Jesus comes in and tries to clear things up. There will always be a moral grey area. However, you can be sure that following the Ten Commandments, and following most of what Jesus said you will probably be fine. Fact is, there are very few instances where an important theological law wouldn't be obvious to someone with any regard for their fellow man.

I think the most obvious theme apparent in the bible is that of Forgiveness. It is all throughout the Old Testament, and is continually reaffirmed in the New Testament. All Christians should know that people screw up, even themselves, and sometimes often too. Becoming a Christian does not make one immune to sin, just read some of the epistles... they are pretty much Paul reminding the Christians he sent those letters to that it won't be easy.

As for the whole thing about not judging, I believe that it is referring to the condemnation part, not the evaluation part. Example: I can call someone guilty of committing murder, but I cannot gauge whether or not the act was morally wrong in the eyes of God.

I am not the best Christian, but I believe in the Holy Trinity and work to improve myself according to the teachings of the bible. Is not belief and intent enough to allow someone to be called a Christian? Be honest, how often do you knowingly do something that you are absolutely sure is wrong? Mostly likely, never. Either you thought it was necessary for the greater good, or you somehow convinced yourself that your action was morally right (even if someone else would disagree). The latter is the reason for the moral compass in the Bible. If people just decided what was right and wrong themselves, we would have chaos.

The biggest trait that needs to be developed for one to be a good Christian is that of self control and reasonable kindness. The trial is coming to that point and staying there.

<!-Quote-!>Quote:

Matthew 22:36-40 (NIV)

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."<!-/Quote-!>

^^^^ That is the summary of the Bible.

No i dont hate athiest read the furom NAZISM!!!! to see why i said that plz post your comments on what u thot about it.

Sun Tzu alot of the things you said I agree with. A few I dont. But you are right the bible is a complex book that is meant to be read and studied. What I dont understand is the moral 'grey area.' The bible clearly shows and explains what is 'right' and 'wrong.' Otherwise if a grey area exists then are the clear and precise principles in the bible just a suggestion? Also if you have the grey area then who decides what falls into that grey area? Thats why the bible is very specific about things such as morals.

Forgivness is a very important part of the bible no doubt, cause all, including Christians do sin. (Rom 3:23)

I also like the example of judging. We can many times figure if a person is guilty, but thats is all we can do. The only way we can judge that a person did somthing wrong in Gods eyes is if he says it is wrong. But we cannot determine if that person is a repentant sinner(as we would hope they are). That judgement is not ours to make.

As for a Trinity, (which is a word not even found in the bible) I believe that God, Jesus, and the holy spirit(ghost) are seperate things. Jesus being Gods son. And not only belief and intent necessary to be a Christian, but actions must be as well. I may actually believe that I can naturally run a 2 min mile, and I may even intend to do it. But the only way to prove I am what I say I am, is by my actions. In this case naturally running a 2 min mile.

Because the problem with a moral grey area is that like you mentioned "Either you thought it was necessary for the greater good, or you somehow convinced yourself that your action was moraly right (even if someone else would disagree)." The problem with that is the YOU part. Its not really up to US to decide what is morally right and wrong. Thats Gods right. We have shown we cannot shoulder that responsibility.(Jer 10:23) A person can rationalize almost anything. You may even have good intentions for doing so, but many a horrible act has been commited with good intentions behind them.