Biggest Load of BS and clearing the air... so to speak

The notion of a global organization to codify a set of standards to be used by the larger, more powerful groups or individuals as a voluntary, self-imposed measure is something most can understand. It helps avoid needless conflict in cases where issues could be resolved towards a mutually beneficial conclusion. Even if it were just a venue to discuss potential flare ups before they turn hot may not have quite the extensive measure to prevent all-out conflict but likewise would go a long way in diffusing tension. Most games don't have one of these because they have regular resets with groups who actively recruit and seek to train new players. In short, it isn't necessary for them to have it and they're aided any way by the fact that most games are less complex which means less room for that subtle nuance. This one isn't like those. Being a persistent world means players remember a lot more and for a lot longer. If you get in a war here the damage is more long term whether it's actual financial damage or population loss, loss of regions or stunted growth. Elsewhere it's not felt so severely because in a few months time you'll be starting over anyway. An organization like this could really help new players understand the community within this game which by extension can help one to better understand the game itself. This is a nation simulator but has all the makings of being a simulator for geopolitics.

This particular type of organization though has to come from a desire to truly improve upon the condition our world is in. The kind of person needed to run such an organization must display various traits which include being charismatic at least to some degree, having a sense of compassion and being open to new ideas and well-reasoned arguments - the evidence at hand. I don't see this here but I would wager that's likely because those types are feeling disillusioned with the whole thing. Arrogance and condescension are not attitudes which would further any agenda or group rather you experience the exact opposite effect when they are on display; they polarize people.

Both sides are provoking each other - those opposed (whether to the idea itself or those believed to be running it) and those for. Ultimately it's on the shoulders of the one who most wants this organization to succeed to be the "better" person and not have exchanges in kind of the kind which is common here on these forums. This is necessary because it is from those who join that your better world becomes possible. Their contribution, their participation is necessary.

For an organization that is supposed to unify the world you end up turning it against you which should bring you back to the beginning where you ask yourself "what is my objective?" Follow that question up with "Is what I have tried in the past helping me to achieve it?" If the answer is no then you should be re-evaluating things; not chastising people for having different views and being passionate about them or even provoking you. One will never win over the harshest critics but one can win over those who have not yet taken a stance on an issue. Simply put there's no logical reason that this organization with its stated goals should ever be seen as a threat by anyone.

Even if I think you (Hezekiah) took a few short cuts you shouldn't have, the time and energy you're willing to devote to this venture is commendable but you're just not a diplomat. In this case that means you shouldn't be as visible as you've made yourself. You're essentially doing a disservice to that which you care so much about.

no one finds you scary Hez, nor do they find Nluo scary. Don't tell me to go to war level three cause I wont and no not cause I am scared of you, because I am an economic country not a Military country.

Then shut your piehole Antonio.

metgredko, That was a very well thought out speech. I will listen to you. You see exactly what I was trying to do before I got side tracked by Hydra and BME. Also Hydra has essentially taken over the NLUO.

I think you are right on point in your assessment. I thank you for your input. Very well said, and I will take heed.

"Then shut your piehole Antonio"
makes no sense as a reply to what I said.

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The notion of a global organization to codify a set of standards to be used by the larger, more powerful groups or individuals as a voluntary, self-imposed measure is something most can understand.<!-/Quote-!>

Understanding isn't the issue, agreeing with and enforcing is the issue.

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Simply put there's no logical reason that this organization with its stated goals should ever be seen as a threat by anyone.<!-/Quote-!>

Have you read the goals of this government? Its to control that which it doesn't have the right, authority and ability to do so.

It does however, have the right and authority (notice I didn't say ability) to rule or govern those that want to be governed or ruled by it. The majority of LU dosent care if some group of players of even group of feds decide to form some sort of pact or agreement and declare their love for one another. But the problem is when said gov/org/alliance says it has the powers to do so with others on LU.

I'll tell you, it was never my intention, for hydra to take over.

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The notion of a global organization to codify a set of standards to be used by the larger, more powerful groups or individuals as a voluntary, self-imposed measure is something most can understand. It helps avoid needless conflict in cases where issues could be resolved towards a mutually beneficial conclusion. -Met<!-/Quote-!>

that assumes thats what every one want. certainly some want that.

many would play another game, rather than play SimCountries version of "mother may I,"

in fact, in the last few years, with a highly restrictive war game, the entire game, itself, has dramatically suffered, as their are a fraction of the vets their was before war levels.

my issue with the NLUO, began by simply requesting the NLUO at least try to reach its goals, with out lying, or other back handed social tactics.

The NLUO's refusal for transparency, resulted in the creation of Hydra, to force them into a more appropriate role.

If it is the NLUO's goal to enforce peace. They must start with a measure of strength to do that. rather than just expecting others to give up their own power, in exchange for adding to the NLUO's strnegth.

Why would any one want to do that? When its become clear that the NLUO isn't capable of tying their shoes?

I wouldn't trust Nluo with a penny much less my obedience.

im going to give nick names based on avatars.
Josias is Crash cause avatar = crash test dummy.
lord lee is Blue ass cause he is blue and an ass.
Serpent is Gif snake cause his avatar is a gif of a snake.
Hez is dumb hat cause he has a hat and is dumb.
Talsiabeth is Ani cause her avatar is an animai character.

The very nature of this game (any game?) is a power struggle.

As a collection of players nluo don't have any ability so will not ever get anywhere. One or two may have half a clue as individuals, but that only applies to them when you look at them as individuals.

So, thanks for the laughs Lee and Hez et al but it's time for the final curtain to fall. Let Aries do what the original no loo idea was, and learn from him.

And of course Hez, I am waiting for the obligatory "shut your pie hole, meet me at WL3" stuff, but...I am at WL3 and I dont use WP, so...what you gonna about it?

boot man *puts on black thug voice* GET EM!

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Understanding isn't the issue, agreeing with and enforcing is the issue.<!-/Quote-!>

I hadn't stated it was. That was merely a transition into the larger topic of what's necessary in order to properly run this type of organizations.

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Have you read the goals of this government? Its to control that which it doesn't have the right, authority and ability to do so.

It does however, have the right and authority (notice I didn't say ability) to rule or govern those that want to be governed or ruled by it. The majority of LU dosent care if some group of players of even group of feds decide to form some sort of pact or agreement and declare their love for one another. But the problem is when said gov/org/alliance says it has the powers to do so with others on LU.<!-/Quote-!>

I have and it reads as more of a highly structured federation itself. I should have clarified in my post however that by "with its stated goals" I actually meant "your stated goals" as in what Hezekiah states his are in posts. Either the idea of this organization he's created in his mind are not accurately stated on the document or the ideas in his posts aren't. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt in that post as I prefer to do with most.

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that assumes thats what every one want. certainly some want that.<!-/Quote-!>

I make no such assumption in my post. I state there is an understanding by a majority of the reasons behind such a desire. That in no way suggests everyone supports such an idea.

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many would play another game, rather than play SimCountries version of "mother may I,"<!-/Quote-!>

That may be true for the current participants but isn't a universal rule for those who are interested in this type of game. The same effect is had by social norms being created in games with a heavy emphasis on politics. The most grievous offenses which could be conducted typically get announced when the first incident occurs to outline to others what was done, how it was done and what the consequences are. It leads to the same effect these organizations have as unless someone is feeling it's a matter of principle they won't generally risk open, all-out war over most topics if it can be avoided. These games do have power struggles and it's not always by possessing brute force but by subterfuge as well. When subterfuge fails however one may need to fall back to their brute force to have their way. One would see how far that goes if they waste their strength fighting wars for every little thing that bothers them. Some of these games, while possessing significantly less complex mechanics did and still do have thousands of players.

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If it is the NLUO's goal to enforce peace. They must start with a measure of strength to do that. rather than just expecting others to give up their own power, in exchange for adding to the NLUO's strnegth.
Why would any one want to do that? When its become clear that the NLUO isn't capable of tying their shoes?<!-/Quote-!>

If NLUO is in fact intended to be a sort of UN then the problem starts with people putting the emphasis of burden being placed upon NLUO. Frankly I think the whole concept should be brought back to basics. Hezekiah got ahead of himself in a rush to restart the organization and instead should have brought together some of the leaders to the table and negotiated something more basic. Start off with a place to, behind closed doors, discuss issues of grave strategic concern; issues one wishes to avoid. No oath should ever exist for this kind of organization because requiring it is demanding people serve NLUO when it should be NLUO serving the people to help those operating under a similar structure of self-imposed rules.

I think the organization is confusing and unclear. I'm still trying to figure out why SweetPea is leading a military faction of the NLUO against BME. If she and Hezzy want to declare war on new players, so be it. Then I will add Noob Basher to the repetoire of adjectives/names that have been bestowed upon these two players.

I and other federations such as Hydra and Sleeping Giants are trying to grow the game and teach new players.

It is confusing and unclear because if you admitted you understood it, you would have no argument as to your fed-mates joining.

HaHa, sounds like brain washing to me!

Anybody want some Kool-Aid?

met, do to war levels, its not necessary to have an organization that forces compromise, in an unwanted war situation.

any player not wanting to be involved in the game, can remain at WL2. those that go over that...

past that, a group that creates some sanity, from an other wise never ending series of wars. well, the NLUO is the opposite of that. but thats not what i'm getting at. (after all, the most aggressive player in SC history remains unchecked by her own organization.)

when you have a social structure that creates peace, compromise, and communication, pasts its own members. either by military strength, or political influence. well, in the real world, thats what we want.

in a game. its like playing Risk, and having to ask your parents if you can attack your brother. It just doesn't encourage anything to happen, in fact it is the opposite...

stretch that out over time, and you'll reallize, the social collective of enforced peace, is counter productive to the game, as a whole.

over time the players with skill, and ambition, will find a game where they can make use of those qualities. and the peaceful players that remain, will be dramatically lacking in ability.

given enough time of this. those that support the social structure. in an effort to maintain their top dog positions, will eventually chase off thier own soldiers, and have zero strength themselves to maintain the status quo

the next thing that will happen, is the (very few,) players left with skill will be vertual gods. and unstopable.

then we end up with war levels to protect the former social leaders...

and that is what happened. i don't want to see it again. thats why i oppose the NLUO in principle.

how ever, oppose and destroy are 2 different things. Hydra choose not to destroy the NLUO, just oppose it, or rather, offer a check to the NLUO to keep them honest.

i guess the point i'm making, is things that are valued in the Real World, are of less value in a game. and possibly counter productive. if taken to an extreme. and that extreme become a bigger and bigger reality, the stronger a world government gets.

Metgredko is cutting through the spin, and is quite correct in all his posts in this thread. I think he should join the NLUO to help with its public image. All the things you have stated in conversing with the world leaders on this issue is very sobering. The original idea was to bring all feds who want to participate in the organization together in a federation congress to pass laws, discuss issues etc.. The Executive Administration was simply suppose to carry out those laws via war, security council, presidential boycotts, or through the International Criminal Court. Instead, the Executive Administration began to dictate to the federations the objectives instead of the other way around, and that is because of all of the spin, bad publicity, and I am sure some bad international politics on my side as the Secretary General. we have gotten away from the original intent, and that is because of the federations and their jocking for personal power within their own feds through competitive recruiting. So, the government shoots itself in the foot because of this, and many other issues with the broader international community.

For example We as a world government have made statements in the past like " we govern LU" We do govern the world because our organization spans the globe. We do not govern those who do not want to participate. But we do govern the world. Now if you do not want to participate, why acknowledge us at all? If you do not believe we govern the world or you? Why post and say you do not govern the world. Yes we do, but if you are not participating in these politics then the world looks different from your eyes. You don't see a government. Nor will the government see you. But as soon as you speak out against a government you claim to not see, this government will see, and deal with you as if you are participating. These are the simple facts that the majority of the LU International community do not want to deal with. They want to participate, but don't want to participate. That is double minded. So, these the issues. Sort them as you see fit.

The above post from hez is appropriately located in a thread titled - Biggest Load of BS.

Other than that it is just more propaganda, double speak and threats if you dare to speak up straight from the playbook of every wannabe dictator throughout history. Speaking of which most dictators use body doubles which reminds me - hez, say hello to the not really the pope VI for me.

No one will have anything against NLUO if you have keep your things for yourself, but you make post on forum even when you farted.

So please explain me and to everyone else how should no one notice or comment you post about "NLUO gov entire world" when you spam forum each day

for me your post are like in this nazi quote


"If you repeat a lie many times, people are bound to start believing it. "


So why are all this spams for provocation on NO nluo members ?

So that you can say that they participate in nluo if they comment your post ?


Insted of writing on forum i will suggest you that you focus more on developing your country and enterpirse.

Why don't you just form a new government called MYSTERIOUS PRY CLAN - well it is an anagram of Simcountry Players

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met, do to war levels, its not necessary to have an organization that forces compromise, in an unwanted situation<!-/Quote-!>

It should be noted in my posts I've stressed the point of self-imposed limitations; voluntary participation. The only way to truly force compromise is by coercion which is not something I generally endorse.

Compromise though is never necessary; it's simply the smart thing to do in most cases. The better leaders, better players, won't often feel it necessary to compromise because they pick and choose their battles while having a level of preparedness others fear. Whether it's because of their knowledge of the mechanics, resources at their disposal or being adept at the game of politics they'll find there's more room for them to negotiate with a much more desirable outcome than fighting a war. Those who find these things lacking would have no room for error and so need to be even more cautious than others hence creating a greater need for compromise to coincide with a great number of situations requiring one.

War levels while restricting of ones actions are not something which removes compromise from the table. Members of federations, your own or allied ones, may be on different war levels. War in that case would result in some being more exposed than others. Then considering that some may not presently wish to participate in PvP they may change their mind in the future. Waiting to solve disputes until that point just makes your negotiating position weaker. Time does heal, people do forget or move on but it's a risk one is taking. By tackling a problem when it arise the risk of deep seeded emotion being attached to the issue is mitigated. You're not permitting people to dwell on the issue; their feeling wronged or feeling their interests are being threatened or undermined.

Even putting war levels aside, leaving those issues unresolved sends a message to others who might be within your war level. It does have the effect of impacting the view others have of you. Public relations are very important as if you're seen in too negative a light others will align against you in force - just ask Hezekiah about that for only one example.

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any player not wanting to be involved in the game, can remain at WL2. those that goes over that...

past that a group that creates some sanity, from an other wise never ending series of wars. well, the NLUO is the opposite of that. But that's not what I'm getting at. (after all, the most aggressive player in SC history remains unchecked by her own organization.)<!-/Quote-!>

That exception undermines your point. Some people, some groups, according to your own view are not sane. Where do you think this sanity comes from and how is it encouraged? It goes right back to what I was stating; people don't want to fight wars over every little disagreement. After a while it gets to be routine as peace is; boring. I've seen it in other games where alliances may be at war for months, some even years and it isn't uncommon for members to surrender or for a peace to be reached because after all of that time people are just tired of fighting. Even still, peace is more often achieved because war is so destructive and rebuilding takes so long. The more destructive war is then the less incentive there is to fight one. It encourages war as a last resort and players to use other means to achieve the dominance they so desire.

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when you have a social structure that creates peace, compromise, and communication, pasts its own members, either by military strength, or political influence. well, in the real world that's what we want.

In a game. Its like playing Risk, and having to ask your parents if you can attack your brother. It just doesn't encourage anything to happen, in fact it is the opposite...

Stretch that out over time, and you'll realize, the social collective of enforced peace, is counter productive to the game, as a whole.<!-/Quote-!>

A social structure where it's clear that certain things are valid casus belli is actually beneficial because it permits people to avoid issues even before they occur or otherwise to have a check in place so if those things do happen it will be properly responded to in a timely manner so as to allay other's concern. The problem comes from how one uses the casus belli. If it's used to grind an opponent into the dust then demand they submit to draconian peace terms. Those who either desire or are indifferent to war however are just likely to disregard the social norms as if they never existed.

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given enough time of this. those that support the social structure in an effort to maintain their top dog positions, will eventually chase off their own soldiers, and have zero strength themselves to maintain the status quo<!-/Quote-!>

I've actually seen this exact thing happen in another game where there were originally two factions with a third, neutral faction sprouting up later. The first two fought with one of them gaining dominance. In part due to the different personalities within their bloc they went about seeking enemies. The imposition of draconian peace terms created fear in almost everyone which led to a lack of reasons for war and the fabrication of them. Over time the differences within their bloc grew, along with the emotions attached to said differences which caused a virtual civil war within the bloc and one side being a clear victor. With allies being eliminated from the core group and others while still fearful, becoming more alienated their position was significantly reduced to a point where they themselves lost a war. This conflict actually saw a lot of players return who previously quite in protest at how draconian peace terms were, along with a disapproval of the way politics were conducted. Others took their place of dominance and while not issuing terms on the same level to other alliances, still sought external rivalries over some largely frivolous issues. Gradually, with a lot of PR nightmares they too lost their position and were defeated in war. It's cyclical; healthy. It keeps the politics moving which has the effect of keeping people from becoming so demoralized they simply quit.

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the next thing that will happen, is the (very few,) players left with skill will be vertual gods. And unstoppable.

Then we end up with war levels to protect the former social leader...<!-/Quote-!>

Several years ago there was a browser based space game. It had thousands of players and who knows how many alliances. Two of them signed a non-aggression pact and by the end of the round (several months) they controlled well over half the military strength. Anyone who wasn't in them was farmed. Then there's the example I gave above. It's quite possible that a group becomes so powerful they're virtual gods despite there being a high player count. That other game I mentioned had over 30,000 players when that one group became so dominant. The social structure, what was acceptable, was built around the decisions of those in power. Once they were taken down a lot of it was questioned, with some of it being reversed.

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and that is what happened. I don't want to see it again, that's why I oppose the NLUO in principle.<!-/Quote-!>

If the NLUO is to remain with the structure of a federation, or bloc of them, I can understand this principled opposition. Heck, depending on its actions over a prolonged period of time I might even join an opposition in spirit if not substance. If though it were remodeled to be a UN type organization with no actual authority and any adherence to it being voluntary then opposing it would be akin to opposing negotiations between two federation leaders who have no interest in fighting a war; unreasonable.

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I guess the point I'm making, is things that are valued in the Real World, are of less value in a game. and possibly counter productive, if taken to an extreme. and that extreme becomes a bigger and bigger reality, the stronger a world government gets.<!-/Quote-!>

Extremes usually are counter productive but then having an organization to help mediate disputes at the request of concerned parties isn't extreme at all. It's asking a third party to do the same thing you'd like to do yourself. It's merely a continuation of the desire you already have. That concept, itself isn't harmful in the least. The big divide here is that the NLUO is set up yeah, as a world government which does differ from the talk of those in it. The talk suggests something of a mediator role.

If people desire to be cavalier with their nations, their corporations, their actions then that's entirely up to them but to have expectations that they will either attain dominance or retain it is just unrealistic. They'd find themselves being surpassed by other groups who plan and plot far more effectively than they do. This is what sets the terribads part from the elite. The elite will devote time to a game in an attempt to achieve excellence in more ways than one. That excellence could be through the best guides in existence, the best diplomatic team or a network of spies to undermine their opponents. Most people do prefer to play games casually but when there's a game of politics and a persistent world you'll still find that elite group which when started will seem as if nothing but when matured could easily dominant the rest because of the efficient managing.

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Metgredko is cutting through the spin, and is quite correct in all his posts in this thread. I think he should join the NLUO to help with its public image.<!-/Quote-!>

I have no interest in joining a group to help their public image.

well, i can't really justify the length of post to go back point for point, but well said.

so i'll pick one point at random. semi-random

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the next thing that will happen, is the (very few,) players left with skill will be vertual gods. And unstoppable.

Then we end up with war levels to protect the former social leader...
*****

Several years ago there was a browser based space game. It had thousands of players and who knows how many alliances. Two of them signed a non-aggression pact and by the end of the round (several months) they controlled well over half the military strength. Anyone who wasn't in them was farmed. Then there's the example I gave above. It's quite possible that a group becomes so powerful they're virtual gods despite there being a high player count. That other game I mentioned had over 30,000 players when that one group became so dominant. The social structure, what was acceptable, was built around the decisions of those in power. Once they were taken down a lot of it was questioned, with some of it being reversed.-met<!-/Quote-!>

i hate quoting quotes, but i felt i needed to on this.

the thang that i tried to make clear... in simcountry, the natural ebb and flow of politics, and power... is often made stale, by the Games Masters effecting rules to keep players of a particular flavor, in power. it is why we have war levels. their was a powerful, peaceful, group, that dominated a world to the degree, that nothing, ever, happened. another group, saddled up, and took over. how ever, it wasn't "fair," for a dinosaur style group to loose their power, and the game masters added war levels to protect former world leaders.

if it was simply one group gain power, until do to life changes, boredom, or what ever, their strength wanes, and another group takes over. but thats not what happens in SC.

that process in SC is considered unfair. and long term, its makes the game stale.

the conflict with Hydra and the NLUO began...

well, originally, I spoke out against certain tactics of the NLUO.

Particularly. iniatially, the Hez sent out a recruiting message to all the players on LU. those that responded by declining, where excluded from the list of players. How ever, players that weren't interested enough to even respond, or where obviousbly inactive, where listed as members of the NLUO.

I felt that lying about the size of the player base with in the NLUO, was an underhanded tactic to create a snowball effect of players trying to join a popular political group. And i stod up to them.

Do to frustration, (talking any sense to hez is like talking to a wall.) I threaten the NLUO. How ever, do to war levels, i really couldn't. I was really just blowing hot air. How ever, in the drama/argument that followed. Hez managed to piss off another vet, scarlet, by posting our (mine and hez's,) chat log, pretty much as it was going on. Together, Scarlet and I created the first Hydra branch. We were quickly followed by jackseptic, and serpent.

and escalation occured. which resulted in Hydra dominating the NLUO. once dominate...

well, the hydra principle is that all players have an equal chance at playing their game, their way. and it violates our principles to destroy the NLUO do to political differences. so rather than disband them, we have adopted an indivual policy of helping them, or ignoring them.

it still remains that we have our own security, and goals. so that we have something to stand up for. given the aggresive nature of Hez and the NLUO, we continue to have problems.

but it is better this way, than with out the NLUO. Even if i disagree with their premiss.

Although the 'roots' of Hydra as Josias mentioned was to balance the NLUO we have evolved somewhat since then. We now have many many new players that we help and train. Hydra has the ability to move and react quickly to threats made against it. Many newer or less experienced feds have asked for assistance from Hydra and in most if not all cases that assistance has been extended, including to the NLUO.

As Josias stated, the goal of Hydra is not to destroy the NLUO. (It should be noted that the NLUO is doing a pretty good job of that itself). The NLUO has a right to exist so long as they do not claim dominance of all LU presidents. In reality the more feds that LU has, the better.

Now Hydra is beginning to branch out to other worlds. We have a good thing going and Im excited to be associated with this group of players. If you would like to be associated with us, on any planet, then contact a Hydra member.

.......Well, until my fed-mates say otherwise, Hydra is now on my "observe from a distance" list. But do not worry, for you should be honored to be on that list of mine.