World War On White Giant (White Giant)

BC - We're not trying to convince people we're in the 'right'...war is rarely about 'right' and 'wrong'. At this point the argument is more structural in the game...a huge part of this game is war...but it's no longer OK to declare on anyone if you've worked really hard to get good at it. It's kind of like getting the #1 finance rank and then being told you can't make money anymore...kind of stupid.

war isnt about who is right ...only who is left ;)

I guess that adds some realism. We all have differrent opinions. I know mine have changed since I started. I ran off a player because of the 'no defense' arguement. And I don't think of it as 'thievery' as some might. Bullying would be mire appropriate, but that's the game.

I think it comes down what we think makes this game good, and then will this cause the game to be better or worse in the future. Threatening people into perpetual WP or causing them to reduce to a SM and C3s is not, in my opinion, going to make this game any better. You complain about there being too few players and that people aren't joining Feds. Well, it sounds like this is causing people to quit or cutback, and why join a fed if this is the result?

Problem is, you guys are talking out of both sides of your mouth. One way on LU and another on WG.

Hi.

My name is Lolosaurus, and I participated in the war against WGC.

Before this, I had never really fought a war against active players...just c3s for stripping, and inactives. Coming from this position, I had no idea what to expect.

Well, last night I took 3 countries in southern AB. There wasn't any resistance, and they all went down in a little over an hour each.

After getting on to SC this morning, reading the WG newspaper, and seeing all the points raised on the forum, I decided that this was not a fun war and not what I wanted. So, I wish to make amends to the players whose countries I took and extract myself from the war.

I sent a message a few hours ago to the affected players. I sent the same message to all 3 and I can't post the exact text here because I didn't save it. Paraphrasing, what I basically said was that keeping their countries would not be in the spirit of honest competition, and I wanted to give them back. They could either retake the countries (I'd remove all defenses) or buy them back at the minimum price of 50 GC and I'd give them extra cash to compensate for this cost.

Well, here is the message I just got from Frank Stone:
Listen asshole you have fucked up my game as well as many others. I have been a peaceful player, never even went after C3s. Only reason I added weapons was to move up the rankings. I dont wqnt the countries back or anything to do with you. Go #### yourself.

I understand that people are angry over losing their assets, but this is uncalled for, particularly when I've explained my position and offered compensation. I do not think I want to compensate this player any longer. To be honest, I'd rather de-reg that country fully loaded and watch it fade to nothing.

BC, I really understand where you're coming from. I'm not sure you understand where we are coming from.

We generally play the game in the conventional way. We build our countries, and defend our countries. We have discovered profitable econ strategies, and on most worlds, our empires are cash cows, despite having large militaries.

We have made as many levels as we care to (who feasibly can go past level 14 and 15?).

All that is left in the game for us now I guess is being declared on by wendy sporadically or using war protection for ever.

There are no politics left in this game. No one interacts with each other except to cry when they get their stuff taken by a complete noob.

I've seen the WORST war tactics I have ever seen in this war, and it shocks me that people would have several hundred nuclear weapons launchers, but yet have no offensive weapons to speak of. What in the world are you doing? How do people with empires of 12 countries, not know to shoot air defense? How hard is this game really?

It's disappointing really that this war ended up as it did. I'm sorry that in 2 months, we can half-heartedly set up enough to take out a massive federation, but really, it wasn't hard... at all.

Perhaps this decision to attack wasn't the greatest, but really, why not? If people really are leaving the game and the game is in a state of decay, status quo certainly isn't doing well enough. If simcountry wants to become an econ-only game, it should just go ahead and do it. I might play, who knows.

If me attacking ANYONE is just regarded as poor taste, what really is there to play for besides being attacked by Wendy or eternal war protection? I don't see much of a reason to be in a federation otherwise, and could just sit in war protection making money. Couldn't I just play an econ only game at that point? Is that all simcountry is?

I said at the top that this was bad, I think the response kinda summed it up.

Flip a coin, just be sure it lands on your side.

Nice show of class, Lolo for falling out, not much of a challenge huh?

Somebody mentioned my name?

I'll make it clear that I haven't lost a country to war on this account yet... I've fought two players so far.

@eo

Again, I thought this wasn't about me, you have the floor now tough guys, leave me alone.

Screw you Lolo, you are in fact exactly what I said you were. Am I going to keep giving $$$ to play this game every month when someone like you can come along and, without giving me any time or warning, totally destroy my peaceful work? No. Why would I want my countries back? So you can take them again at your whim? Just like I didnt have time to prepare for your war, I dont have time to screw around retaking countries and buying and selling to make you feel better now that you are feeling guilty for destroying our countries. I dont even know how to retake a country! Of course there was no resistance, we weren't playing a war game, as you knew. Go back to the immoral world where you came from and leave me alone.
Frank Stone
Franks Folly
White Giant

i think whats deceptive, is mil assets. Players that are considered vets have massive military...from old lvl requirements. Now, there is a peaceful mode but not e1 uses it, given they already have mil available. Weapons are usually defensive only

I don't think so at all BC...we like feds and wish the fed system was stronger. If we wanted to destroy WGC then we would have just started at the bottom and worked our way up and wouldn't have told them they would get their countries back. We were hoping for a traditional federation war, a good challenge, we'd win some battles, lose some battles, eventually one side would win...I thought we would win eventually but I didn't expect this...so we f*cked up...clearly misread the situation. In a traditional federation the players at the top are more than capable of defending themselves against attackers and it's their job to defend the smaller/beginning players from attackers which is the most difficult part. We thought we were bypassing that by only attacking the biggest and most veteran players...again we were wrong.

I'm not threatening anyone into perpetual WP, I'm just saying it seems odd that people have war slaves and it's not OK to declare on them. Or people have a 500 mil army and it's not OK to fight them. I don't think the answer is more WP, I do think it is more federations, but federations have to be strong enough to survive attack otherwise they aren't doing much.

There were alot more players in this game before, when war was rampant everywhere...a lot more forum posts, a lot more activity and a lot less attachment to individual countries...people act like their countries are pieces of priceless art. The fact is I can build a top 10 war slave that makes a small profit monthly in less than a month, this isn't 'life's work' or anything...it's a game...as in any other game, you win some, you lose some. Just like this situation for us, we won the war, we took a bunch of countries but ultimately we didn't really get what we wanted to begin with which was a good fight...so we lost the thing that we wanted most.

Come on man, this is getting really over the top. It's like I told you the first time: I'm new to war. I didn't know this would be a massacre. Maybe I should have or maybe not, but the fact is that I didn't. If I haven't done so before, I want to make it clear that I am extracting myself from this war and likely leaving White Giant entirely. I will not retake your countries or anyone else's. If I was interested in your countries or assets I'd just keep them right now since I already have them.

Look, before we started fighting, you warned me that you had "ample defensive weapons and nuclear capability." To me that indicated a willingness to fight. If you didn't want to fight you should have just told me you were an econ player and weren't prepared or interested in war. I would have left you alone.

I'd give you the country back for free but I can't, the mechanism isn't in. The best I can do is let you buy it for 50 GC and give you cash to cover the cost.

So why not stop when it was easy to take the first country WB?

Oh, back to the asset raiding part of it...


With all this bad PR Of course, you wanna give them back right...

Wendy, what war would you say isn't an asset raid? Ever? The war where a player is nuked to the ground instead? Curious what war you define as NOT asset raiding. Is war just to be banned or frowned upon permanently?

I messaged everyone I was attacking before decs went live and offered them back should I take them. Jo and Dale can confirm this. If I needed resources, I probably wouldn't throw up a brand new empire on White Giant that bleeds cash.

@eo

Again, I thought this wasn't about me, you have the floor now tough guys, leave me alone.

So why not stop when it was easy to take the first country WB?

Oh, back to the asset raiding part of it...


With all this bad PR Of course, you wanna give them back right...

Don't detract from the message E-Unit

If you want to be left alone, you can refrain from posting.

Once we realized it was THIS easy, we stopped. WGC had players who came out firing. Jaffle and Keith were both shooting as much as any of us.

Lolo, my countries never made it into the "Top 20" list of military might, economic might, anything else on White Giant ever. So why was I on your list of targets? Because I had built up a nice, juicy empire that someone could take. Don't you think I have a right to be pissed after putting in nearly 3 years here? I only bought arms to level up to 13 and reach #1 for a month of passing fame. Again, go f--k yourself.
Frank Stone

Umm you gave them no choice but to fire. You attacked them, regardless if they were going to fire or not. You then proceeded to take economic countries after promising not to do so.

Of course you stopped. Public relations can be a *Iotch

Again, you wanted the spotlight, you now have it. Try to deflect from what the problem is now, YOU.

At least LoLo had enough Stones to apologize. You on the other hand... tsk tsk... the coin.

WGC has not posted to this thread so far because we have learned over the last four years that most wars are started because of posts to this forum and we wish to avoid that. Our goal has always been to enjoy playing SimCountry and to encourage others to enjoy playing SimCountry. WGC is comprised of players who wish to create balanced empires, understanding and excelling at the economic side of the game, achieving high scores and levels and being able to defend ourselves and our newer players against threats. We have never wanted to destroy anything that is valued by other players, whether or not they are in our federation, and our track record bears that out. We have fought a number of wars, always started by another player, and have always showed restraint in the outcome.

WGC did not seek this war and made every effort to avoid it. However, WGC has lost the war. We were destined to lose for a number of reasons:

The mob planned the attack for many months, scouted our countries, benefited from insider knowledge and built up their military for that purpose alone, ignoring levels, scores and economics with the sole purpose of destroying WGC.

The mob insisted that we should enjoy them destroying in a few hours what took us years to build and, when we did not, used that as an excuse to carry on attacking us.

We offered a friendly wargame, we offered one-on-one battles, but they declined. That would have removed their advantage.

Their interest did not lie in promoting the war aspect of SimCountry - those remaining members of WGC who have the resources will be forced to activate war protection in order to continue playing the game the way they choose to. That is contrary to the mob's stated goal: "No war of any substance has been fought this calendar year ... This is truly not the spirit of a healthy game, or a fun one." Neither did it lie in testing their skills fairly against equally experienced players. Their goal was to brag about beating a fed that was perceived as being the biggest in the game, despite never having sought or promoted it. They did not question why we had achieved that reputation. If they had, they may have realised that #1 war rank is nothing compared to generosity, respect for others and wide-ranging skills.

The mob have argued that this is a war game and that we should have been prepared for war. We were prepared for war and for a long time have been able to protect our more inexperienced fedmates from players who sought to prey upon them. If we were a war fed, with no newbs to defend and only experienced players who cared for nothing but to build their offensive military, we might have given them a fair fight. But the mob were few, experienced, well-resourced, had nothing to lose and did not care for anything but their own goals. WGC is not, and will never be that.

The mob have argued that they understand building an empire. However none of them have spent any time building their empires on our planet, and their empires on other planets are protected from us, since WGC plays only on White Giant. Therefore they had no empires at stake, whereas WGC did.

The mob have argued that they support new players, but they have consistently threatened our less experienced players, holding them to ransom against our vets acceding to their demands. If they really supported new players, then they would support federations which do not threaten them and who help new players to succeed, like WGC.

The mob promised that they did not wish to target economic players yet, when they were notified of economic players they had declared upon, argued that those players were "well respected fighters" based on the size of their empires, not their style of play.

The mob have said they did not do this to raid assets, yet they have targeted the largest players with the most assets. They then promised to return the countries they took - at a price and minus the assets.

The mob have argued that they needed to needed to neutralise a threat caused by them declaring on WGC. If ever there was a circular argument, that is it.

The point that the mob have not yet understood is this: There are many ways to play this game. The mob have only one way of playing and they have demanded that WGC play it their way. We refuse to do that. They have destroyed what we built, they have removed our ability to protect new players and their tactics have convinced some really good players to leave the game. But when all is said and done, those of us in WGC who remain still respect other players and the many ways there are of playing the game. The mob will always just be bullies. This has been a war of those who wish to build versus those who wish to destroy.

It's interesting that neutral players, Wendy and one of the mob's own fed members all agree that this was out of order. Even the mob have admitted that no one has won here. That says something.

WGC would also like to thank the many players - sadly too many to mention each one - who have sent personal messages of support and offers of help.

Hugs and respect

Jo

War is Hell....Someone famous said that.

Everyone that knows me in this game knows I have not been in a single war with a human player. Never have and never will, I play an econ only game.(In permanent WP since September last year) That being said:

The victors in this war need not have to explain themselves. You have chosen a path in this game as warmongers...Well, so be it. It's only a game.

"Econ" players have no business being in a federation. When you join a federation, you are commiting your empire and it's resources to the mutual defense of each other. ...And not using your fed mates as mercenaries to fight your wars.


This war has exposed the largest federation on WG as nothing but a paper tiger.

When the dust settles, the players involved in this conflict on both sides should use the knowledged gained and grow from the experience.


Regards,

Maestro

It wasn't exposed Meastro

It was known. I knew that only a few countries had any relevant power to defend against a well prepared and coordinated resource rich attack. I as only one person fighting multiple members of WGC could only limit my attacks to countries that were inactive because I could seize them. But as one player could not have ever hoped to achieve what was done here taking several large asset rich countries.

The mob and its' players were well aware of the true capabilities and reach of the military of WGC. They have done this on LU as well with another at the time largest fed that was nothing but a paper tiger. In that fed only one or two were moderately war experienced and one was largely a cash built empire.

I pointed out that the mob is driven by greed. It is apparent if you look at their behaviors that they only wish to play war, if there is some prize at the end of the road. They came to LU built up some inactives, mostly large asset rich inactives, and called it their empire. They used it to take on players who had built their empires. Same deal now on WG. And other places on a smaller scale. War is not fun if you calculate what is needed to take down an empire of fed regardless of what they do in defense. That is not skill that is stockpiling and capitalizing on skills not possessed by the opponent. What skill the opponent has is quickly offset by the number of weapons one commits to the war. I can have 4 or 6 million man army, yet it all is MIB. I can have 200 trillion in military assets and 90% of it being ammo. The Mob did their homework to their benefit, but the only one who will be fooled by the 'good war' excuse is players like you who only started the game recently and think every country over 60 mil in pop and 100 trillion in military assets will go for 100 gc.

What happened here is nothing new. This has been going on and I have been saying it for a long time. This group of players has been on front street for quite some time, but people are unwilling to do the things they need to do to counter this kind of behavior.

This will no doubt force the game to be played different than before.

I will say this. It is easy to build economic nations that will make enough money for wp and then some. I have been doing it for quite some time on LU. I think the reason the Mob hates me so much is that I can reach out and touch them while I have what I value to be worth playing the game for in WP. That said they are crying about me and c3s so much, yet I have not engaged any of them in months. Despite the repeated calls to do so, the provocation, the insults, the boycotts, etc. When I want to I will flatten a country one by one by one if I want to do so. EO can attest to that reality. And that is why they can't stand me. This group has a superiority complex, they wish to dictate how you , think, feel, play, contribute, interact, participate etc. And if you don't adhere to their reality, they wish to take your things. With me there will be no such luck.

Newer players that are entering the game or staying behind should in fact build in WP. Persistently transfer stores of ammo or goods and cash to your main. This is what it is literally provided for. The mob will say the exact opposite, but having your assets stored in your secured main so that you cannot be completely wiped out in the even that the mob comes along was exactly what the gamemasters wished when they introduced secured mode.

This event and others like it, is probably the single most likely reason they will not remove it despite recent requests for the gms to do so. Some people don't know when too much is too much.

What I truly hope, is that players who were rubbed the wrong way find within themselves to dust themselves off and keep playing. The community at large sees what is happening and it won't be long before the system, but more importantly the players, react and adjust.

The first way is putting all your slaves into WP. If you take the bait away, the fish won't bite.
Second, you could run an economy that will pay for WP by accident with very little effort. There are several ways to make even more than WP warrants, and this will be what you can shave off the top for other things.
WP is doable, and affordable. WGC of all feds should know this. Start with WP, and you can stand your ground, even make sure, these fewls don't last long on your planet.

Windy - As you said, this has nothing to do with you, so shut up.

At the beginning of the war it wasn't so easy necessarily, they successfully brought down 50 or so carriers which made it more difficult however we didn't realize that the full extent of their offense had already been spent so we continued on being shot at and we have continued to take shots although we have stopped fighting, which is no big deal.

Ultimately, it was very easy and I don't think we took even half of the countries we had planned to...I only took 4 countries, 3 because they were directly bordering EC's top war slave and therefore were more dangerous than the others...the 4th...that was just because I REALLY don't like Ian...he deserved it.

I will say that we screwed up, I won't apologize to WGC though. They were a huge fed with a huge military who had complete control of an entire world, although they say it wasn't by their choice, there are plenty of players out there who will disagree with that and have felt intimidated by WGC. I say that we screwed up because we expected a challenge, we thought they were a fed that could and would fight. Instead it wasn't much of a fight at all. Yes we scouted them out, yes we built empires designed to win that war, that's what you do when you're going on offense and their own over-confidence has caused them to stop doing things like, watching what is going on around them and noticing that one of the best war players in the game has a country in their region called 'WB 020 WG HM Strip' that is loaded with 50T in military assets and had been growing in both pop and military assets for 2 weeks. Not seeing us coming was pretty...well...naive...we were all over the place and I think our track record is pretty clear...we like war...not a secret.

We targeted players with the most assets this is true...but not because they had the most assets, because they had the most MILITARY. The list of people from WGC who have been victimized is a joke when you look at their empires, war ranks, mil assets and game experience:

Jo
Ian
Kaymen (We didn't know he was leaving the game and once we discovered stopped all attacks and will be returning the countries we took)
Aaron
Jaffle
Dale
Keithvann

Joe Green decd on us so we returned the decs but didn't take his countries, Industmech and Frank Stone were never part of the original plan and as you can see both have been offered their countries back.

Saying we didn't have empires we had built is a joke, just because our empires aren't currently at high levels doesn't mean that there weren't plenty of assets on the line for us. I have 2 75 mil pop countries just like my countries on LU, a 50 mil pop and several 25-35 mil pop and I fought with all of them...everyone else was the same. Except EC and Serp who actually had very large empires on WG before any of this...so that's a stupid complaint Jo.

Ultimately is the game better off because of this war, no, unless in some way it sparks a revolution in SC back towards war which is what most players who have left the game were interested in most. But I fear that isn't likely and instead we have made the game worse off at this point...or at least WG because some members of WGC probably will leave...there is no reason for them to and no Jo, your players don't all have to be in WP, we're done there, we went for a challenge and were disappointed.

Stating that there are many ways to play this game is like saying there are many ways to play football...offense oriented, defense oriented, 4-3, 3-4, I formation, 5 wide, etc. Those are ways to play football, you want not a different way to play SC but the structure to be completely different. More than 100 products of the 215 or so that are made are specifically designed for war, war is an integral part of the game structure...it is a formation of SC just as econ is a formation of SC...if you want a structure change then lobby to have war removed although I fear there will then be no game left.

Shut up or what?

You'll huff...
and puff...

And blow my WP down?

I think I'll speak freely and wherever and whenever I feel.

You just need more cheeze.

Take your mask off nobody believes you are the goodguy anymore.

I really hate that I have to even post here as it has always turned out to be a mistake to get involved in the game chat or this forum but there are some things that must be said and addressed.

First, the reason we urge WGC players to not post on the game forum is because it always seems to end in a flame war with the original topic lost somewhere mid thread. Members are not banned, it is recommended that it is avoided and if a post causes issues for members then the member who caused the issue is held accountable.

Second, as raised by a few players military assets should never be confused for military power, nor should standing army. I personally had assets in most of my large countries but they were hold overs from the earlier war engine and basically were stock piled and not active. EO can confirm this as he is in possesion of those countries now. Anyone could have seen if they looked hard enough that although my war assets were high I had virtually no units set up at all.

I personally had never been involved in a war with the new war engine since it was brought in, I don't like it and it takes too much time. I am busy running my company and don't have the time to do the point and click for six hours and hope the person I am fighting is in the same time zone as me.

Third, WGC grew into the largest fed because we attracted like minded players who did not want to be involved in the other worlds that are considered more war like. We do not go around bullying people into doing things our way or threatening people. We simply gathered players who were looking for a social game that involved strategy and working together. We provided assitance as noted above to new players while they got started so they would not be targets of asset thieves.

Did this make us a target? It did. I will not apologize for providing that service to new players though, I had it happen to me when I started playing this game a long time ago. Ms Claws and her fed stepped in and assisted me and I liked that and it was how I wanted to play the game.

Fourth, to threaten the remaining players in WGC to contact you to join a MOB WGC federation or else be destroyed completely disproves your assertations above:

From: WB 001 WG LM Econ
To: Hanky Panky Hippy Land
Real Date: 07-08-2010 20:16:33
World Date: April 08 2745

"It's time they were replaced by a fed who can actually protect it's members, one who doesn't play the victim when someone less than half their size attacks them. You should post on the forums that your econ and small guys should contact me or EO expressing their interest to join The Mob WGC, we'll take care of them and won't let our ego's put them at risk."

Fifth, if what you sought was really a fun war, and truly wished to remain friends and possibly work together afterward something could have been worked out. I am sure if you had asked for a war of 5 on 5 most of us would have agreed, I would have. It has been done before and worked.

That is not what you did and to keep saying it was for fun is just an insult to those players who lost countries.

To say it is not personal, of course it is, there are thousands of hours put into those countries for some players and of course they are going to be pissed and send you nasty messages, this surprises you???

I personally will not accept my countries back from EO, I have sent him messages to that effect and have been polite about it. Obviosuly I am pissed and my general feeling to all your members is FU, but who wouldn't be feeling that way. If I did it to you would you be feeling any different? It bothers me even more that someone I considered a game friend and a former member of the fed was involved but that is the world of online games, it happens.

There will be people who leave the game because of this, I will not be one of those people. I will continue to play and build and try to help new players as WGC has done for the past three years. Will WGC and MOB be friends, allies, not as long as I am chair we will not. Someday someone will do to you what you have done to us, I hope I am still around the game to watch.

I will thank EO publically for his offer to return my countries but I dont want them back.

I will thank Lolosaurus for his same offer to Frank but I support frank in his reply. I think he is the one person in your group that actually gets it.

WGC shall remain on WG and continue to play the way we want to only from here on out we will not forget to watch our backs. Thanks for the lesson boys.