W3C - False accusation at the Security Council (Little Upsilon)

This is a proposal put to a vote at the UN and rightly rejected.

CarlosG is falsely accused.

a huge amount of ammunition disappeared indeed from the country.
However, the ammunition disappeared AFTER the sale of the country.

At the time of the sale, the country had all the assets in place and its value was as expected.

several hours after the sale, the weapons and ammunition disappeared.

we have dug this out in all details as we know exactly what was moved, where to and when.

we have detailed logs and we know what was at each space center, country stock etc. during each month run and between these runs.


The following is an absolutely FALSE and baseless accusation.

The Resolution was a proposal by President John Henry Eden with the following motivation:

CarlosG is a scammer.... He lied to me on a country purchase...He said that the country had 310T in military assets...which the game did show...but he secretly moved majority of the weapons to CG 3000 before the game reset...After the reset, it stated less than 30T in military assets..no drought I will get my gc back from the gm, but I want to do everything possible to make him pay...including a boycott....It's up to the great players of this world to punish this guy with extreme prejudice. Let's stand together and vote for this proposal and boycott CG 3000.

The GM did not promise any compensation.
The GM received a mail message accusing carlosG and looked into it using all the data available to him.

CarlosG has respectfully done what was agreed.

When I talked about compensation, I was told from Blueserpent yesterday that normally if there was any wrong doing from the sale, it would be reverted by the GM...I never mentioned that there was any agreement with you in the dialogue. Thanks for posting what I said and proving me right. Now...lets get to nitty gritty..shale we...
I purchase a country from carlosG that reported it had 310T in military assets and like 200T in country. Did my fancy math calculations and decided to purchase it for 2000gc. It had high defense index and good offense index....I look in the defense page and saw that it had like 500K in helicopter missiles and some battery missiles....no weapons at all.....Now, can you please Tom....how can a country have good defense indexes with almost nothing in defense? And the offensive index were good but had almost no weapons. It did have some ammo that there was allot of...some types, but not 310T worth...seriously...and the ammo that was there was the "can't sell on the open market type". Figures....And in a few game months the game read that there was less than 30T in military assets....Please wise Tom...explain this?.......I did get your e-mails regarding some shuttle purchases......was moving the "can't sell on the open market ammo to my stock pile in my main....If I can't sell them...thats what I do

Tom, Tom, Tom.....now what am I going to do with you?....lol Got your second e-mail....I know big numbers are hard to calculate, but don't get confused with what I have in my stock pile on Raven Rock.....alot of that was already there from my past investments...now I can hold your hand and go threw every little asset to clear the confusion.

O... parading that my proposal got rightfully rejected, Tom.......seriously?! What I proposed was just a slap on the hand for CarlosG. Now he will face a more dyer consequence of my rage,thanks to you.. of course. You will see shortl.

I tried to resolve this with you mailing questions to you and trying to hear your side of the story.
Now you came here to continue the discussion.
fine with me.

You are forcing me to reveal what we have seen on the logs.
this is not so good. It is in fact very very serious.

you have accused another player of wrong doing, asked us to ban him and proposed a vote against him in the SC.

nothing was moved away from the country until 3 hours after you bought it.

I saw all the weapons in the country after you bought it.
i saw them moving into the space center and disappearing from the statistics but not disappearing from our logs. You do see the spike in the value on the assets report.

Then I saw them moving on. lots of shuttles to Raven Rock. I saw how much ammunition and how many weapons were on Raven rock before, during and after.

This should not have taken place here. You could better discuss it with the GM as we did before by mail.

If you looked, you would have seen that the defensive index was made from many radar planes, a not unknown stategy as they dont use ammunition.

A strategy......for falsifyng the country's defenses? Because thats the only reason why a person would do that...you hear this Tom?....

In this case, the entire product package that was in dispute was ammunition.
lots of it but ammunition does not have any influence at all on the defense indexes.

there were no major changes in the defense indexes only in the asset values for weapons and ammunition as seen on the assets report for the country.

in addition, the defense indexes are recalculated once in 4 hours. a lot can happen in between.
in this case: ammunition only.

I hear this John Henry.
It has nothing to do with this case and I don't think we can leave this case as if nothing happened.

you proposed to ban this innocent player from the chat and the forum.
you proposed a boycott at the SC.
You wanted us to compensate your "loss" of more than 300T (worth 2000 gold coins).

now what?

Don't you see the issue....if the high indexes for defense was just based on radar plan strategy from an a dishonest player...then it makes the deal a scam....Wrongfully advertising and falsifying indexes...So this is the honest player you were talking about on the top of the page....it surely doesn't look like an honest player from where I am standing. He isn't an innocent player...I can't make it any clearer, and your shocked from my actions ... (scratches his head).......You have a list of what was transferred back and forth...like you paraded on this post....then undo this dishonest deal then...he gets his crap back...I get my 2000gc back and the stuff just moved there. Problem solved!....Then I will be happy Tom..O so very happy.

Refusing to make an example out of him will make trouble for you in the long run, Tom. By letting him get off with no consequence will give many people the idea its ok to scam people this way on the market. Clearly from what Craft posted, this has happened more than once. Me selling the zillions of radar planes could have made a dent with assets. The issue was military asset value, not just ammunition....I like you Tom, you got spunk and fun to argue with...lol I see why Super like too..lol

I cannot believe you keep this on. There was no high defense index and it did not change much as you perfectly know because everything you moved out was ammunition and it does not change the defense index.

The facts are now clear to everyone.

Hush now JH.

Using radar planes is akin to using just MIBs to get levels. Its common practice. Buyer beware, you should of checked the country thoroughly before you bought, no one would mind taking off secrecy for that. Also the stocks in that country were not of CarlosG's doing, they were the previous owners.

You cant argue against the GM, they have the facts.

Best you settle down and try to rebuild your reputation mate.

Not taking sides here, but Tom, once again, as a GM, it's not your job to argue with players on the forums. The first post here is from you, declaring that something that JHE said was false. Now, even if what he said *was* false, as a player, he can say whatever he wants about other players. If I want to claim that I am Lord of Simcountry, that's my right as a player. If Hezekiah wants to claim that he has a god-given right to rule LU, or if X wants to claim that Y is a douche, whatever - he/they have the right to do so.

You, on the other hand, have no such right. You are not a player in this game. You can't be shouted down by other players or decced on. You can cite statistics, revoke memberships, ban, etc. You can do this because you are a GM, NOT a player. And it's because of this GM status that you have no right to involve yourself in Simcountry politics.

You need to understand something that Jonni and the other GMs seem to fully comprehend - YOU ARE NOT A PLAYER. If you're posting on the forums, it should be to announce an update or help answer questions about that update. You should NOT be getting involved in the politics of Simcountry or arguing with its players. Shit like this is what is causing this game to lose all of its members.

Once again, you can ban me from the forums for this if you so choose. But, if you do, you'll just be proving me right, and showing yourself to be not a GM, but a wannabe player of Simcountry.

Oh, and one last thing: as a player, I shouldn't have to tell a GM what his role is in the game. I know I sound negative, but seriously, man - this is getting tiresome.

Tommi has every right to post in the forums just like everyone else.
Someone needs to police the forums.

I'm not saying he has no right to police the forums. He has every right to police the forums, remove Nazi material, swearing, abuse, etc. He also has every right to mediate this dispute between JHE and CG. What he has no right to do is get involved in SC politics. It's like if God got involved in world politics. It wouldn't be world politics anymore, it would just be God telling us how to run the world.

I understand that unfair accusations may have been leveled at CG. JHE should not have brought it to the Security Council. But it's not Tommi's job to tell the SC that. The SC should be deciding that for itself, in a vote, as it did and would have done without GM intervention.

The main reason for the GMs to get involved in this one, it seems, is because they have information that the rest of us don't have: detailed logs of what was and wasn't in the country and when, relating to when it was sold.

Disputes on this forum are often a case of supposition, without any proof being available as to whether the accused party did or didn't do what they have been accused of. People tend to make assumptions of all sorts, many of which have very viable alternative explanations, but too often we jump to the wrong conclusion. All too often, other players hear the accusation and decide without proof.

When a dispute carries the weight of the Security Council on one side, the other side is disadvantaged, especially if they are an innocent party. On these occasions, if the GMs are able to clarify something ... if they have the proof ... then they are in a unique position to ensure the Security Council does not become a tool for false accusation and vendetta and I, for one, have no problem with them sharing it with the players.

Hugs and respect

Jo

JHE's accusation was made public and was an accusation of the breaking of game rules and not part of game play. Game play was being used to take because of the accusation.

The 2 should be seperate. People play with whatever strategy they choose but the game rules are managed by the GMs and not the SC or players.

Tom was absolutely right to make the post.

if i was talking on the telephone, and some one was talking to me, like john henry was talking to tom, i'd hang up the phone.

lol

Maybe so, Orbiter, but the problem here is that JHE should have been dealt with in private. GMs have no right to become involved in world politics, period.

And Jo - I appreciate what you're saying, and I agree that, in some ways, CG was disadvantaged, but that does not excuse Tom's behaviour. The Security Council should be making up its own mind, not having its mind made up for it by the GMs. Likewise, the Simcountry community should be forming their own opinions of players, not being told by the GMs what to think.

Let's also remember that the only GM to engage in arguments with players, insulting matches, and world politics has been Tom. Jonni, unlike Tom, is and always has behaved like a GM - he helps players understand the game, he talks about updates, he manages the game. Tom, unlike Jonni, has always behaved like a player - arguing over updates, getting involved in world politics, and conducting personal vendettas against players in the form of forum bans.

Read what I said when I came up with the facts.
I said that this should have been handled in private using mail and this is how i tried to handle it.

JHE decided to put it on the forum.

I happen to be the only one here who could see the truth through this scam and I had to clear the name of a innocent player who was accused of inventing it.

Although I think W3C is humbly entitled to an opinion concerning issues around the game, in this case, I was just stating the facts.

This is no case of opinions or choosing sides.

This is a case of one player accusing another of stealing from him while he himself was running a scam to hide the loot.

This case caused us too much work in searching, unpacking many backed up databases and carefully exposing the facts, making sure nobody is wrongly accused. It was half a day work for two engineers.

we are already taking additional measures, to improve logs, prolong the periods data is stored and adding details that will make it harder to hide the loot and make it much easier for us to uncover.

Some of this will show up in the game news in the coming weeks.

W3C is entitled to its opinion, but Tom - you are not entitled to get involved in Simcountry politics. You are a GM, not a player.

JHE did not try to "scam" anyone. JHE thought that he had been unfairly treated and sought to get back at the alleged perpetrator through the SC. *IF* JHE did lie to the SC, it doesn't actually matter - if he wants to lie in a resolution, he is entitled to. It's not your job to prevent players from engaging in the political side of this game in the way that they choose to.

If you wanted to clear the name of CG, you could have done it by emailing CG to let him know that the data logs prove him innocent, and let CG himself post a message on the forums to show his innocence. CG is a player who is perfectly capable of speaking for himself and does not require a GM to argue his case for him.

And Tom - I hadn't actually heard of this "scam" until you publicly disgraced JHE. As far as I am concerned, this is a disagreement between two players that has been made worse by your intervention. Next time, maybe just let things take their own course, or intervene in private? You say you tried to handle this in private, and yet it wasn't really public until you posted this message.

What you were *trying* to do was noble. The way you went about it was not. Instead of giving CG proof and allowing events to take their (player-driven) course, you intervened and inadvertently disgraced JHE. If you'd just stuck to your original plan - private messages - this stuff wouldn't be an issue.

It's all a matter of conduct, Tom. Taking sides in politics, disgracing players, arguing on the forum - it's bad conduct.

I do agree with Josias in his post. TOM WILLARD has a right to discuss in the forum with players. What ACCORDING THIS said is not what I had read in this topic. I am not speaking for TOM, but in previous posts, TOM WILLARD tried to talk about this problem with JHE in private. However, JHE forced TOM to go to public
Quote: " I tried to resolve this with you mailing questions to you and trying to hear your side of the story.
Now you came here to continue the discussion.
fine with me"
I don't see Tom disgaced JHE. Tom spoke in angry tone. This tone could be understood because he knew the truth. Any unfair problem or tricky strategy in the game should be open to public if privacy can't take place

Accordion, I welcome a GM that is prepared to engage with players and to debate game policy and development.

An accusation of breaking the game rules is not part of game politics.

In this case it was solely JHE who made this public and further caused it to be even more public.