The end of freedom of speech. (Golden Rainbow)

"Dutch politician Geert Wilders has made himself extremely controversial for his harsh criticism of Islam and Muslims, made in context of the Netherlands' serious problem with Islamic extremism. Now a top Dutch court has ordered that Wilders be criminally prosecuted, not for inciting violence, but for" insulting as well as substantially harming the religious esteem of the Islamic worshippers."


So he is being investigated for posting quotations from the Koran and showing various videos and pictures. The film in question is called "Fitna". I would suggest a Google search and locate it and see for yourselves.

It happens here.

Just watch.


Jesus=bullshat.


just wait....you'll see

there is freedom of speech but you have to have some responsibility as well. remember the whole no yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre bit? insulting crazy muslims isnt exactly responsible, however true your quotes are.

Remember Theo van Gogh. He was a firebrand murdered by a Muslim for his work.

Insulting people who use a different rule set is not wise. When Palestinian mothers are proud that their children died martyrs in a suicide bombing, they will be hard to beat. People, who are so willing to sacrifice their children, will always beat the Westerner who believes that war should be limited, civilians not targeted, etc.

well no offense aleksander, but i dont see muslims as "invading western lands". its more like the other way around, vis a vis israel.

Alex, you're the only one on this thread who said "invading western lands" so I'm not sure who you're trying to quote there

karff. there was this vibe from aleksandr's post that muslims in general are somehow stronger or more determined in life than "westerners". thats all i was replying to.

So you suggest cowardice as a viable option to avoid conflict.

Did not work for Chamberlin. I doubt it will work in this case.

But the question is why is a supposed secular Democracy attempting to indict a elected offical for his ideas, words, ect.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Freedom of speech is a myth. Say the wrong thing in any country in the world and you'll find yourself behind bars.

Next time you see a police officer, tell him to f-off, and you'll soon see what I mean.

"Next time you see a police officer, tell him to f-off, and you'll soon see what I mean."

I tried this 1 time in Texas. I did have freedom of speech, but the officer also practiced the 'freedom to beat my ass with his stick'. Texas justice is very fast.

After my dust-up he picked me up, brushed me off and said "have a nice day".

Well I could understand if Geert was speaking in Saudi Arabia. He was not. He was speaking inside the Netherlands. A free democratic society. The question remains. What freedoms are they giving up to avoid issues with guests inside their own country?

Islam is at war. It is a religious war for global domination. Despite the fact secular liberals refuse to believe this...Muslims do. So appeasement and diplomacy will never work.

My questions remain..

Why should our societies change to suit another religion?

Why should our freedoms be curtailed for the benefit of said religion?

Why should one religion be allowed to fight with all the others without a word being spoken to point this out?

If Christianity was directing you to avoid insulting their religion I think the uproar would be loud. Why not now?

When preparing for a conflict, you must determine what you are willing to pay for victory, and what your enemy is willing to pay. Then your goal becomes to make your enemy pay more that he desires, while you keep your own cost below your threshold. Then you either have peace or a ceasefire.

I am 27 year old Greek. I think that I am fairly representative of my culture and generation. We have no stomach for any conflict that gets in the way of our personal pleasures. We can get worked up over "Green" issues, but we are cynics when it comes to war and see no differences between the sides. Coffee and the Internet are what is really important to us.

Blow up a train in Spain and they run from the international effort against terrorism. We shout down Denmark for showing cartoons and wonder how they could be so indiscreet. We allow our laws to be pushed aside so that the Muslims in our countries may import Shari'a. We put journalists on trial for "insults."

The terrorists could so easily divided us into little units. We live in fear of our Muslim "guest" workers and we pray to a god that we do not believe in to keep the trouble far from us. The whole EU is full of millions of Chamberlains willing to sell their souls for peace today.

Ultimately, victory will go to the ones willing to pay the greatest price. My generation is not willing to pay much, but then neither are our leaders and governments.

Im damn well ready to make "radical" Muslims pay. I put "radical" in quotes because I personal have only met one Muslim who wasn't violent meanwhile I've met approx 100 who told me they'd kill for their belief that Islam needs to be spread globally and made the law of the land.

"remember the whole no yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre bit? insulting crazy muslims isnt exactly responsible, however true your quotes are."


It IS legal to shout fire in a crowded theater if there IS a fire.

I think the situation with religion is the same as the one about race and gender. I think Christianity, like the white man, commited many inhumaine acts to get what it needed (control) in the past. But over time Christianity, like the white man, turned away from these inhumaine acts and tought a new teaching. One of tolerance, equality and respect. Only when you reach a position of power do you truely understand what it takes to give it up. And if you have not reached that point you will never feel the need to give anything up.
Life then between the two enterties becomes played out opposite to each other. For one is giving up power and the other is using the power given by the otherside to gain power. Giving us the situation where Christianity has become forgiving and non demanding seeking the peace on Earth. And Islam is unforgiving and truely demanding seeking the power on Earth. Two sides of the same coin.

The same can be said about the situation with the white man, the black/asian man and the women in Britain. The white man gave up his identity so the black/asian man and the women could feel equal(no oragnizations that are acceptable to the majority named in his name). But the black/asian man and the women use their identity to gain the power that they need to feel equal(many organizations that are named in their name).
Until the black/asian man and women has a black/asian/woman in power in every country on Earth some will always feel that somewhere some of their own are being discriminated against, which for some, keeps the fight for equality and power for the black/asian and women alive and kicking.
Same goes with Islam. Until every country has sharia law they will continue to feel that their brothers and sisters are being forced by the unbelievers to do the devils work, creating the need to continue their crusade to make sure their brothers and sisters are doing gods work.

So like the white man the western world has two choises. Either let Islam take control and hope that once they have reached the top and had to stop they realise the bad points to their interpritations and effects on others and then change like the Christians did.
Or we go back in time and do the things that we swore we would never do again. Discriminating in the name of identity.

"well no offense aleksander, but i dont see muslims as "invading western lands". its more like the other way around, vis a vis israel."

isreal isnt a western Countiry its a middle eastern country with western influences .

<!-Quote-!>Quote:

The whole EU is full of millions of Chamberlains willing to sell their souls for peace today.<!-/Quote-!>

Sadly a prophetic statement.

@Nix. I appreciate the sentiment behind your statement. But allowing Islam to "take control" and hoping for the best is not my choice. I refuse to submit.

i think you guys are sort of paranoid... the idea that all muslims are hell bent on forcing nonbelievers or other religions to submit to sharia is totally nutty.

Hi Sam AKA Johan. Are you a Christian?

Alex, the other problem is that a Muslim has to live under Sharia Law. Otherwise, as it is written, he is not a true Muslim. Another reason why Islam is hell bent on forcing Sharia Law onto to our/their communities.

Paranoia runs strong in these parts. Most muslims I have met are totally uninterseted in this global jihad you go on about. Doubtless there are many around the world who would like to see sharia law spread around the world, but more importantly there are many who like the freedom they have in the west and do not want sharia law.
The wests weakness is not its freedom for this is our greatest strength, for all desire to be free. Moral corruptness is our undoing. Many would not even see it in themselves, but it is there. In my profession you get to see how rude and ignorant the average person is.

well yeah vali. most muslims dont even know what a global jihad is probably. they're just living their average lives, like most christians, hindus, buddhists, taoists, shintoists, jews, atheists, et al., do.

As it was mentioned already, freedom of speech exists, its not a myth, in a sense anyone can say anything. That there might be consequences is another matter.

Try to come to a local bar and tell men there their wives are ugly fat bitches, their mothers are whores and their kids retards. Good luck and have fun.


Why should our societies change to suit another religion? - Johanas Bilderburg

It should not and it does not, in my opinion. I do not know the details of this particular case, and I refuse to judge from what the news fed to me. I can only speculate, and it seems the judge concluded in these times, in situation which exist in the Netherlands, this sensitive issue is wiser to be handled with care.

After all, our society does almost anything to protect ourselves, to keep us safe. No drinking in a park, no smoking in a bar, finger prints on passports, or drug test on employment. You do not like that? Neither do I, however, it seems that this is what our society "wants".


Why should our freedoms be curtailed for the benefit of said religion? - Johanas Bilderburg

See above.


Why should one religion be allowed to fight with all the others without a word being spoken to point this out? - Johanas Bilderburg

Besides this question being misleading, at least in my opinion, see above.


If Christianity was directing you to avoid insulting their religion I think the uproar would be loud. Why not now? - Johanas Bilderburg

Christianity, as any other religion, is based on dogmas. I'm not sure where do you get the confidence your hypothetical situation would come true, but those who stand up against dogmas, say militant atheists, do not probably care where dogmas comes from.

Are you trying to point out that probably most Christians are more "tolerant", or "used to" bashing than Muslims? Well, that is possible and I can see quite rational reasons for that. Christians do not feel like being discriminated and persecuted in the same way Muslims might feel.


btw Israel might not be "western" country, but it certainly uses "western" weaponry.

One thing is for sure, 'militant' Islam is winning the PR war. They have convinced most that they are the victums and not the aggressors. It is the west that is in tolerant of Islam, not Islams intolerance that the west opposes. Do not look at Islam in the west to see its effect but look at the Islamic world. Muslims in the west do not want to see eastern Islam come to europe. They enjoy their freedom like the rest of us.

I think part of the problem is that we have shot ourselves in the foot with this full blown war with Islam. I recon that if Bush was sitting in his office surrounded by advisers when 9/11 happened, instead of sitting in front of a class room full of kids, who he is responsable for protecting, Bush would have chosen intel, time and SF Units to deal with this age old war between God and man instead of looking to Knock God Out with a single blow, which he would have known would not have been possible. But the kids got to him and he went into Papa Bear mode.

And now, unfortunatly, with front line's being created in Islamic home lands and then the messing up of the world credit system, alot of the new generation western Muslim's who might have been converted to freedomisum over the next 10 years, are now finding themselves not only turning to God for the answers that freedom is now failing to answer, but due to their hardships are starting to interpretate the Koran in the same way as their Eastern brothers do.

Freedom comes with wealth and happyness.
People change when they are poor and pissed off. The Koran and the Old testiment should have a warning on them: DO NOT READ IF POOR AND PISSED OFF. IT MAY INCITE YOU TO VIOLENCE

I am not Christian. I was simply using it for an example of religion dictating free choice.

But since you mentioned it. Christianity evolved past the Inquistition and burning witches at the stake. Its time for the Islamic Martin Luther to change the religion from the inside before its brought down from the outside.