Atheists and Atheism (Little Upsilon)

nothing? i just scientifically quoted John 1:1 ;)

how would you describe DNA? quoting wiki?

how would you explain big bang? perhaps .. let there be light!?

how would you imply that humans originated in east Africa? by telling a story about Adam and Eve?

how would you tell how old Earth is? 6 000 or 4 540 000 000 .. yeah theres "little" discrepancy, but perhaps even 4.54 billion was a little too big number back then.


I don't think its possible to take the Bible literally and derive from it that what is written there is not true because it does not fit todays "state of mind". Its a matter of interpretation, but I can imagine it contains facts, even scientific facts, just told in language used at the time, because it was meant for people of that time not for us.

Then again, Ive never read the book so I wouldnt know, thus yes I admit I'm making it up to fit my argument.

Physics starts with the observation of light too. Time and length are defined by the characteristic wavelengths of elements.

Anthropology and biology does not necessarily conflict with the biblical time line. Adams son Cain moved into a city. There must have been plenty of Homo Sapiens in the garden. Adam was the "first man" because he was the first to have a personal relationship with God as god is understood in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Of course the bible is not a scientific textbook. My point is that when it does touch on scientific things it has been proven accurate. For example it was not until relativly recent in time that it was realized that the earth was a sphere. Many of course said it was flat. If your opinion differed, then you were tortured or killed. But long before '1492' or whenever the 'idea' of a round earth was discovered, the bible at Isa 40:22 mentions the "circle", or "sphere" or however your particular translation reads. That definatly was a scientific statement, especially in those days.

Another example is of something as simple as hygiene. Many, many civilizations had the practice of using excrement in medicine! The people of that time knew nothing about germs, in fact they thought it was beneficial. But the bible described a technique that involved simply digging a hole and marking where you went. And there are countless other things about personal hygiene that it mentions, that by in large, the people around did not practice. This seems very very simple to us in the 21st century, but this was cutting edge stuff back in the day.

This is not all the evidence that there definatly is something about that book! Of course there are other ancient writings that have value, but consider this: There were apparently over 40 different writer of the book, over a 1600yr history, but it still is harmonious all thru. That in itself is quit a feat! What other book has been so persecuted throughout history. In fact it even being illegal to have. No book has been persecuted as much as the bible, and yet, here it is! Not only have their been attempts to eradicate the bible, but today it is BY FAR the most widely distributed book. It is published in over 2300 languages and available to 90% of the world. All this from a hated and 'misinterpreted' book!
To me that alone is amazing. Enuf so that it seems like something I'd wanna investigate. Especially if it can do half of what it claims it can!

What I know about God:

1) There is a God and it isn't me!

That's about it!

A Sufi mystic from the 1300's says it best (imho):

"Even after all this Time

The Sun never says to the Earth,

'You owe me'.

Look what happens with

A Love like that;

It lights up the whole Sky."

-Hafez

Serpent: Columbus did not prove the earth was round. Most scientists, even in the 15th century, believed in a round earth. The Greeks believed in it as well. So did Pythagoras, Plato, and Aristotle. I would not know what year Isaiah was written, but the round earth theory was around many centuries before 1492.
The Bible is certainly not "harmonious" all thru. Just read the 4 Gospels to see the discrepancies. They were telling the story of the life of the man they considered to be the living son of God. Yet, they cannot agree on the details? Even when describing the events of his death, they disagree. Regardless of your faith, you can't read the Bible and say that every line in it is in harmony with every other line in it.
Most early cultures would have had a set of practices that promoted better health, as best as they understood it. I don't think this makes the Bible special. Many books are also persecuted as are many religions. Christian nations have existed where all other beliefs were shunned as well. Most religious persecution comes at the hands of other religions, IMO. Just look at the world today for proof.
The Bible is widely distributed. This is a testament to those who follow its beliefs and spread it around the globe. They do a good job of promoting the book. It says nothing about its veracity. Harry Potter and Stephen King are always widely read and distributed but remain fiction nonetheless.

If people will read Harry Potter in 2000 years from now, which I doubt because to me this phenomena is just a trend or fashion, then I could agree with the parallel to the Bible.

My opinion is that "value" of "memes", basically (units of) information which can replicate and spread, is in their longevity, and in this sense the Bible or Christian "memes" (values), in some areas, proved themselves.

Sure, we can simply dismiss such reasoning arguing something along the lines of brainwashing, illiteracy, use of force, or restricting freedoms which can be true up to a point, however, I believe such methods work only in short term as people can distinguish elementary "good" form elementary "evil" somehow naturally and thus cannot be, in general, imposed on by "evil" indefinitely simply because only few want to be/come "evil".

Which memes are you referring to? Many of the most common memes in the Bible are not Christian in origin and pre-date the Bible. While many Christians today may live according to these beliefs, that does not make them "Christian beliefs" since many non-Christians (like myself) live accordingly as well.

I dunno I'm not believing Christian, but those which are being referred to as Christian values I assume. In similar fashion any other ideas which carry over from generation to generation like .. wash your hands after taking piss is pretty solid meme.

Think of it this way. Try to come up with own ideas, own values, own memes and try to spread them. If they can survive 2000 years, if millions of other people will be able to relate to them, then I think you probably would be onto .. something.


edit: I think we should distinguish between entertainment and philosophy, between amusement and way of life. Only on this bases comparisons of the Bible and Harry Potter dont just match. People dont live by Harry Potter or do they? Again I wouldnt know, never read it, dunno any people who would live by it.

Jesus during the week. Harry Potter during the weekend. Sounds good to me

I have a frying pan that is both round and flat. Here is a 12th century map of the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diagrammatic_T-O_world_map_-_12th_century.jpg

Another one from 1154:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1154_world_map_by_Moroccan_cartographer_al-Idrisi_for_king_Roger_of_Sicily.jpg


You can also claim that the sky is a dome. The sun stars and planets orbit on spheres with disc shaped earth inside the sphere.

I was talking to some people on mIRC about this and I would like to clarify Zentrino because our "argument", if there is any, is likely just a misunderstanding.

Yes the Bible has/had amazing "marketing", however, I was trying to say that I dont believe its the primary reason for the existence of Christian religion. The primary reason (time proved memes) I stated already so I will not repeat myself.

I just refuse to, and dont have any evidence for to believe, that virtually any ideas can be sold by marketing, not in a long term anyways. Not only that admitting to this would make us, humans, look like brainless - heartless dolls which in a sense could be possible, but it would deny what is called as the human nature, where human nature is something what is common to humans in general, and such denial is not in agreement with what sciences, natural or social, tell us about humans.

Though human nature is a topic for itself, I just wanted to make my statements clear.

Zdenek

If you compare memes to genes only a few of them would be necessary to survive and dominate over the last 2000 years. Promotion of literacy is the primary meme. Once you have a ridged script that dictates copying that script the rest of the memes in the script survive even if they have lost their useful functions.

The survival of the ancient Jewish tradition is quite circumstantial. Jews in ancient Babylon became a scribe cast. Their stories survived because they were writing. The bricklayer cast my have had better and more meaningful stories passed down from their ancestors. We will never know. The Judeo-Christian tradition got a second boost from the Roman empire. The Romans tolerated Jewish religion but scattered them after 77 AD. So, Judaism appeared in a diverse set of cultures without having to appeal to those cultures. The destruction of parts of the roman empire did not destroy Judaism or Christianity which was scattered with the Jews.

Unlike Judaism, Christianity added a new meme. Christians adapted to the local culture in order to facilitate conversion. But Christianity kept the copy-literature-meme and the mono-theism-meme.

Christian hordes burned large parts of the ancient literature tradition. Christian text did not have to be better than the competition. They just had to inspire the destruction of all competition.

If you compare memes to genes only a few of them would be necessary to survive and dominate over the last 2000 years. Promotion of literacy is the primary meme. Once you have a ridged script that dictates copying that script the rest of the memes in the script survive even if they have lost their useful functions. - Pathetic Sheep

I agree and that is why I find question:

What to replace religion, as we know it, with or what to reform religion to?

more interesting or important than if there is a God or not.

Ideas evolve, the world is in motion, but some things are to stay it seems. It hard to imagine society, where a smile would imply hostility, and to me its hard to imagine (global) society where "You shall murder" would become the word of God or common (sense) law.

I talk about Christianity only because it was mentioned and its closest to me (my mother is a believer), but we could talk about any other religion, any other system of believes. Would take someone educated in religious studies to tell us about similarities and differences of believes around the world.

Personally I find it fascinating that for example fairy tales are, more or less, the same all around the world, despite the question if they came to existence independently or if they spread from one source.

Zentrino .

Yes the Greeks were the first culture to 'propose' that the world is a sphere. But the book of Isaiah was written approx 250 yrs before that. Of course this isnt the only evidence that I'd hang my hat on, but this was just one example of many.

You mentioned that the bible does not harmonize, and that the four gospels didn't even agree on the mode or method of Jesus' death... Where? No doubt there may be a place where one writer said there was 10ppl on a particular occasion and another said 11...idk. But keep in mind that those writing were not done at the same time or by the same person. Normally if you had 4 ppl telling the same story that they were eye witnesses to, how different would those stories be.

And of course I realize that Columbus didnt prove the earth was flat, but it was in his general time period.

And the example of hygiene that was mentioned, is again only one of many, many practices that the bible mentions. When it is a fact that the other nations and kingdoms around did not practice anything like it. The things the bible mentions is way ahead of it's time in those concerns.

In ancient times Judaism was certainly not a major religion, and neither was Christianity when it began, in fact they were way, way out numbered. At the times when the bible was so viciously persecuted either of the two religions was on the verge of extinction. Yet the book persevered. And as for Harry Potter and Stephen King, yes they make for interesting reading perhaps, but they have not affected life like the bible has. And I would be willing to bet, that the bible has far, far more circulation than the next 10 most popular books in all of history, combined! What other book has been published in the billions, not millions, but billions, and is available to so many people?

I agree that the ideas or teaching in the bible are all 'original'. Many of those same teachings are found in many other good books and religious doctrines.

And yes there was a scribe cast that helped the bible to endure! But thats kinda my point. These people were not originally scribes, they were slaves to Egypt, Roman and a host of other civ's. hardly the foundation for a educated scribe class. If the bricklayer cast had a number of teachings that they adhered to, of which they claim had divine backing, if that was true, then wouldn't we have those writings, if in fact they were divine?

I suppose the main point I wanna make is that the bible more than any book has proven itself many times over. It has truly set itself apart from any other book in existence, bar none!

And I find that most intriguing!

"And yes there was a scribe cast that helped the bible to endure! But thats kinda my point. These people were not originally scribes, they were slaves to Egypt, Roman and a host of other civ's. hardly the foundation for a educated scribe class. If the bricklayer cast had a number of teachings that they adhered to, of which they claim had divine backing, if that was true, then wouldn't we have those writings, if in fact they were divine? "

The stories of a cast of ancient bricklayers did not survive but the stories of a cast of scribes did. There is a reason why we have the writings of ancient scribes and not the writings of ancient bricklayers. It has nothing to do with the divinity, truth, or value of the scribe heritage.

If the stories of a bricklayers cast was truly divine, then it would survive. That could be proof if it's divinity. If it cant survive, well then its obviously not divine.

My point was that they were not originally a scribe cast, in fact they were less educated that any cast, they were slaves! But their message is still here!

That is truly unique.

Bricklayers did not have pens. Or quills.

According to the old testament the first Jew sold into slavery in Egypt was Joseph. Whether he was a scribe or an adviser depends on translation. The description of activity sounds more like accountant.

When the Jews were taken out of Israel it was mostly just the educated classes. At the time of recording on paper the old testament authors had been separated from the uneducated Jewish class for some time.

When Joseph was sold into slavery he was sold as a slave. His brothers hated him and faked his death and sold him into slavery. It was only after he was there for a while did he get any position in society.

And when the Jews were enslaved by the Egyptians, there was no Israel, they were just a bunch of roaming nomads. Again, not usually noted for high education.

If the 'bricklayer's cast' had truly divine stories, wouldn't that divinity make sure those stories were preserved? There were all kinds of civ's that were more educated than the Jews. They had larger classes of those educated. So why, out of all those civ's that were much larger and powerful.... and educated, there exist any books or stories like it has with the lowly bible. None even close!

It does make me curious.

The Gospels tell different variations on a similar story but are nowhere near "harmonious" in their tellings of Jesus' life and death. I agree that 4 people would often give different eye witness accounts of the same events. However, these men were telling the story of the person they believed was the living Son of the only God. Here is what they record as the last words of the person they believe to be God as he died.

Matthew: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Mark: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Luke: "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

John: "It is finished."

If I believed the living Son of the only God was dying in front of me, I think I would listen pretty carefully to what he said. I suppose maybe they were distracted by the commotion and missed parts. However, they all later record that came back to life and talked to them again. His final words to them after dying and coming back to life are recorded as:

Matthew: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,q baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teachings them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Mark: "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." (Some Bibles do not use this apparently but it was in mine.)

Luke: "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high." He also reports that after this, Jesus "blessed them all" and then rose to Heaven.

John: "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." He notes that Jesus appeared twice to the disciples because Thomas was not there the first time. At the end, he says that Jesus completed many more miracles than are listed in the book.

They believed that Jesus was the Son of the only God and that he had died in front of them a few days earlier. Here, they are recording the last thing he says to them before he is taken away. We're again to believe that someone wasn't listening closely enough?
I am perfectly okay with accepting that they reported different things for Jesus' final words on earth as long as we don't also try to say that everything in the bible is in harmony with everything else in the bible.
Many other contradictory examples exist. I think the final words of Jesus are always a good starting point since it makes no sense that they would not be able to accurately record the last words of the person they believed to be the resurrected Son of the only God. Think of it this way: If Jesus came down into your living room tonight and spoke with you, do you think you'd have trouble remembering anything he said, let alone the very last thing he said? No? Someone got it wrong in there and that is okay so long as we're willing to accept that fact.

Your God has forsaken you! Repent! Repent!

Oh, wait... Jozi just had gas.

Sorry I havent got back to this more regularly, my internet has been atrocious recently.

I would like to say that the 'golden rule' (Treat others as you would be treated) isnt the best one I can think of. I think a better one would be 'Treat others as they would have you treat them'. IE I might be perfectly comfortable with hugging a stranger, but since some others may not be, I dont go around hugging perfect strangers. Treating others as you would have them treat you assumes that all people want to be treated in the same way, when this is clearly not the case.

Serpant: Regarding your points on the scientific accuracy of the bible (Zentrino does a good job on this):
1. It was known in anicient Egypt that the world was not flat (http://www.metrum.org/measures/measurements.htm). Where the bible states the earth is flat, it was and is wrong.
2. The bible may mention a fact regarding personal hygine (where to go to the toilet), which was certainly NOT cutting edge, but it doesnt mention antibiotics (which would have been easily harvestable from common fungus in those days) and says that shellfish (and a wide variety of other animals) are 'unclean'.
3. The bible certainly isnt harmonious when it contradicts itself in Gen 1 and 2 and later gives three completely different accounts of the resurrection. The point is, they cant all be right, but they can all be wrong. Is it anymore likely that one is right, or the right lie somewhere between than they are all wrong? Why?
4. Should we investigate every incredulous claim of anyone purely on the basis that 'Hey! if even half of it is true, we're onto a good thing?' No, we look at the claims, and if they perform poorly when we compare then to what we know, we dismiss them and the burden of proof increases.

As for the availability of the bible: The underlying argument you are trying to make is, 'Why would it be so popular if it were not, even if only a little, true?'. First, this is an argument from populism, one can make the same argument for rice being the true food crop, or cantonese being the true language. Second, as PS points out, it is probably more because the bible comes from the meme (a collection of common knowledge (some right, most wrong) from the time) rather than the meme coming from the bible.

Personally, I find it incredulous to think that the bible survived because it was the word of god. The bible has been changed many times since the time it was supposedly concieved. Was it not the word of god before it was changed? What happened to the stuff that was excised (see 'council of nicea'), is it suddenly no longer the word of god? Is it not the word of god until it is next changed? If it were divinely right and perfect, it would be unchanging and be a source of knowledge even today, but it mentions nothing about the microscopic world. Nothing about the scale of the universe. Even the best moralistic statements are far from perfect.

Zdenek (mainly): If the bible is an instruction manual and is less than perfect (scientific/moralistic) than it could be, what is to stop us changing it? If it was written for the iron age, why not adapt it to the modern age? Surely we can do better then this myth and superstition. Also the bible is written (KJV) in 17th Centuary English, not the language of the 'time' (0 CE Palastine).

Zentrino

Could it be possible that those examples of the last WORDS (plural) before Jesus died all part of his last words. For example, if you and I had a conversation and somebody else was listening and they were later asked what was the last things Zentrino said they could say: he said that "Many other contradictory examples exist." Others may say your last WORDS are "I think the final words of Jesus are always a good starting point since it makes no sense that they would not be able to accurately record the last words of the person they believed to be the resurrected Son of the only God." Still yet others may say, "If Jesus came down into your living room tonight and spoke with you, do you think you'd have trouble remembering anything he said, let alone the very last thing he said? " is the last words you say. Do they have to actually say the last 3 WORDS Zentrino said was "accept that fact." If any one of those three people said that they would be correct. In fact it is good that there are several witnesses to the conversation cause then it gives a better picture of what what actually the last WORDS you said. It is simply a matter of viewpoint.

Plus, where is the contradiction? None of those statements recorded contradict themselves. Do those statements change any of the meaning of the bible? A contradiction is where you say one thing is this way, I say it is that way, and there can no possible way we both are correct. If it was recorded that Jesus last words was that Satan the Devil is my God and leader, plus knowing what we do about what the bible says about those two individuals, then now you have a contradiction. There is no possible way that those were his last words! So where is the contradiction? Not different viewpoints of the same thing. Surely you realize the difference. Different does not equal contradiction!

Why has the bible not been changed? Well I would agree that it is not 100% grammatically pure as it was a few thousand years ago, how could it? It was a completely different language than what we speak. But the meaning has not changed. People over the years have tried to not only change it, but they have even tried to rid the world of it, even the ones who claim to honor it. It has been tried and done, and failed miserably.

Well I doubt that anyone here believes I am the living Son of the only God. if you do, please PM me at Nevrondona so we can discuss the gifts I would like for you to begin bestowing upon my holiness. My point is that they were watching their lord be murdered. I think I would hang onto every word he said. So, I would not stop at one paragraph or few phrases in--I would get every word down. It also points out that the Bible is written by men and not inscribed by some deity. Of course it is fallible, we all are.
Read the creation story in Gen 1 and Gen 2 and tell me they say the same thing. They contradict each other on the order of events. Should you believe they tell an ancient myth there is nothing wrong with the contradictions for they matter very little. However, should you believe they tell a literal history, or that the Bible does not say anything in contradiction with itself, this poses a problem.
One of the most humorous (but sometimes frustrating) things with some people of faith is their desire for me to "prove" why their religious text is not true. I don't care if the Bible is wholly true, wholly untrue, or somewhere in the middle. It seems evident it is not the first of those and possible that it is not completely false either. We know some of the people in it surely existed.
I think we should start from premise that if you believe in invisible talking people, I should not have to prove that untrue. That burden of proof should lie with you. I would not want to presume that I have all the answers or know for certain if a god or gods exists. I do know what I can see and feel and smell and touch and understand. I know what I read. I know what I have been taught. I know what I can infer. I know what feels right to me. I know what I think sounds like a logical idea.
I know that, for me, the Christian idea of god does not make the cut for what a god should be like. But, most religious ideas of god don't feel right to me. Living smack in the middle of the Bible belt throws Christianity on me all the time so I reject it easier than other religions. I suppose if I lived in Tehran I might feel the same way about Islam.
And remember, it is Nevrondona on LU if you feel the need to send any holy gifts.

Sorry, but how again do I send gifts? I can't find the 'send Holy Gifts' button.

Its not frustrating to me if anybody tries to 'prove' the bible or any particular faith wrong. Nor do I expect anybody to prove anything about 'invisible talking people.' Just like I do not expect somebody to prove to me the complex laws of physics. That is their choice and I of course respect that choice, and this thread is just an expression of various beliefs and ideas... that's all! But I have come to realize that the few so called contradictions in the bible are not contradictions at all, including the creation account in Genesis. Of course it is unreasonable to think the earth was created in 7 24 hr days. But a day is used to describe a time period. Just like you may use the phrase 'back in the day'. When you really might mean back in any particular time period.

The fact of the matter is that we all live on the same planet, we face most of the same problems, pressures and anxieties. There are many lines of thought as to why and how to handle those things. It is not up to me to decide how anybody deals with those things.

Plus if you are the Holy One, then maybe you can shower blessings down upon us lowly servants! LOL