Simcountry
Forum General GM's need to back off a little (Fearless Blue)

GM's need to back off a little (Fearless Blue)

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Arccuk (Little Upsilon)
06 Apr 2012 12:51 Link
as requested:-

Corporation Cattle
Level Required 1
Low level workers 115000
Medium level workers 74000
High level workers 14000
Low level managers 9500
Medium level managers 4900
High level managers 380
Executives 80
High tech engineers 15000
High tech seniors 3000
High tech executives 70
Total Employees (No Upgrades) 235930

Corporation Weapon Quality Upgrades
Level Required 4
Low level workers 50000
Medium level workers 64000
High level workers 50000
Low level managers 4100
Medium level managers 4200
High level managers 3300
Executives 1100
High tech engineers 70000
High tech seniors 35000
High tech executives 4000
Total Employees (No Upgrades) 285700
S
Star Polarity (Little Upsilon)
06 Apr 2012 20:20 Link
Good - I thought I was crazy. I have watched my total corporate employment slowly grow each month as my population slowly grows, but at the same time it seems more and more corporations are DROPPING in total employment percentages. I was wondering if my efficiency upgrades were somehow wearing out...

Not crazy, whew, not crazy... at least, not PROVEN crazy yet...

John Gilbert
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Redman (Little Upsilon)
06 Apr 2012 20:41 Link
Then you are saying right here that since we have larger amounts of people in larger corporations that any time you adjust anything to do corporations or industries the ripple effect throughout individual countries will be super sensitive and much more damaging to it's economy then in the past when the work force and corporation was smaller and able to absorb or dodge issues.

Profits in our countries are being effected more then before with these larger numbers in taxes, larger supply needs, unemployment compensation, profit transfers and a list of other things. We have the same amount of corps essentially but they are bigger with more people and anything effecting them has a larger impact on our countries.

Profits are much more down in our countries then the 10% you claim. The numbers you give us are not correct as you need only look at your own country profit history to see you are low-balling
us. I'm willing to go as high a 35-50% loss in profit recently.

Given that you are making many more changes then in the past you are rippling the heck out of our countries and world economies. This just adds to the cases we bring before you about slowing down your constant tweaking. Every change is compounding the ripple effects to the sim worlds much more then it has at any point in the past.

Please recognize this enigma. We know you want to keep the game playable but in doing so you are creating much more stormy seas for us as players to navigate.

In such cases it is even more important you release the formula to government spending so that we may help reduce these ripple effects on our countries. Give us more tools to tweak against you constant adjusting.

Regards,
Redman
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nix001 (Fearless Blue)
06 Apr 2012 22:20 Link
Quote 'I'm willing to go as high a 35-50% loss in profit recently.'

Easily I say from whats happened to my main econ.
K
Keto (White Giant)
06 Apr 2012 22:25 Link
I have to agree with redman with at least 50% loss in profit, if not more.
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SuperSoldierRCP (Fearless Blue)
06 Apr 2012 23:07 Link
Profit has dropped massively.

1year ago oil corp made 30M units per year with 770base cost made 23B income.
(times that by 2.96 to simulate Q and double the income to simulate the goods sell for 2times over base) means you went from 23B income to 136(or higher if u factor in production increase).
1year it was not uncommon for a corp to have 150B or more in sales.

---------------------------------------------

now - it makes 18.6M per year with 770base
(same math brings it to 84B maybe 100B if with increase)

Fact is the GM increased costs, decreased profit.

again... fairy tale land
J
Jo Salkilld (White Giant)
06 Apr 2012 23:08 Link
Likewise.

Hugs and respect

Jo
A
Andy
07 Apr 2012 16:09 Link
In the past year profits may have decline by 50%.
You can find examples where it went down by 90% and I can find ones where it is 10%.
It all depends on the product, market situation etc.

the exchange rate declined from more than 200B for a gold coins to 80.

I did not see any specific numbers here that show a declining profit in terms of gold coins.

Numbers will most probably keep declining, gradually, as they did in the past year but the profitability parameters in our economic model and its structure are not changing.

We also have some data on the total assets of the accounts (including everyone in this trail) that show a HUGE increase in the asset value of the accounts.
Some are making more than 1T and up to 4T in profit per game month. Obviously, tuning is not settled yet but profitability will remain, at about the same percentage of the turnover, as it was before.

We could/should shave off a zero from all numbers at once, including SC $ amounts.
Profits would be 10 times lower and so would be all cash amounts and assets.

we have chosen a gradual change and neglected to correct the cash amounts in all the accounts.
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WildEyes (Little Upsilon)
07 Apr 2012 20:29 Link
the exchange rate has only declined, because you allowed it to andy, you set the market price with you're infinite amount of gold coins, it hasnt been the players posting 4000T dollars and 10,000 GC.

Cant we just reset the game get rid of the war levels having a dictation on who you can declare on all worlds if you are war level 3 you should be able to fight any war level player on any world. war level 0-2 should be maintained as new player and new war player levels and shouldnt be allowed to be declared, however the profits of the game dont bother me, I still make a good deal in my countries and CEOs. but the structure and consistency of the game is certainly an issue. it's hard to help players when we ourselves cant keep our own countries in line...stop with all the updates, just downgrade to decemember of 2010 or something leaving the space market intact, and all the complaints will stop. lol

:P thats my 2 cents for what its worth..
C
Crafty (Little Upsilon)
07 Apr 2012 20:42 Link
OK, asset levels may well have remained more or less constant, but the devaluing of the GC and all adjustments has made sc$ much harder to earn. Yes there are a greater number of GC which seems to be your justification Andy but then you need 5X as many now to get an equivalent amount of spending power. When most everything we do in SC is cash based this tops out as a problem.
You must have noticed several players selling GC for real money, is this your game plan? to have people making real money off of the game.
D
David Walker (White Giant)
07 Apr 2012 21:02 Link
Before the days of GCs, the game was a game. There was war and economics. Ever since GCs, the game is about real money, and has been that way for many years now. I was against it at the time, preferring to pay to play and have fun.

Now, players have invested real money and that is what is at stake. I now make real money and use it for a good cause.

@Andy, thank you for interacting on the forum but please comment on the Governemnt Costs thread.

For new players who see declining values and problems caused by this, it must be incredibly confusing. GMs want more players but them bring them in at a time of uincertainty and confusion.

Saving off a zero would have been much better. Everything stays the same proportionately and then IPO thresholds etc. don't need constant manual changing.

How far will the reductions go, where is the bottom? Are the empire penalties being reduce in line as well automatically?
C
Crafty (Little Upsilon)
07 Apr 2012 21:21 Link
David, I admire what you do in your case with making a few quid to help your cause. I have no problem with anyone who wants to go this route, for personal gain or whatever. But surely we wouldnt want everyone to be doing this, well obviously not everyone could do this but extrapolated we could have everyone trying to sell GCs to everyone else. This is what I'm asking Andy. And we need cash to operate, I need a lot with 26 countries and 5 CEOs. Ok, I can make enough, just, to get on with atm but the overall amount of cash or equivalent is falling IMO not keeping track with the increase in GC.
And now Andy is considering changing C3 victory profits to GC as well.

See, the only way out for me is to continue to drastically reduce my military...we dont need such big armies now says Andy, but says I, there are still people (on FB particularly) who are willing to spend lots of real cash to keep large military or run massive losses doing so. Military eats cash as we all know. The big armies still remain. Are we all to be forced into econ and selling GC? I hope not, that seems like an even worse vision of the future of SC than many paint now.

So lets think of making more trade with GCs, (products for one) so reducing need for cash and keep level reards as cash or even make the regular levelling and ranking awards cash, then we could buy GC if wanted or have the cash. And I'm talking of a better translation of the GC to cash for awards than 1 - 80b.

Bring back the cash please!!!
C
Christopher Michael
07 Apr 2012 21:59 Link
"Bring back the cash please!!!"

I totally agree Crafty.

Nothing wrong with selling gold coins like David is doing to make real cash.

But we still need cash to buy most things in the game with......population, materials, etc. and the exchange rate certainly needs to be better in cash's favor.

That, or go to the extreme, and make the entire game GC based (and I don't see that happening).

AND YES, we would really like for you, Andy, to comment on the government cost issue on the Gov.Cost thread....please.
T
Tom Morgan (Kebir Blue)
08 Apr 2012 00:59 Link
Agree with you Crafty, but doubt the GMs are listening. They're too busy drooling over the creation of Space Wars. FML.
T
Q
QueenBikini (White Giant)
08 Apr 2012 01:43 Link
Andy,

I think you are missing a big point. Something that is the most important factor above all your economic models, above all player egos and above the value of GC's or profit. IS THE GAME FUN? And no, right now it's not. Only the players are making this game fun for each other. You have completely lost us and our faith. We cling to each other now.

You talk about players here with high account totals. This is but a handfull of players compared to the game total. In any game you are going to have a certain group that will be at the top. That will never cease to happen. Looking to shave their totals isn't solving anything and is in fact hurting 94% of the players playing.

How is this game fun when you can't make a profit? How is this game standing out from other games when the players fill the forums with every post being about how you are hurting the game? There are so many complaints about what you are doing there is not many post these days without that point in the discussion. Can you not see this?

Why would any new player be attracted to a game where ALL your players are up in arms over what you are doing. How can we have FUN when there is little to no profit being made? What does a new player have to look forward to? Grinding away over numbers and stats?? What, no 1st person shooting? No 3D effects? Be for real here.

You have long time players quitting and thinking about quitting. You have newer players thinking about quitting. Without FUN you have an empty game. You have no sustainability. You have players that play for 3 months and leave. And for what? Why are you taking the FUN out of the game to satisfy a goal that itself seems to be unraveling this wonderful game?

How is it fun when I have to adjust my trade strategies down every month? It's not. The FUN is being taken from the player and that's what most of the anger at the gm's is from.

Regards,
Redman
L
Laguna
08 Apr 2012 17:02 Link
Game money is needed to play freely. Make it easier to earn. Otherwise, this thing is just a frustration test.
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Inanna
08 Apr 2012 19:13 Link
<!-Quote-!>Quote:

Are we all to be forced into econ and selling GC? I hope not, that seems like an even worse vision of the future of SC than many paint now.<!-/Quote-!>




This point is kinda catch 22 because if you make cash using the economic model you are under no obligation to exchange your cash you have made into coins and sell it for real money.

Therefore, no one is forcing anyone into any econ model or to sell your GC.

In my opinion, and as a matter of fact, if you make enough cash to turn into coins, then you could alternatively use the cash to purchase, support, and maintain you army. There is no absolute there. Not sure why this has been said.

But, the amount of cash that can be made is becoming harder to accumulate, so it is a testament of players using the economic model to make enough GC to consistently sell coin, and the fact that money is there to be made. In very large quantities. I have curbed my money making routines as the demand for GC seems to have subsided temporarily. But if people began demanding coins for a discounted rate again, I could just as easily spend and hour or two a day and produce some coins to suply the demands.

The money is there is my point. It can be made. It won't just fall into your lap.

With GC so low, people who war will be less willing to bitch their way out of the game when they can replace a 60 million population country with relatively minimal profits from their main country. In other worlds, losing a country isn't "so" terrible anymore. Before when GC was high priced, so was population, and earnings never bought you as many coins. There is the possibility to mimic past earnings but the GC reward is far greater.

There are some of you ignoring that for Gawd knows what reason.

You can play the war game freely, or you can play economically and become a financier of war, or a sponsor of inter-world terrorism or whatever your heart desires.

Honestly the game is expanding. Cash or GC is not the problem,. The way cash ends up in your hands in your CEO is maybe an issue but realize, you only need less than 3T total profit in a months time span, to renew and pay for your empires and CEOs respectively.

This opens up those retained profits for whatever you wish to use them for. GC and selling, or War and Army. The replication of lost countries is far easier to accomplish in the event of a loss. Back when GC was 600B a pop rebuilding took way too much time and recovery of lost assets was way too painful.

The issue of rapid changes forcing you to stay active and continue adjusting as the game changes, should not be clouded and obscured by profits, GC, and the ability to sell coins.

4, almost 5 years ago, I read in the docs on the simcountry fast track that if you played your cards right that you could earn enough assets on this game and possibly turn these earnings into real life assets.

To be honest, in my opinion, this has never been more true than in the present day of simcountry.

No one is forced to buy GC from players. It is offered as a benefit to the player selling and an added bonus to the players who buy them. Any playter can log in and spend the time it takes to make an extensive amount of GC. This is not limited to a select few.

If more people learn to play the game, this will lead to many players earning more GC, which will expand their gameplay. As more players have enough GC to offer and the game floods with them, players earning large profits will have no choice but to play with a portion of their earnings in the war game. For sport, for bragging rights whatever. As GC are easier to acquire, more players will experience longevity in the game. A portion of their account will become "risk-based" assets or SC capital tan be used to expand the present war game.

Botoom line, the reduction of devalued GC coupled with nearly the same profit capacity for countries to earn money should lead to players lasting in the game instead of having to pay out of pocket several times per year to renew your countries after only 90 days of gameplay, they are out of coins. When they realize they will have to dig out of their pockets to continue playing, they are more likely to quit given what has happened in the last 90 days of their gameplay. This is a definite good thing for simcountry. As well as for the prospect of the war game coming back. More profits + less buyers of GC = boredom which leads to wars. Wars will be much more fun once it will not take you 2 years to rebuild what you have lost and instead 2 years is reduced to 2 months, and the game goes on, no one quits becuase they have lost anything.

This ride has been bumpy, but you all are looking at the glass half full. 30GC to renew a country or empire was tough to earn 2 or 3 years ago, especially with an army. It is less than 3T to renew any enterprise or empire. That alone should make you all rethink your position. Although profits have reduced by %50, the cost in terms of cash converted to GC has be reduced by more than 5/6 of what it was previously. In simpler terms, It costs you 1/6 of what is used to cost to run an empire. With their being 5 worlds you could, hypothetically speaking, afford to run an empire on all five worlds now with the equivalent cash/gc that it used to take to run a single empire on a single world. That is insane. You can't bitch your way out of that. Why would you want to anyway?

Think about that. The problem here is the changes, and how quickly you can adapt to them given the time you have to play this game regularly. Do not mix the two issues any longer, or it may result in you or many players digging into your wallets to continue playing, like it used to be.

w3c can have 20 players who make money and remain to play after many renewals are due. Or they can settle for a few thousand that play the game and pay only account renewals every year and expand this game substantially.

I prefer the latter. A vibrant game with an expanding player base. In place of a dedicated few who are bored of playing and would rather sit in chat and shoot the chizz instead of being assed to log in and click, wondering why they stay to play.

This is a good thing, get past the popular lines being thrown around and see these things for what they really have become.

Bye now, Stop Bitching.
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Inanna
08 Apr 2012 19:26 Link
LAGUNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

I miss you big guy :)

Glad to see you present.

We need more Lagunas around here..
H
Homerdome
09 Apr 2012 09:00 Link
Whats the deal? Too many spankings? WOW, what an about-face LOL.
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Laguna
09 Apr 2012 22:47 Link
WEEEEENNNDDDYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!

I miss you too. That's why I still log in every so often.

Sounds like Homerdome wants to be part of something...
I
Inanna (Little Upsilon)
09 Apr 2012 23:05 Link
Yeah I couldn't make out what he meant with %100 certainty.
A
Andy
10 Apr 2012 21:18 Link
Wild eyes:
Yes, the exchange rate is down because we pushed it down.

It does not matter why it is down. The numbers are lower. Game money increased in value and many prices and work became cheaper in terms of game money.

This results in lower cost, lower income etc. As long as this is generally proportional there is no problem.

you earn a lower amount of SC$ but what you purchase costs much less.
weapons went down by 50% and the numbers you need went down by another 50%.
other products and items are also much cheaper.

Instead of trading tens of trillions we are now down to trillions. Numbers remain far too high.

We could argue about gold coins or about changing the game but it has nothing to do with numbers going down.

We used to have 1000 bombers being lost in 5 minutes in our old wars, and I remember a war with several millions weapons lost. This is ridiculous and those days are over. The reduction in numbers made this kind of numbers old history and players joining the game today think that a trillion is a huge amount. It should be.

The US economy GNP is probably 1T per month. A country with a population of 25 millions could do with a GNP of 1T, a budget of 300B which is 25B per game month. a poor country should do with 10% of that.

Long way to go. I am not sure we will get to this kind of numbers.
S
Star Polarity (Little Upsilon)
11 Apr 2012 06:24 Link
No worries Andy - as I type this it is the year 2952 on Little Upsilon. I am sure by then, a trillion won't be near as much as, what year are you in again? 2012?

Wow, that is really old!

;-)
A
Andy
11 Apr 2012 12:42 Link
No avatars?
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Jiang Hu Warrior (Fearless Blue)
11 Apr 2012 12:52 Link
oh look a new feature.....avatars