Simcountry
Forum General W3C - War Levels

W3C - War Levels

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Yankee
25 Jul 2017 23:53 Link
Yankee is right when he says that it's easy to design a country in such a way that it is simply not worth the effort of taking, he is right that when you have 4 countries on 4 worlds you can do a lot of weapon transfering and build up decent reserves. Here is my 1 question though...

How long does it take for somebody who is not a hard core player to learn all those things?


For anyone that might actually consider it ... not very long.
M
Madoff
26 Jul 2017 05:30 Link
War levels match players based on experience fighting C3s. That match isn't useful. Levels measure player versus C3 skill, not player versus player skill. Levels don't measure the tactics or strategies of player versus player wars. Therefore, levels shouldn't matter for declaring war against players.

For example, the difference between level 1 and level 6 is mostly extra clicking. Levels are merely a good introduction to units and weapons quality. This is why war levels should remain as a tutorial only.

But learning the auto-response of C3s is not warcraft. It requires player versus player wars to gain experience with different tactics and situations, not this or that level. Removing levels as preconditions to player versus player wars would provide needed war experience.

Otherwise, war levels will keep most players in the C3 ghetto.
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Johanas Bilderberg
28 Jul 2017 01:35 Link
I'll n00k all of u.

Beware.
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Josias
28 Jul 2017 01:37 Link
here's an idea, when a war is won or lost, how about no ownership transfer, instead a score transfer, a % of the countries original score.

this way, a player wont loose years of work, and might be more willing to take the risk, and winning a war would improve ones chance of a monthly award.
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Yankee
28 Jul 2017 02:11 Link
That is what a secured country is for ... eliminating risk.
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Aries
28 Jul 2017 04:33 Link
I agree with Yankee. Seems enough things are out there to mitigate risk. What is needed is more reward to encourage the needed effort and associated risk. If similar rewards are available for less/no risk and similar/less effort, there is a problem that we have now. I carrot needs to be dangled outside the confines of unnatural game protections.
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Andy
28 Jul 2017 11:03 Link
I agree that incentives for PvP wars is a big issue.
Currently, there is probably too little there to take the risk.

Increasing war levels after PvP war is won, is open for fraud. How can we prevent it?
I would directly go for war level increase after winning a PvP war if we could know that it was a real war.

For a certain war level we could require certain size of the army, with levels of ammo, at some quality level.
also a distribution of forces that will guarantee a real war.

There must be multiple attacks from both sides, not a war while one is asleep.

For such a system, we could think of major incentives.
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Andy
28 Jul 2017 11:04 Link
This discussion is about the war game.

Once it is done, I will gladly engage in a discussion about another "burning" issue.
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Aries
28 Jul 2017 13:34 Link
I think linking war levels to the ability to fight other players must be re-examined altogether. Flaws have come to light over time with a system where players experiment with or simply follow guides in combating a listless computer opponent and associating that with a restriction on the ability to war other actual players. Some examples are:

-War levels vary between worlds. There is a thread on the forums, and I can find it if I must, where it was simply overlooked that the same player can be war level 4 on one world and war level 12 on another. This player is no less skilled on the first world.

-Computer opponents do not actually prepare one for combating players. Some experimentation with basics can be handy but fighting a computer opponent does not prepare anyone for a skilled player who has experience in actual PvP,

-The gold coin incentives for raising war level are not sufficient to encourage a player with the ability to raise their war level, to actually do so. If this player wishes to engage other players, they typically keep a lower war level. This war level 4ish player with a few lessons from a veteran or actual PvP experience is no less skilled than a war level 11 player.

-In the previous example, this aggressive war level 4 player can engage a wholly unprepared similarly war level player and the victim's ally/federation member with similar ability as the attacker is war level 10, and can do little to help his ally. This is a major blow to federations, which just don't work properly today in these situations.


I would be for making war levels a system to test theories on a computer opponent, and offer the incentives available today for doing so, but disassociate it with PvP war game play. For PvP game play, let players opt in. Maybe there is some incentive to do it temporarily, like there is now, and a bigger incentive to opt in permanently. My incentives ideas were the systems of "Battleground" play and Natural Resources, but, if the GM is receptive, perhaps other ideas will come from the player base.
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Aries
28 Jul 2017 13:57 Link
I would also compare whatever we are suggesting to what we currently accept now. I believe many players believe the existing fraud occurs on Fearless Blue. A read in the game documentation describes a no-holds barred scary place, where a player's desire for a real challenge can be fulfilled.

The reality is that Fearless Blue is just as peaceful as anywhere else. Most players there never reach the war level requirements for PvP participation. Fearless Blue offers enhanced rankings awards, based on the assumption that only the strong survive. No other world offers rankings awards like Fearless Blue does:

1 391 Gold Coins
7 151 Gold Coins
17 38 Gold Coins

Ten countries currently grace that world's hall of fame. Each was declared that world's "best president" and was showered with gold coins. How many of these ten can actually be threatened with a player war? One can.

You ask me? This is a fraud. This is why we lose war players. There was a market for players that wanted a PvP experience. Fearless Blue no longer caters to that base.

I would much rather give those coins to a player who "opts" into leaving unnatural protections and joins a community where players have the power to make their own rules, their own federations that mean something, and make their own diplomacy rather than war levels making those decisions for them.
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Josias
28 Jul 2017 14:35 Link
The war game was pretty much dead before war levels, and nothing since has helped.

maybe all these ideas are just going in the wrong direction.
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Sheepman RGB
28 Jul 2017 14:44 Link
Correct!!! war game was dead before war levels

And they dont do a fuckin thing about multis; im saying the ones who dont cover there tracks and declare war on there main country. Note: Anyone who thinks that someone who makes a new account, to take there other countrys, and for the sake of war, if you cannot see that is a problem in the war game, then what the fuck is wrong with the brain your eyes or the matter of existence that surrounds you?

War game -> cheaters -> not shit being done(ABOUT BLATANT CHEATING)

Like seriously, im thinking about quitting this game since its obvious they are choosing a cheater over me, really? and andy is to busy being concerned with what doesent matter. Fuckin bullshit man, fuckin bullshit.

Only people who play war game are those multis taking there own countrys, that they used war levels to build up! lol gross cant fix that this game just going to keep going in the wrong direction
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Sheepman RGB
28 Jul 2017 14:48 Link
Not saying multi hasent been a problem but really, this game is dead if they cant step up and stop a fuckin mulit. Okay maybe im the only one that thinks this mutli should be banned and not taking action is offensive. But overally this whole thread is really disrespectful the there remaining player base. Players are here giving ideas on a thread you made, and yet believe this is a monotone argument, the dictator sets the topic and we all propagate! Reality is find out or atleast pay someone to read these posts and get a concept from it, instead of playing little games by continually pointing "off-topic" flaws and mispelling names. Really though, just to ignore all this stuff andy you got more hope of fixing the war games with a stick up your ass blindfolded. Its really a sad thing but i cant help but to type it. Little personal, yeah ofcourse im mad at the war game for letting a multi build up, and now they need to "fix" things they "fixed" and broke even more. Now im scared that the next "fix" might just fix this game straight to bit hell.
M
Madoff
28 Jul 2017 17:26 Link
Regarding incentives for PvP, digging deeper into the hole of war levels is not the solution. PvP needs organic incentives.

Andy, W3C has promised for at least 10 years to introduce regional natural resources. That would provide organic incentives for PvP. This has been promised over and over. This feature is best described in item #8 of your work list of January 29, 2009.

On July 10, 2012 you posted some more details.

On February 21, 2017, in a thread about incentives for war, you posted "We also decided to push forward the resources game."
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Aries
28 Jul 2017 21:16 Link
These are my thoughts on natural resources:


-Allow players to choose a bonus for an existing country they own. They must pay for it in gold coins. The bonus only applies if the player has removed all war protections. The bonus for that country, once paid for, applies permanently for that country for any owner as long as the current owner is war level 4+ and has removed all war protections.
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Sheepman RGB
29 Jul 2017 04:45 Link
Agreed minimal war level should be included and no protections should be on, though i would say natural resources should be something as to say more natural occurrence, such as a randomized country no president country the world. Have defenses waves and anyone who declares war on it is in war with each other for the country, and there own included declared on the resource country.

Permeters should be that the resource cannot be taken if there is more then 1 president active on the resource IE; lose country or surrender/peace and withdrawl occupation from the resource. Then the resource must be subdued like any other C3.

Resource after takeover should have a set period of time that the has protection and modifed resource gains provided for a period of time, after period has expired, a new resource spawns shortly after, and your left with a c3.

Note that the resource should be a limited number of supplies, mainly to stop large projections of useless types of items that my not be needed, such as electric power and gasoline, but more inclined so if natural(Oil,stone,uranium) wouldent be as valuable but could be beneficial for supplies of corporations.

I believe that natural resources for a long time has been a solution to stimulate players on simcountry for growth; however its a factor of the amount of work to put in and i believe this might be too much to read, and implement to the game; cant keep "tweaking" the game, i mean you can but really this is turning a bolt left and right. This games problem is that it is obsolete in factors of time, because theres no real supporting updates that could provide more intense C3 experience. I mean litterally look at it like this, Andy my boi, and to say anyone else who can read this; people stopped working called it good at say, building a bridge,building a boat,building a building! if they just "tweaked it" all day long, say lets tweak my house with 2x4s and build a sky scrapers!

Lol id be blown down, point being they had to find new obsticals to come across to satisfy the needs of what was to be built. to fix this game up; make it something not to say massive but atleast sustainable for players, were multi giant house spiders arent coming after me and eating there spouses aka there own countrys they made. I mean really, its sad man, iv seen this before i tell you my boi, this aint no joke here, simcountry dont need to follow any doom path, can keep going good its up to you and the bois, jonni if hes still around need to crack a cold one and figure it out, got to be a way. in the end all, its up to what is believed.
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Aries
29 Jul 2017 05:09 Link
The reason for my suggestion of the introduction of natural resources is to integrate that system with existing ones. For example, there is purposeful malice to owning large numbers of countries. Particularly, more than 10. It is important not to essentially exclude this feature from existing players in a given world who have already settled on an empire size, unless these other systems are like-wise relaxed. Make sense?
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Andy
29 Jul 2017 17:52 Link
Madoff, You are right. The resources game was promised long time ago and was not added.
We have very specific plans on this, and part of it is already done. It could be part of the incentive for war.
we are stretched on resources and must make money to keep the game (and ourselves) running.

Aries, I don't understand the Bonus part. Please explain.

What about war protection for the main country?
What about those who do not want the war game (get war protection, never attack anybody and if they do, war protection is gone?).

What about the idea to make war levels depend on:

1. Winning war against countries with a certain war level. (PvP)
2. Must have weapons and ammo at a certain level for each war level. All weapons, including sufficient numbers of ammo.
In this way, PvP war will mean that the attacked country WILL fight back forcefully. It should include automatic attacks and defense to prevent one sided wars.
There will be no phony wars to get to the next war level.

Large bonuses for high war levels.

We can discuss the resources game when this issue is done.

Done, means a short list of changes to be implemented in order to improved the war game.
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Aries
29 Jul 2017 18:25 Link
"Aries, I don't understand the Bonus part. Please explain."

-No confirmation that the GM was behind the other structure ideas was available. The "bonus" part would be the easiest part to discuss, and the community can add ideas. If the other structure ideas I listed are accepted, I will join the discussion on it.

"What about war protection for the main country?"

-As far as natural resources? I would say that secured mode disables the "bonus" offered by natural resources. Again, the player can purchase it, with gold coins, but it doesn't work unless the country has no kind of artificial protections. The game does not need more econ game incentives (that is all that happens now). Natural resources should be a war inducement.

"What about those who do not want the war game (get war protection, never attack anybody and if they do, war protection is gone?). "

-I would change nothing about current protections right now, which work more than adequately to offer player choice on this matter. The feature to drop war-level protection for a single country already exists (remember, it was my idea). So within the game coding, a player could selectively use Natural Resources in a single country (free from secured mode/war level protection/GC purchased protection) and opt out of the war game with the rest with any combination of those features.


"What about the idea to make war levels depend on:"

1. Winning war against countries with a certain war level. (PvP)

-Relating the war level system to PvP has the problems I posted about earlier. I recommend not adding any link with PvP and perhaps severing it altogether.

2. Must have weapons and ammo at a certain level for each war level. All weapons, including sufficient numbers of ammo.
In this way, PvP war will mean that the attacked country WILL fight back forcefully. It should include automatic attacks and defense to prevent one sided wars.
There will be no phony wars to get to the next war level.

-This is certainly to confusing and counter-intuitive. The goal is certainly to get more and new players into the war game. Simplicity should be the goal and this isn't it.

I think you are putting too much value in raising war levels and associated rewards. From a player perspective, players are just not that interested in raising war levels for the sake of those rewards.


You want an easy way to fix war levels for the benefit of the war game? Do this:

-Add an option for the player to press a button on any world to choose to leave the war level system for purposes of PvP. They automatically raise to the highest war level and receive all associated coins. They can be attacked and can attack any player who has made the same choice without interference from war levels (a permanent change, but perhaps reversible for a gold coin cost that would reflect a premium over the initial gold coin benefit), though secured mode and GC purchased protections still apply. DONE!

Seriously, No kidding. That will fix it.

Want players to earn it a bit more? Then look more into my War College and Battlegrounds idea. They are not as complicated as they sound, but if coding resources are limited for even these simplified ideas, do above ^^^

Honestly, I think we are making it more complicated than it needs to be and if the resulting system is not simple to understand, it will be a loser for the game. I promise you.
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Andy
04 Aug 2017 18:47 Link
Many want the war protection.
You may say they are hiding behind it. May be but they want to keep their assets and their will not just drop it. You may but you want a huge number of gold coins to do so.

I want to increase the risk but dropping it? who will do that and will they fight each other? I doubt it.

Natural resources can add an incentive for war.
We need more incentives.

If losing a war costs money (10T?) fake wars may not be a problem. The warring parties are full members, don't want to lose their money. we can try to enforce some war experience before they get involved in PvP wars.

We must do it in small steps.
We should tune some of the parameters to make it easier to fight PvP and harder to hide.
We can add auto response units that really fight back hard and give players more confidence in their ability to defend.
I mentioned nuclear auto defense if attacked by nukes.

More alerts that send you messages if war is declared, starts, attacks are launched etc.

the possibility to suspend attacks for an hour or two, using your phone
and of course,
the possibility to launch large attacks from weapons at your bases, using your phone.

Maybe add highly upgraded weapons and ammo in sufficient quantity to penetrate strong defense and destroy targets in counter attacks. This will reduce the confidence gap between small and large countries.

Such features will make it easier to defend.
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Aries
04 Aug 2017 19:39 Link
I see the same post of yours in two places I will re-post my answer to the other one below. In the context of this thread, I will also attempt to answer sopmething I didn't address already.


"You may say they are hiding behind it. May be but they want to keep their assets and their will not just drop it. You may but you want a huge number of gold coins to do so."

-If you are talking about me, I have already raised my war level to very high levels on most worlds, raising it the normal way. If you are implying I am making any suggestions for my benefit, look over my account for the truth. I have no shortage of coins, which I use for nothing more than extending entities recently. If you were to check my countries, you would see them in a state of disrepair because I have barely played for about 4+ months now.

I have all the stuff I need and no material incentive from coins to countries to game cash or anything else remains to entice me to play anymore. I could currently embarrass any combination of attackers to my unprotected countries (of which most of mine are) and the most proficient new players in the last 3 years have all learned from me. The only things I have done in that time is offer solutions to things that destroyed the war game (and most interaction between players), write up guides in the beginner forum (all searchable with my game nickname), try to teach players in chat about the game (without making their brain explode), and defeat and chase out some game cheaters (in which I still have no acknowledgement or thanks).

If there exists a better solution to encourage players to participate in the PvP war game, I am willing to hear it and would urge the gamemaster to monitor its success after implementation. Perhaps, based on the number of player countries present in the game that lack any type of game protections, including war levels, gold coin protections, and secured mode. I will offer my view, I can't help myself, but am willing to be impressed, if some months later, the situation, based on that criteria, improves.


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Why would anyone raise their war level, to PvP levels, if there is nothing to deter an attacker for initiating a war on them for little risk?

It is important to look at this from both sides. I don't understand why we are only looking at it from the aggressor side, when we have not solved the problem for the majority of the player base who never raise their war level and effectively opt out of the war game. Allowing attacking nations a free hand to do damage for no risk is a fundamental problem in the war game. Choose not to solve this, and the war game remains broken.

The better alternative is create an environment where federation provide the protection and provide the necessary deterrent to player action. If an attacker can choose what to risk and the defender cannot, it is terrible and un-intuitive to the game experience, creating a real problem for anyone to enter the world of federations and PvP (especially new players).

"The warring parties are full members, don't want to lose their money. we can try to enforce some war experience before they get involved in PvP wars. "

-This was the entire reason for my War College idea, that has been posted on the appropriate forum and pushed by me for years. I can only assume that you had the opportunity to look it over in that time and have found a better solution to prepare players for PvP, though nothing exists currently nor has been announced as forthcoming. War College was an excellent introduction to my Battlegrounds (revised) suggestion as well.

"More alerts that send you messages if war is declared, starts, attacks are launched etc."

-I reported that alerts for expiring entities and for declarations of war used to work, and are now broken. I have reported this multiple times. In the current state of the game, someone can overlook logging in for a few days and lose their empire, without ever having received an email (to either expiration or PvP war).

'Natural resources can add an incentive for war. "

-I am willing to add more to this discussion. I have more ideas, but I am awaiting your comments on the framework I proposed. As you know, there is intentional malice for having a larger empire. One of my suggestions, for example, described how natural resources would enter the game. This would occur through player purchase with gold coins. It is important not to expect existing players to expand their current empires, with the larger empire malice intact, to take advantage of this feature.

My full description of my outline of natural resources now exists on multiple threads, and, like War College, has been there for years. I await comment to see if it is worthwhile for me to contribute further to this idea.

"This will reduce the confidence gap between small and large countries."

-I am somewhat concerned about this language and similar that typically is recited by new players. It seems to come from the thinking that the experience is almost solo-player. That it is always one player against another player. This seems inherently flawed, because my impression is the goal of the game experience is a Massively Multi-Player one. Many solutions seem to overlook that fact.

I wonder what our goal is. Is it to sell this game as an experience where you are alone in the woods playing the game all by yourself or one in which you are part of a community of other nations and players. My ideas always push the later idea, but it seems so many solutions push a single-player experience. That seems fatal to the mission of this game.

This game should push the Massive Multi-Player experience it is meant to be. Remember that countries don't fight countries. Players fight players who should seek assistance from other players and be part of federations. If this is not happening, something is wrong until it is happening. Right now, it isn't happening.

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J
Josias
05 Aug 2017 02:12 Link
if the underlying question is saving the (war)game, then do this.

1. go back to the short term free accounts.
2. drop war levels, but keep secured mode,
3. open all and only new registrations on LO. make LO a non-space travel/trade world.

take the game back to a time it worked, but keep the updated and improved war engine.

as the old worlds empty, you can bring them into this new galaxy, and eventually re-add space

you can even (eventually,) re-add WG to this new galaxy, with modern war levels, as a higher level of protection, new players can choose. While removing secured mode from FB, as higher level of risk.
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Aries
05 Aug 2017 02:39 Link
I understood #2, it is the same suggestion Yankee has.

#1. I am not sure what we are "going back" to. How did these work? It is difficult to for others to discuss something that isn't made clear here. Also, what does this fix in regards to the war game.

#3. I suggested this at one time, at a different time in the game. The worlds are just too sparse now to consider another world with another rule-set. In addition, I am concerned about the mindset that leads to this idea.

Is this to attempt some type of balance between players? I believe this thinking is wrong in what Simcountry should be good at. It should be a community of players who don't have to be balanced 1v1 but seek safety in diplomacy, in federations. Also, if you believe I am being self-serving, check the "Fix the War Game/Take my Account" thread I started. If players or the GM believe my motivations are my own, I will end my account.
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Josias
05 Aug 2017 03:27 Link
aries, i was not addressing you, nor do i have to qualify my ideas to you.

Chances are, the GM will dismiss my idea off hand.

We've been having this exact same discussion, for years. nothing has changed. Maybe we should go back to a configuration that competition thrived in. It wouldn't be right just delete hard won assets.

But what we got, is dead. Allowing old timers to masturbate over their Q of game cash, and piles of gold coins, while the only thing we have to talk about is these useless rants on how to save the game.

Close these five worlds. Open Little Omicron to new accounts. With Secured mode, and no war levels. Let the current game we have, dwindle to nothing. And convert dead worlds to this new galaxy, as they finally die. Then bring back the space trade/travel game.

Doing it this way, your not forcing any one to delete assets. But just excepting that what we have now is hopeless, and starting over.
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Aries
05 Aug 2017 03:42 Link
How are we supposed to weigh the merit of your ideas if we won't know the reasons for them? If you consider your ideas over our heads, then shoot the gamemaster an email and keep it private.