| ToeCutter | Monday, July 13, 2015 - 12:11 pm 
Tell me why do my new corps, which are born with average quality of 180 supplies, still produce a 120Q product in the first year of their lives ? Even without quality and production upgrades, surely they should do better than that or else why wouldn't one set up new corps with just 120q supplies for the first year of production ? |
| Madoff | Monday, July 13, 2015 - 11:42 pm
Even with a supply quality of 180, the product quality of a new corp will be low. It needs quality upgrades and higher supply quality in order to improve the product quality. A supply quality of 120 would provide low profits, if any.
An alternative strategy is not to create new corps. If you have a CEO, you can buy fully upgraded corps. Neglected corps sell for bargain prices. If you have a country with adequate labor and a high welfare index, you can persuade CEOs to move their fully upgraded corps to your country. That strategy provides sweet profits sooner than later.
P.S.:
You posted your question at 12:11 pm and I posted my response at 11:42 pm, on the same day. That means I posted before you did. See, I'm Schrodingerian. |
| ToeCutter | Tuesday, July 14, 2015 - 10:21 pm
Err... I'm sure I remember Schrodinger for another kind of paradox, but, meh...
Yeah, I understand about supply Q and upgrades, my question was why do new corps produce 120q product from 180q supplies for their first year-ish of existance ? It would seem pointless buying 180q supplies for the first year when they produce no greater Q product than 120q supplies would. |
| alocien | Wednesday, July 15, 2015 - 12:59 am
Just because you buy the best Quality of wood, Don't mean you can make a high-end chair. |
| ToeCutter | Wednesday, July 15, 2015 - 10:54 am
Sigh... so Alocien doesn't know either. |
| Letsie | Wednesday, July 15, 2015 - 09:17 pm
Qualify of suplies is a variabel percentage of the total quality. When your upgrades are low and few it had very little influence but the more upgrades you get the more influence the quality of suplies has on the total production. |
| ryanduffy1990917 | Thursday, July 16, 2015 - 12:22 pm
It's probably worth noting that product quality doesn't increase beyond 120 for some time, irregardless of supply quality or the level of upgrades.
This is a wild guess, but perhaps the product quality calculation takes into account past averages of supply and process quality - or something along those lines - to prevent big changes every month? Could be fairly off track... |
| ToeCutter | Thursday, July 16, 2015 - 03:27 pm
Meh, yeah Ryan, you are probably closest to the heart of it. It's just another niggly thing that you notice about this game, all the little things (like a years 120 to 200q product difference),that disappoint me in the design philosophy. They're all geared in the games favor whereas a user-friendly game would have them geared in the players favor.
No big deal, just .. why ??? |
| alocien | Friday, July 17, 2015 - 02:19 am
" Yeah, I understand about supply Q and upgrades, my question was why do new corps produce 120q product from 180q supplies for their first year-ish of existance ? "
That is what i was reply to.
And really it makes sense. your Population hasn't made that product in that Corp, so they won't know how to make it the best way. I remember having a talk with Andy about this before. But i didn't think it was implemented. |
| Dubhthaigh | Friday, July 17, 2015 - 10:29 am
I think the crux of the question here is, is it worth buying higher quality supplies and purchasing upgrades for the first 12-14 months of a corporation's life?
If the product quality increase is delayed because the calculation factors in past quality levels to avoid instability, i'm guessing the answer would be yes.
If the product quality increase is delayed because there's an expertise acquisition period (Alocien's idea) then i'm guessing the answer would be no.
Anyone have graphs for a new corp that hasn't been upgrading or buying high quality supplies? xD |
| Orbiter | Friday, July 17, 2015 - 02:10 pm
dub, a second question, is it worth micro-managing to go back and change supply quality?
i suppose it would be easy to do, set your starting quality to one thing, build a dozen corps, wait a week, then use the corps page to adjust all your corps to the desired quality, your existing corps would not be effected, just your new ones. how ever, if you are constantly building corps in a CEO, is it worth it to keep track, and keep up?
for me, the answer would be no. i just build, and wait, and before i know it, the corp is working fine |
| Dubhthaigh | Friday, July 17, 2015 - 04:36 pm
Personally i'm not adverse to a little micro-managing :P
But you're right, some are, especially if the justification/benefit is speculative - in this case doing so might even be counter productive, if my hunch is right.
Saving c.35% on corp supply costs for the first year or so shouldn't be sniffed at though... |
| ToeCutter | Friday, July 17, 2015 - 04:43 pm
Yes yes yes, all your answers make sense.
But as I asked before, and ask again, WHY is this delay implemented ? I can't see the stability theory myself, if there is no history to factor in then calculate from current supply quality, hardly a programmers brain twister.
What a load of unadulterated rubbish about the corp not having experience in producing quality product. This is not how a company would work in real life, it hires good people and uses good tooling, than gets a brand image. To think the game model incorporates any 'experience' I would suggest implies a loss of focus on reality.
Orbiter, yep, I just wait too, but I raised this topic to get opinion, which I'm glad it is 
Dub, you're too sensible and logical ;p |
| alocien | Friday, July 17, 2015 - 06:21 pm
Huh, so i guess the Business Management and Human Resource class i took both lied to me then. :-/ |
| ToeCutter | Friday, July 17, 2015 - 07:07 pm
Yep, you would have probably done better to take a hair-dressing course Alocien. Or media studies... |
| Dubhthaigh | Friday, July 17, 2015 - 07:42 pm
Hey, I did Media Studies and it was very taxing! :P |
| Andy | Monday, July 27, 2015 - 05:39 pm
There is no limitation on the quality of the product in the first year or years a corporation exists.
the quality, as noted here, depends on the weighted average of the raw materials (materials that are used in larger quantities or are more expensive, have more influence on the average) and it also depends on the upgrade level of the corporations.
The formula has a loss percentage in it and if the upgrading level is very low, it could end up lower than 120. The minimum quality is however 120.
So it might look like the quality is stuck at 120 for some time.
In fact it is lower, maybe 100, and increasing slowly, but it will show 120 until the number becomes larger than 120. |
| ToeCutter | Monday, July 27, 2015 - 11:19 pm
So Andy, you are saying that you need to upgrade just to get to normal (no 'loss percentage' effectively).
Why wouldn't a non-upgraded corp use the weighted average of its' supplies ? As it upgrades it's efficiency and quality it produces a superior product.
It's not really a big issue for me, I just see this negative game design in many small details of the game. It seems weighted in the games favor and not the players. I think this doesn't encourage players or make it seem user friendly. |
| Dubhthaigh | Monday, July 27, 2015 - 11:39 pm
I definitely see your point in terms of user-friendliness ToeCutter, at times the mechanics seem miserly, almost hostile.
That said, a 'glass half full' kind of interpretation might read that corporations with a very low quality - of less than 120 - receive the income and benefits of a 120 quality production process, even while said corporation is perhaps new and dutifully handing out wads of cash in return for upgrades and increasing the quality of its raw materials? |
| Andy | Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 05:01 pm
the minimum quality is 120 so what you purchase is also 120 or higher.
so having the output at 120 is not very surprising.
You can produce products of high quality even without upgrading if the quality of the raw materials is very high.
but quality will go even higher if the corporation is upgraded. |
| ToeCutter | Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 09:45 pm
Hmm, that's what I'm saying Andy. without upgrading, but buying high quality (180) raw materials, still results in a 120 product. If I were to buy 120 raw materials I would see a 120 product too, is that not so ? Does this seem correct to you ?
And Dub, there is no less than 120, that is the bare minimuum, so although I see your argument, it isn't valid. |
| Dubhthaigh | Wednesday, July 29, 2015 - 12:42 am
We are basically just dancing around the same point from different perspectives.
The artificial grounding of a corp at quality 120 while it develops does seem to lack finesse though, especially as one would assume (not knowing the quality formula) the supply quality should bump it above that fairly quickly... |
| ToeCutter | Thursday, July 30, 2015 - 10:46 am
What do the experienced econ players reckon the point of diminishing returns is for raw materials in non-military upgraded regular state corps ? |
| ToeCutter | Thursday, July 30, 2015 - 06:04 pm
That is, when does (at what quality) the cost of buying higher quality raw materials to produce higher quality goods outweigh the extra sales income ? |
