| thewhy | Friday, October 18, 2013 - 03:48 am 
as the current system is setup now the money you have in your investment fund collects flat interest the larger your principle the larger the interest payments (like a loan) the dividends are put into this principle and increases its size (and interest rates) rather then actually being paid out like in real life.... i think we should simplify the system and just get rid of the interest rates and substitute them with dividend payouts like in real life.... does anyone see any problems with this? my IF pays 2 billion in dividends monthly which i assume should go into the pockets of my citizenry but instead goes on top of the principle.... im left with a meager 50 million payout for my 7 trillion dollar investment fund.... |
| thewhy | Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 12:45 am
bump |
| XON Xyooj | Wednesday, November 6, 2013 - 09:49 pm
the first problem i see is that dividends are from profit earned while interest earned has no relation to the output.
therefore, players who are very bad at earning profit will kill their IF and players who are good at earning profit will earn lots of money for their IF.
if the IF in SC is similar to earth, it's supposed to be invested in safe securities?
i would prefer an interest base concept, with the interest rate to be at my discretion as the manager of the fund. if so i would invest the IF money back into my entities at say an interest rate of 1% per game month, instead of the current rate or investment in other players' entities that i have no control over how those entities will perform.
anyways, i have not look into the IF for each of my countries, where can i find out how much money is in it? |
| thewhy | Wednesday, November 6, 2013 - 10:03 pm
thats kind of the point xon good players do good and bad players do bad.... no investment is safe... and it is possible to connect with other players and work with them to ensure your investments are safe.. for example i have invested greatly in the corps of one of my allies and he has invested in me therefore it is in both our interests to ensure both of us are making good profit through the use of tax rates salaries and making sure corps arent arbitrarily closed |
| XON Xyooj | Wednesday, November 6, 2013 - 10:22 pm
the existing loan market in sc seems to be safe, so i want the option to dump all my IF money into this market at my own chosen interest rate as i have posted in my "automation" thread. i want to have control of where i want to lend out these IF money. the current loan market does not allow me to choose who i want to lend my money to.
collaborations with other players is great too, and i would invest on players who i know will value my money too. |
| thewhy | Thursday, November 7, 2013 - 02:21 am
well what im saying is take the IF off the 3% interest rate and collect the dividends instead its "riskier" but more profitable.... perhaps you could make a dynamic where the more dividends collected the more your population invests in the IF rather then just having it as a percentage of your nations salary income |
| XON Xyooj | Thursday, November 7, 2013 - 07:45 am
@thewhy,
per the docs, the IF is automatic unless you want to manually buy and sell shares? what other investment vehicles are for this fund other than shares?
i rather prefer the IF to be invested according to my own discretions, whether that be buying shares or as loans to my countries/enterprises.
most advanced countries on earth allow you to invest your retirement funds at your own discretion, why not on sc too?
AGAIN, dividends are much too risky because how much depends on who is running the corps or how the whole economy is doing? Interest is safer, but should not be 3% which barely at inflation (if there is such concept in sc)?
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| thewhy | Friday, November 8, 2013 - 01:27 am
well you can loan money anyways with just the cash in your treasury the IF is special because you can invest in shares... If we let each individual simperson invest as they pleased it would... well that wouldnt happen because its absurd... the IF adds another dimension to the game... and in real life it is possible for a government to manage its nations retirement funds..... dividends really arent risky at all i can tell you 10 players with lots of corps who are going to be here for a long time and are going to run profitable corps... i can tell you that AMU corps are consistently going to make 2 billion a month and are invariably located in mature premium nations... i can tell you if you raise tax rates the value of corps will go down and if you lower taxes corps value will go up... its a game very mechanical and methodical and not very risky..... no CEO is going to be caught snorting coke causing his corporations value to tank like in real life.... if you want interest you can invest your own money from the treasury for a higher rate then that of the IF.... if your only solution to the nerfed IF is to raise interest rates then basically your not making the IF any more useful then regular loans of trillions of dollars you can make once you finish raiding a c3 |
| thewhy | Friday, November 8, 2013 - 01:30 am
and as we all know if you have an empire or a CEO you can invest in your own corps which seems pretty safe to me |
| XON Xyooj | Friday, November 8, 2013 - 11:17 pm
@thewhy,
maybe i should be making AMU corps, but doesn't corp's profitability depends on the world you're in?
i'm just saying that i trust myself more in managing my own money. in sc, i am the government of my entities (countries/ceos) so there is no other government for them.
the corp tax rate in sc is just a tiny window for us players to decide how much money we want from the corps in our country. i still don't know if the profit sharing % in sc comes off before the corp tax or after the corp tax is applied, do you?
i don't want a 12% interest rate base on the rotation of earth, i want at least that rate on the rotation of the sc world i'm in.
again, the interest rate charges to the loan principle is not depended on how well the corp will be profitable. even if the corp is not profitable, the interest has to be paid. but if it's dividends base, then when the corp make a loss there is no dividends to the shareholders.
yes, i want to invest in my own empire and ceo. i don't want my IF to just randomly invested in players that would/could be my enemies = digging my own grave.
IF should not just be to buy shares. it must be at the discretion of the president/player on how the money in here is to be invested. |
| thewhy | Saturday, November 9, 2013 - 03:55 am
Xon im not really sure what your getting at but the current system is nerfed and pointless and i dont have a problem with the so called "risky" investments because even if they were risky thats part of the game.. some people lose and some people win |
| thewhy | Saturday, November 9, 2013 - 03:56 am
why would you manage a IF when it pays a constant 3% interest? you could just make regular loans and get the same return |
| XON Xyooj | Saturday, November 9, 2013 - 06:11 am
@thewhy,
as far as i've experienced so far, this isn't a zero sum game. in order to be such, there are winners and losers.
that's 3% is why i don't bother worrying about it because the game parameters don't allow me to do something else with the money. |
| "King Louis Emunne Thermopalis Gernaldi | Sunday, November 10, 2013 - 05:43 am
XOn who want total control over the loans market and I want total control over my IF and the ability to turn it into a sovereign wealth fund and dump all my extra cash in it. |
| XON Xyooj | Sunday, November 10, 2013 - 09:21 pm
@emunne,
i don't understand all these baby steps and restrictions.
it should be really simple process to allow players to earn interest money on game year, not earth year.
i have trillions in some of my countries, yet i am not allow to borrow from one country to another country, yet i am forced to automatically given loans from other players' countries.
a wealth fund might be great for the extra cash, instead of them just siting in my countries/enterprise earning nothing.
this game needs a dimension to the econ side. |
| Erin | Monday, November 11, 2013 - 07:17 am
you can send as much money from one country to another or corporations for that mater. Go to direct trading and transfer sc from nation/enterprise to account then to the nation enterprise you want to give it to. ...or you can buy more cash from andy and put it where you want it. |
| thewhy | Monday, November 11, 2013 - 08:16 pm
because making it a game year would cause the interest rates to go way up and noone would take loans anymore.... you would take a trillion dollar loan and in 3 days you would be paying 130 billion plus the principle..... the interest on a trillion dollar loan would be more then the whole income of a nation in that same time period |
| XON Xyooj | Monday, November 11, 2013 - 09:01 pm
i don't want to just keep transfer from my rich entities to carry the weight of my poor entities, @erin,
i have been doing that for long time and i want every entity to carry its own weight.
as existing, the game parameters automatically give loans to my country corps even if i still have trillions in my country's account or my personal account; and these parameters also automatically give loans to my enterprise without even bother whether i want or not want the loans because i have GC and SC$ in my personal account which i could loan to my struggling entities.
i'm simply asking that the game allows me to borrow from myself (my account) or my rich entities back to my poor entities which i can charge a fee on (interest rate). |
| XON Xyooj | Monday, November 11, 2013 - 09:21 pm
@thewhy,
everything should be base on the rotation of the planet the loan is taken from, whether be fb, kb, gr, wg, or lu.
i'm all confused on the rotations of this planets anyways because the game docs are screw up with mixture of info.
let's say that my planet fb turns 6 game months every earth day. that means in 2 earth days, will be 12 game months on fb (that's one year).
if i borrow a 100B loan to my entity or someone else at 12% interest rate, then every game year the interest charged would be $12B SC or $1B per game month.
some of the problems with the existing loan program include that it is base earth year, you have to pay a penalty fee if you pay off the loan earlier than its due date, you are automatically given loans without your permission, and you cannot make loans from yourself to your entities (countries, enterprises, corps).
on earth year, 12% for fb is almost meaningless in that the loaner earns almost nothing and the loanee pays almost nothing. and i don't think w3c even make that the payment for each game month is interest plus principle....it's simply just that you pay the interest every game month/year then at the end you pay off the principle when it is due. this is a simplify version base on 1980s technologies because must be too difficult to put in a loan equation into the game parameters?
i want a credit line concept to be part of this loan program, so that of my 100B loan on an interest rate of 12% game month, i could payoff any amount i want when the entity can afforded. credit line charge you on the outstanding balance of what you owe. so if i took out the loan in January, i would pay $1B interest for my January usage of the money. if i earn enough to pay off say $50B of the loan at the end of January, then i would only need to pay interest on the outstanding balance of $50B in February or $0.05B. |
| thewhy | Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 03:15 am
well get your own damn thread XON
in real life you do this
Invest in company
Reap dividends/capital gains
i think the dividends should be paid out to population instead of this made up interest rate of 3% (there should be an option to reinvest dividends into the liquid cash of your IF)
Capital gains should be reinvested into IF (when you sell them)
maybe there should also be an option to cash in on capital gains and such with a feature allowing a payout to citizens from money in the IF
this money eventually finds its way into the income tax revenues
could probably add some other affects in as well.... entwining welfare and the IF as is the case with many features of the game |
| thewhy | Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 03:24 am
i dont think this change would affect the overall structure of the game and it would put "econ" players a little more on par with warlords |
| XON Xyooj | Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 08:12 am
i'm bumping yours for the same goal as mine  |
| thewhy | Monday, November 25, 2013 - 06:15 am
Bump.... anything to contribute andy? |
| johndoe677 | Friday, December 20, 2013 - 12:26 am
bump |
