| FarmerBob | Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 08:49 am 
I have granted you top billing, sir, as your profession is much more prestigeous than mine.
So how was the cruise? My turn to be jealous as I couldn't get my wife onto an aircraft carrier with a gun, sedatives, and a straight jacket. The woman is absolutely terrified of the ocean.
To continue where we left off. I completely grasp your view of flying. I know my dad would have loved for his son to have been a pilot like himself, but that certain instinctual grasp of speed and space necessary for a competent aviator is utterly lacking in me. I used to hate when the airdales would get their monthly NOE time in prior to a jump. Puking paratroopers in an enclosed space is something I will never miss.
As to your domestic arrangements, who the hell has the right to judge anyone for that sort of thing? If the two of you are happy, that's all that matters.
On being a honest-to-God, for-real, gettin' paid and everything, writer: you have my undying respects. Having started and aborted numerous attempts at a novel over the years, the ability to write is something for which I have tremendous admiration. My own style might charitably be termed "pedantic". I've always felt that I wrote like Charlton Heston spoke. Know what I mean?
Read your posts in the economic debate and we are of like mind. Common sense is the absence of slavery to ideology in my view on such matters. No one has figured it all out and invented the "perfect" system. The argument is lovely, however. Truth most frequently lies somewhere in the middle.
I would love get your take on the profession of journalism in all its forms and formats. Having served through the 70-90's, I reserve that special military distrust and revulsion at the American media, so I won't even pretend to be unbiased on the subject.
At any rate, wonderful to have you back safely.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Bob |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 06:22 pm
Wow, getting top billing is scary! My preference is to fly below the radar, that way people are always underestimating me! 
It's a shame your wife has a fear of the ocean. If it were just a matter of motion sickness I'd be able to convince her it's not a problem on today's liners. But a phobia is a horse of a different color. I have a touch of that myself. One of the things Julie has been at me for years to do is skydive with her. I see NO reason to hop out of a perfectly good airplane. Hell, I have to close my eyes on a roller coaster!
With regards to writing, it's something I've always wanted to do. Like you, I started, and trashed, dozens of efforts at novels. And hundreds of short stories. Charlton Heston was among my favorite celebrities, but I have to agree with your assessment of his conversational skills.
Like to make a suggestion. Rather than trying to be the next Charles Dickens, why not start a journal? Put in your family stories, your memories of your growing up, your life experiences. Things like where and how you met your wife, etc. You may never actually publish it, but it will accomplish several things: It will be incredibly easy to do (you won't need creativity, as it will be stuff you experienced firsthand), it will put on paper all the rich history of your family (which might otherwise be lost forever), it will provide an insight for future generations of your family as to how things were in Great-great-granddad's time, and a hundred years from now historians will DROOL over it because so few people write down all the everyday events in their lives. In example, the thoughts of Bobby Lee and U.S. Grant are certainly important, but the real history comes from the guy sitting around the campfire writing home the night before charging the hill at Fredericksburg. BTW, that operation should be required reading for every cadet at the Point as to how NOT to plan a battle! What a disaster.
Keep your media opinions intact, I have the same feelings. In fact, on the cruise the only news station available on TV was CNN, and I spent so much time hollering at the announcers that Julie finally wouldn't let me watch it for fear of complaints from the people next door.
My writing focuses very little on politics, although that's one of my favorite debate topics. I deal mainly with history and travel, although I will branch out into other subjects if I have time and some interest. The majority of my sales are to online pubs (God bless the internet!), but as my "portfolio" increases it has become easier to sell to hard copy magazines. Lots of people are turned off by the fact that the pay is not great (the most I've ever received from any one article is 100 bucks, the average is 25), but considering I can knock out a 2000 word article in about an hour and a half including research time it pays.
Need to close this up for now, have to pick Mom up. Thanks again for the kind words and thoughts. Think about that journal. Writing fiction and being successful at it is a MAJOR bear, and if your name isn't Tom Clancy it's almost impossible to get a publisher to take you seriously.
Warm regards,
JMR32 |
| FarmerBob (Little Upsilon) | Friday, July 11, 2008 - 07:51 am
Robert. An excellent suggestion. The only obstacle I must overcome, is my tendency to intellectually step back and look for the "big picture." I believe your assessment of the future interest in the minutae of life is spot on. Getting myself mentally disciplined to stay on topic, as it were, will be the main challenge.
Knowing myself, my thoughts would would quickly degenerate in to the philosophical pontifications of yet another egocentric old fool. A wonderful idea ,nonetheless, that I shall put into practice when things calm down around here.
As to your humility regarding your profession. Rubbish and other comments. You are paid for the expression of your thoughts which is a tremendous accomplishment for anyone. We all have opinions as well as defecatory orifices. You have managed to find someone who will compensate you for yours. The opinion, that is. LOL The other we "don't ask, and don't tell", I believe.
Whether on travel, the weighty matters of the world, or the mating habits of Norweigian Chipmunks, your insights have commercial value. My sincerest compliments.
I hope your family's medical issues are resolved to positive ends in short order. We, in the FarmerBob household, are under the same stresses this summer.
By all means, take your time with replies and at your leisure. I generally only check in to SC in the wee hours myself for a short while due to present circumstances.
Thanks again for push in a productive direction and I look forward to hearing from you when you can spare a few minutes.
Warm Regards,
FarmerBob |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Friday, July 11, 2008 - 06:56 pm
FarmerBob,
I used the journal idea myself. It helps you to develop a "style" of writing. As with everything else, the more you do it the better you get. And I wouldn't worry too much about the obstacles or staying on topic. I have the same problem, in spades. My mind moves at light speed while my mouth and hands move at regular speed, so I'll be in the middle of a discussion and I end up "tangentializing" (that's a Bob original)into an entire new area.
Not to sound like an obnoxious professor, but use your tendencies to your advantage. Break your journal down into sections. Have a section for the "big picture". Have another for your philosophy. So on and so forth. I somehow doubt you are an old fool. And ego is, contrary to popular opinion, NOT a bad thing! Every successful person who has ever lived has KNOWN they were good. If you don't have the self confidence to stand against the tide you will be buried. Most of the human race would rather drag all those around them down to their level instead of working to rise to new heights. Cynical, but unfortunately all too true. Try branching out into something new sometime and just listen to your friends and family come up with reasons why you can't,why it won't work, etc. Ego becomes bad only when it develops into megalomania or some such.
Better get off the soapbox here. Just to summarize, think of it in terms of your service time. Every unit you ever commanded had it's own strengths and weaknesses. Your job was to maximize those strengths and minimize the weaknesses. It works the same way in life.
Things on the home front are progressing well, thanks for the thoughts. Hopefully your situation will also stabilize, my prayers are with you and yours.
Mating habits of Norwegian chipmunks? I'm going to have to look into that! Somehow I just can't picture Alvin being horny!
One final note: If you are interested in the world situation, with an outlook that you will never see on CNN (or even Fox News for that matter)you might check out a website called 1913intel.com. It's one of my regular sources for out of the ordinary information. A few examples of the info I've picked up:
(1)They had an article about the Air Force nuke transfer mistake 6 months BEFORE it became headline news. Within a week of the actual occurrence.
(2)Did you know that China is planning a massive damming project on a river which runs into India that would effectively leave millions of Indians without water?
(3)A few years back South Korea surveyed the cadets at their version of West Point, and over 50% listed the US as the country's greatest enemy. The survey was repressed by the government and only recently released when the Commandant retired and went public. He blames the SK education system for improper portrayal of history, he claims textbooks are portraying the US involvement in South Korea as an imperialist maneuver.
Gotta run, hope I wasn't too abrasive. When I jump on that soapbox I sometimes forget myself!
Warm regards,
JMR32 |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 01:16 am
On a completely different note, I understand that your wife is Italian. Unfortunately about the only words I know in the language are "buono sera" and "grazi".
Visited Venice back in the 90's. Very interesting city. One of the things I thought unusual were the shops. Big signs in the window of a lot of them "Only enter to buy". They displayed their wares in the window, along with pricing, and if you walked in you were expected to purchase. Gives meaning to the term "window shopping".
I also got snarled at by a clerk for wanting to buy a ticket for an attraction with a bill way too large (apparently). Went up to the window, laid my Lira down, he said something, I mimed that I didn't understand, he said loudly "smaller", holding up the bill. When I couldn't come up with anything smaller he went into a rant. I THINK I heard the word tourist in there, and I'm sure I didn't want to understand the rest. But I got my ticket, and a WHOLE LOT of small bills in change. Sort of like when you use a twenty to pay a dollar fare on the turnpike, you'll get 19 singles in change from some of the folks.
But all in all, I enjoyed my time in Italy. Some really outstanding food to be had there.
'Nuff for now. Things are copacetic around here, so I'll be heading back home on Monday. Have a great weekend!
JMR32 |
| FarmerBob | Monday, July 14, 2008 - 03:45 am
Thank you for the reference to that most interesting site, Robert. While I distrust most "news" outlets as sources of objective information in general and those on the web in particular, a private source news blog as this one is intriguing. The documentation of this individual's intel take is broad and diverse, and he seems to put the pieces together quite rationally. I smell a current or former intel weenie at work here. Will have to monitor his activities over the long haul to see how his track record pans out.
LOL at your Italian experiences. The French have nothing on them for rudeness. The only difference I ever noted was that they remained obnoxious even after you showed them the money.
Italy is a strange country. The cities can be as different as night and day, especially regarding Americans. Forget about the linguistical challenges. Every 20 steps is a new dialect. Half of the country can't comprehend the other half, and even Sicilians can't understand themselves.LOL
My wife is from one of those tiny little "God Father" villages outside Catania, Sicily. I met her in Naples, however, when she was at "university". Have to tell you that whole story sometime.
Don't fret about "lecturing" me. You have the exerience and expertise as a wordsmith, and answered several questions before I could ask them. We'll get into this in detail when I start this journal project. Did you catch the blog feature W3C is proposing? Might have to make use of that.
My personal fear is to not become a "joke" like the many retired old fools I catch on the news as Expert Consultants. They know damned well that they don't have the full intel picture on any operation to make any sort of informed commentary. I was so dead wrong myself prior to our latest gulf adventure, I still can't believe it. I was telling anyone who listen at the time that we weren't really going into Iraq. Sadam must have been getting squirrelly and we were putting forces in theater as a deterent while we focused on Afghanistan was my line. I simply could not believe that our top leadership would be dumb enough to get us into a two front conflict when we barely had the force levels to handle one. Lost $100 to a golf buddy when they kicked off. At any rate, retired Colonel's tend to be a sad lot. Many are pissed off at never having gotten their star and feel the need to prove to the world what great generals they would have been. Pathetic. I would just hate to join their ranks. Every soldier has had experiences, some have thought a lot about them and tried to draw forth lessons, others just use them as an ego trip. Ever read Hal Moore's book? They even made a halfway decent movie from it. Couldn't believe it. They didn't emphasize some of Moore's most relevant points, but for Hollywood, it wasn't a bad effort. Got to shake the General's hand once at a Dinning In. Great Soldier. There were a bunch from that era. Too bad they aren't around now to help with the current mess.
Well. Enough pontificating for now.
Glad to hear that the home situation is good. Ours is looking better. The little guy is responding well and we seem to be over the major hurdles. Thanks for the kind thoughts.
Regards.
Bob
PS If the Bob's get too confusing, I could start using my old call sign.LOL God Bless. |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 10:01 am
Okay Robert,
Many apologies for the long delay in getting back to you.
Start by covering the points in your post.
I got the same take on 1913intel as you, and I'm betting he's a current intel weenie. He seems young, and his wife just had their first child about a year ago. He was out for a week and mentioned that was the reason. I've been on his site for a few years, he seems to have things down fairly well. Point of fact, he ran an Israeli intel article prior to Gulf II starting which reported massive Iraqi convoys crossing the border in Syria. Also reported the presence of Russian special forces operating in the northern region. Interesting?
I will bow to your superior knowledge regarding Italy. I only spent the time in Venice, so I'm limited. Spot on for the French in the big cities. I've had some "experiences" in Paris. But I have a take on the French, if you can stand a story. I was stationed in Germany back in the late 70s-early 80s. I was at a Gasthaus one day downing a few and chowing on jagerschnitzel mit pomme frites, and I started flirting with a REAL good looking brunette sitting by herself a couple tables over. Ended up buying her a drink and making a date. Turned out her name was Yvette, she was French, and was living in Germany "slumming" for a couple years before going back to France to find a husband. Fast forwarding a bit, we were an "item" for almost two years, she went home about the same time I left for Knox. Now I had 4 years of French in high school, so I thought I was pretty good. (I'm not fluent in any language but the basics come easy to me.) But whenever I tried to talk to her in French she insisted on English. Finally I asked her if my French was that bad. Here's what she told me: "Technically you speak it well, but you just don't have the right attitude." And what does that have to do with it, asks Bob. "To be French, and to speak French, you have to KNOW that not only does the world revolve around France, the entire universe revolves around France." And that, my friend, sums up the French world (excuse me, UNIVERSE) view. On the other hand, she took me back to her home one time for a weekend. Her folks were farmers in the Alsace region. Good Lord, those people eat! And eat well. Had to run double PT for a week to work it off! On another occasion I took a week annual and we went to the Med region. Completely different attitude down there, people weren't exactly friendly, but they were not nasty. Those times are some of my favorite memories. We both knew it was a short term "live for the moment" relationship, so there was no head game stuff, just fun. And it kept me out of the barracks rat routine that so many soldiers unfortunately fall into.
Next: Yes, I did note the blog feature, and I think it's a GREAT idea. Have not accessed it yet, but am planning to.
Your best bet is to stop watching the idiots on TV. I'm joking, maybe. An Expert Consultant is an oxymoron in today's media atmosphere. They will search far and wide for anyone who fits their preconceived agenda, without regard for any valid qualifications. Have you ever done jury duty? The defense will trot out a bunch of "expert" witnesses who will say one thing, then the prosecution will trot out a bunch of "expert" witnesses who will prove the exact opposite. The bottom line is all these "experts" are being paid for a specific opinion. There is nothing objective about any of it.
My feeling about Iraq is similar to yours, although I did think we would go, just not quite as soon as we did. The problem is our inability to use our force in the right way. We've got the greatest bunch of troops in the world, and we've got the best equipment in the world, including an almost untouchable Air Force. In Gulf I how many days did we bomb the crap out of them before we went swanning? (I THINK that was the name of one of our armored ops) In Gulf II we still kicked royal butt against the Iraqi army. But then we needed to lock the country down like we did Germany and Japan in WWII. We OCCUPIED those countries for years after. We told THEM when they could pee, and eat, etc. We told THEM what their government was going to be like, and what they had to do to get us off their backs. This pansy way we're operating didn't work in 'Nam, and it's running a hard road here too. When Fallujah erupted, the right answer was to send the bombers in, level it, THEN send the boys in to pick up the pieces. And sorry, I don't want to hear about the "Holy Islamic sites". Every 3rd house over there is a Holy site! Did the Taliban care about the Holy sites of Buddhism? Do the Muslim radicals who have burned hundreds of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues in Kosovo care? Stop. I can't help it. As a vet it sickens me when the leadership makes decisions based on political needs rather than what's good for the troops. Men and women have died that didn't need to, and that's the most disheartening thing of all. The insurgency could have been stopped dead in it's tracks if we had some cojones in the food chain. Where is Patton's reincarnation at? We need him.
Gotten WAY off target here. Warned you in an earlier post about my "tangentializing". You've just been baptized! One last statement and I'll move on. Every time before an Iraqi election, they closed the borders, and every time violence has dropped. We know that weapons and manpower are flowing in from Iran and Syria. Can anyone tell me why the borders were not secured first thing? The US won't secure our own borders, so I guess it's asking too much to secure the borders in a war zone.
Whew. Take a deep breath. That's better. As a matter of fact I HAVE read Hal Moore's book, and it's excellent. What was the name of the movie? I must have missed it. I'm jealous you got to meet him. I got to meet the German general who was in charge of Monte Cassino in WWII when I was a teenager. My Dad worked for the government, and there was this dinner where the general was the guest of honor. Actually a pretty nice guy. He was an Austrian officer when Hitler annexed the country, and if your choice is serve or die there's not much room for maneuver. Another story (I'm throwing the stories in just to show you how easy it is to come up with them): As I said, my Dad worked for the government, and frequently liased with the higher echelons of the military, ours and others. My growing up was surrounded by Majors, light birds, full birds, and a few generals. When I was making my college choices in high school I narrowed it down to Arizona State (I was born a couple miles from there), University of Iowa (obvious reasons), Michigan State Univ. (they offered me a 50% academic scholarship), and West Point (my family has a history of military service, but no officers). I visited ASU, Iowa, and MSU. I wasn't too impressed with Iowa, the campus is mixed in with the town. ASU had some hot women walking around but the guide was a prime jerk. MSU was fantastic. The day came for my visit to the Point. A full bird Colonel with driver picked us up, drove to the campus, showed us around, ate a meal in the cafeteria, and took us to a football game between Army and Holy Cross. Army got stomped, then we drove back home. Here's the funny part. My four years in high school the football team had gone 1-38-1, and there was no way I was going someplace where the football team got stomped! So MSU it was. Ironically four years later after leaving MSU I joined the Army as an enlisted man. Might have been different if Army had won that game! Sadly, my Dad passed away right before my Sophomore year, so he couldn't give me an "I told you so". And it was only AFTER joining that I realized that he was as high up the food chain as he was, because only then did I realize what Colonels and Generals were.
Back to you for a short, then I'm going to close. NEVER worry about becoming a "joke". What anyone besides your family and friends think is not relevant. And sometimes it's not relevant what your family and friends think either. As I mentioned before, most of the human race can only justify their pitiful existence by trashing others. It gives them a feeling of power to try to emotionally damage someone else. Negativity breeds negativity, and if you are unable to rise above the fray and say "ain't nothing but a ham sandwich and an ice cream cone" you're doomed to mediocrity. And DON'T ask me to explain that saying, I only know that's what everybody in my unit in Germany said whenever one of you officers ruined our weekend by calling an alert!
Wonderful to hear your scene is improving! Thoughts and prayers continue on this end.
Regards,
Bob
Didn't realize I'd written a novel. Ought to charge you 15 or 20 bucks! God Bless. |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 10:33 am
After rereading my last post, I'll point out a couple things. The story about West Point is a good example of how NOT to write. The story itself is a good one, but the presentation pretty much sucked. If I would have spent some time proof reading I would have gotten rid of those parenthetical notations and worked the info into a coherent fashion. The flow doesn't seem right to me on rereading either. I'll blame it on the fact that it's 0428 here and I need sleep, got to help Julie move some furniture in about 6 hours.
That's one of my areas of weakness, too much parenthetical notation breaks up the reader's concentration and messes up the flow.
Also should have done more paragraphing through the post. Another point of success is to be able to constructively critique your own work. Striving for perfection is required, acheiving it is elusive. The ability to recognize your weaknesses is the first step in overcoming them.
And a whole bunch of other cliches!
Until next time,
Bob |
| FarmerBob (Little Upsilon) | Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 04:07 am
Robert. Will get back to you Sunday. Much to reply to.lol
Bob |
| FarmerBob (Little Upsilon) | Monday, July 21, 2008 - 05:31 am
You touched on many great points, Robert. Due to time constraints, I will will reply to each in turn over the next several days.
My problem with our military operations over the last 15 years has been that our combat capabilities for offensive actions have become out of proportion to our sustainability for defensive actions. In layman's terms, we can destroy like other no force in history, but we can't hold the ground we take. Not enough trained grunts that are the backbone for sustained occupation operations. I got into hot water in the early 90's for proposing a TOE for specialized "peacekeeping and occupation" brigades built around military police MOS's rather than infantry. The use of good combat units in COTW, Conflicts Other Than War (God knows how out of date that term is), is a morally bankrupt policy that is unworthy of our troops and those we would pupport to aid. Grunts make lousy cops. No fault of theirs, but the demands of these operations with the political restrictions under which American forces operate today require a maturity that challenges experienced NCO's and officers, much less teen aged troops who have barely mastered the basics of their profession. Once upon a time, mistakes and poor judgement calls would have negligible consequences for the troops involved. Today, however, we operate under a microscope with worldwide news coverage and near total transparency.
War is nasty, brutal, and utterly unforgiving towards noncombatants caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. Always has been and likely always will be. That kind of reality is not accepted by our population, civilian and senior military leadership, or the news media. Our kids pay the price for that misconception, however. They are expected to be more police officer than combat soldier. A recipe for disaster. Troops will always look after their own units survival above all else. Such is human nature and damned sound military sense.
The current strategic debacle is unforgivable. Did we learn nothing from Vietnam?. No. A poor question. Did we willingly throw away all that we learned from Vietnam and made part of our military culture for 2 generations?
1. We cannot instil our values into a foreign population without destroying a sizable percentage of it first, utterly crushing any potential resistance to our political will, and completely isolating said population from outside support or influence. WWII and its immediate aftermath were historical anomalies.
2. Given a relatively secure logistical base from which to operate, an active insurgency can and will last forever.
3. American values are not inherent to most cultures no matter how much we may wish them to be. Humans have much in common, but those who would lead others most often embrace our basest instincts. The historical exceptions are societies which have sought to improve the human condition. The opposite has been and is the norm.
What to do about the War on Terror?
I don't know, but the current course is a disaster. Too many good kids are paying the price for our arrogance and sacrificing themselves for policies that cannot work. God bless them all.
All the hype about the "greatest generation" over the last few years has sickened me. It takes nothing away from those heroes who defeated the Axis powers to say that the Vietnam vets and the current generation of kids are every bit as dedicated and worthy of respect. The WWII vets never claimed superiority to subsequent generations to the best of my knowledge, and to do such in their name would be an insult to all that they fought for.
The kids fighting today are as good or better than any who have served before them and I could not be more proud of them.
Wow. My own little book in progress here.
More to follow.
Linebacker Six. Out. |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Monday, July 21, 2008 - 08:51 am
Won't throw any new items onto the table, but just wanted to let you know I'm reading. Some great points in there, but I'll give you a chance to finish with the batch before I carry on. Will say that I agree with your "greatest generation" take. It seems to me that every generation in American history is equal to the nomenclature. The first generations, who gave up all they had to come here and tame a wild land (my apologies to the native Americans, I wish we would have found a better way), the generation who gave us our independance, the generation who fought on both sides in the Civil War, the generations who turned the USA into the industrial giant which allowed the WWII generation to perform as they did, and so on and so forth. I have incredible respect for the WWII folks, who survived the worst worldwide depression in recorded history, only to step into the horror of the worst world war in recorded history. Incidentally, the label of WWI and WWII really isn't accurate. It depends on the definition you use for a world war. I'll just mention that there were numerous wars throughout history which would fit the term.
Okay, darn it, I said I would add no new ideas!
Romeo Papa out. |
| Quetzalcoatl God of War (White Giant) | Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 04:15 am
Pardon the interruption.
Quote:Incidentally, the label of WWI and WWII really isn't accurate. It depends on the definition you use for a world war. I'll just mention that there were numerous wars throughout history which would fit the term.
The Punic Wars. Over a century of genocide, betrayal, and salting the earth over the ruins of your enemies homeland. Excellent choice for the First World War.
Again apologies please continue. |
| FarmerBob | Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 06:07 am
Sorry for the delay, Robert. Very busy at the farm these days.
On a more personal note. I will share my West Point "experience" with you as well.
I graduated from high school in the late 60's and faced a similar dilema. Being a fairly successful football player, I had coaches with scholarship offers breathing down my neck and my old man was really pushing for me to try for an appointment to the Point. The head coach there was also very interested and arranged a visit in my senior year. I didn't rate a field grade driver, however, LOL. Just the Coach and a couple of players. The virtues of the MA were extolled to me endlessly from the moment of my arrival UNTIL I got alone with the player/cadets.
Some great things I was told in locker room:
1. Don't come here. All we do is work our asses off and get chewed out.
2. Don't come here. Go to a REAL college and f#$%
hippie chicks.
3. Are you insane? Do you see any GIRLS here?
4. Do you know what the life expectancy of 2nd LT's is in Vietnam?
Needless to say, the message was received Lima Charlie.
Unlike you, however, I didn't have the good sense to go straight to college. I was sick of school and books and didn't want to be a "pussy" and hide from Vietnam. LMFAO. What a stupid punk kid I was. Therefore, I snuck off to a recruiter and joined the Airborne Infantry. The E7 who ran that station actually took pity on me without my knowing it. By "guiding" me into the 82nd, he was actually doing what he could to keep me out of Nam. I was just too dumbassed at the time to realize it. End of story, Dad was pissed off for about 5 years and I was well on my way to completely F@#$ing up my life.
Chapter 2 will be my next dumbass maneuver as a young enlisted guy. Care to guess what that was?
By all means, we aren't following a script here. Kick in whatever you wish to the conversation, whenever the mood strikes you. We can always get back to other points later.
Will try to get more in later.
Regards.,
Bob
PS. Sam. Join in if you like. Just a couple of old farts shooting the S@#$ here. |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 10:31 am
Hey, I resemble that remark about old farts! Or something like that. I was about a half decade behind you in school, the fall of Saigon took place the year I graduated. Had to get a draft number, but they weren't calling any those days. My Dad wanted me to K two birds with one S, our family had a military tradition, but NO one had ever gone to college right out of high school. My Dad had gotten his degree from Oklahoma, but it was through correspondence courses and a summer semester on campus.
Funny you mention being sick of school and books. I wasn't sick, just bored. Our family moved to our current location from Japan the summer before I went into 8th grade. The state is supposed to have a good educational system, but it didn't compare to the DOD schools. I had taken French I and Algebra I in 7th grade, but French II and Algebra II were only for 9th graders here, period. My folks fought the district but didn't win, they got told to put me in a private school if they didn't like the rules. Additionally, the textbooks they used for science and english were the same ones I had in 6th grade overseas. I got so bored I deliberately did not study or bring any books home, just to make it a challenge. Until 11th grade, when I finally got into some new things. Took a long time to redevelop good study habits. The only thing that really saved me my last two years was my voracious reading habits. I read so much, in so many different fields, that I had a basic understanding before walking into the classroom.
What an egotist I sound like! Better come back to earth. I can see where the lack of girls on campus at the Point would be a problem, especially since I don't think you got much time off campus your first year. It crossed my mind also; like most 18 year olds I was a horny toad.
I could guess what chapter two holds, but I'd rather stay in suspense. File it when you have time.
Regards,
Bob
@the Aztec/Toltec/Mayan God of War: Spot on with your opinion of a good start point for world wars. I agree with Farmer, jump in if you want. I've followed many of your comments on other parts of the forum, your in-game persona is intriguing to say the least. Were you aware that Quetzalcoatl was the name of an actual Toltec ruler? Credited with inventing the calendar, and developing the method of farming corn? Among other stuff. The Toltecs were some bad dudes and dudettes. Walked all over the Mayans and subjugated them, and the Mayans were no slouches themselves. Visited Chichen Itza once. One piece of art definitely freaked me. It was a mural of a post battle celebration, with the sacrifices, etc.
The freaky thing was that the Toltec nobility was into masochism. They are depicted slicing themselves in a ritual bloodletting. A woman is shown running a strand of thorns through her tongue, a man shown running one through his..., yep that's right. Some boys and girls I DON'T want to meet in a dark alley when they're in a bad mood! |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 11:22 am
Now I'm going to begin your lessons in "journalese" and give you a critique on your last post, since what you've written would make a good journal entry.
The story about the Point was excellent! The only thing I might change if it were in an official journal would be to refer to "f'ing" the hippie chicks in a more oblique way. Use "make" hippie chicks. Don't want any more "Grandpa, what's an asshat" episodes! LOL.
The next section needs a touch of work. Absolutely drop the "what a stupid punk kid I was". At that point in your life it was the decision you made using the best info you had available at the time. Replace that sentence with something along the lines of: "Being an idealistic teen, reality hadn't intruded into my thoughts and life yet." It basically says the same thing, but now the reader will feel empathy with you instead of saying to themselves "Hey, he admits he was a stupid punk kid, so he's probably just a stupid punk Grandpa now. Can't change a leopard's spots, you know." All of us were idealistic at one point. We were gonna change the world, we were going to make a difference. For most of us reality rears up and bites us on the arse somewhere along the way. So one way of writing it gets people on your side, the other way biases them against you.
Similar vein with the last half of the last sentence. Love the part about Dad being pissed for 5 years. Again, rephrase the part about completely f'ing up your life. Something like "I was well on the way to discovering I had fallen into a DEEP hole without a rope; what the hell had I gotten myself into?" Can you see the difference the tone makes?
Take all this in the manner I'm giving it. I'm not telling you that you suck. On the contrary, there IS definitely ability there. Your flow is good, and the experiences are of definite interest. Just pay some attention to how you portray yourself. Get a touch of the French attitude. What you have to say is valuable, if not for today then for the future.
Make it happen! |
| FarmerBob (Little Upsilon) | Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 06:36 pm
LOL Robert. You have obliquely identified one of my difficulties in communicating, both written and verbal.
My upbringing and return to life in a rural area has affected my "style" as well as my outlook towards people. Given my family history and relative "status" in our community here, I have always had to ensure that I did not put on airs with our neighbors. Conducting myself as one of the boys, as it were, helps to maintain my sense of community with those I share this area. Last night, I was called out to help some township workers clear two downed trees from a local road. As blue collar guys, you can imagine the language used as we accomplished this endevour in a rainstorm. Thusly, upon returning home and posting, my "infantry mouth" was in high gear. As you may have noticed from other posts elsewhere in these forums, I try not to come across as the uptight old man and attempt to write more for a younger, hipper audience. Of course, one does not spend 26 years in military service without earning an honorary PhD in Vulgarism. LOL. Therefore, your critique is right on the money; but, I felt it necessary to explain the reasoning, or lack thereof, behind the words.
I actually hadn't thought about the last post in terms of a journal entry, however. Your feedback is well taken. Chapter 2 will be crafted with an eye for the story telling and we shall see how I fare.
Thanks for the directional motivation. More to follow.
Warm regards.
Bob |
| FarmerBob (Little Upsilon) | Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 06:39 pm
Post Script. I am most assuredly a "stupid punk grandpa." LOL |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 08:43 pm
Might be true, especially considering you're an ex-football jock! LOL. I'm confused. Since it's a scientific fact that football players are not allowed to have an IQ over 25, how did you get to be an officer? They need an IQ of 30.
Ouch, I'm nasty. On the real side, nothing wrong with being blue collar and one of the boys. One of the reasons for my success as an instructor at Knox was the ability to communicate with people from all kinds of socio-economic backgrounds. You had to, because what you were giving those kids could be the difference between life and death on the battlefield. If you couldn't get through to them the end result would be very bad when the caps started flying. Julie tells me frequently that I really should have been an actor because I have so many personas!
Back in the Victorian days what you're talking about was referred to as Noblesse Oblige. And it was a good thing. People are much more willing to follow someone who's "a good guy, not conceited at all, never throws his status in your face, gets down and dirty when he has to". So go right on being who you are. Just work on how you view yourself. Obviously you ended up being successful in life. Did you make every decision correctly along the way? DUH. Show me ONE person, religious figures excluded, who went through life without one bad decision, and I'll call you a liar. But think about this: every decision, right ones and wrong ones, contributed to making you who you are today. The critical aspect to making mistakes is to take something away from it in a learning capacity. Get burned from touching the stove? Learn not to touch it when it's on, and you're good to go. That's the main thing.
I believe in an infinite number of alternate universes. Every move we make, from deciding what time to get up in the morning, to deciding what to have for dinner, produces an infinite number of possible branches with an infinite number of results. So somewhere out there the Farmer went to West Point. And never met his wife because he made General and was stuck in the Pentagon for the rest of his life! Being a football player, he couldn't find the exit!
Man, I HATE when I get onto the psycho-babble tangent! But the stuff is true. Who and what you are is just that. If anybody out there can't handle it, tough shit, they don't have to deal with you then.
Here's my philosophy on humanity: 10% of people are "saints" (for lack of a better term), 10% of people are evil incarnate, and the other 80% are sheep who are influenced to a greater or lesser degree by the first two groups. I was never very good at saying baaaaaaaaa, so I belong to one of the leader groups. Your choice which one you think it is!
Need to get back to my countries and CEO.
Warm regards,
Bob
P.S. Got the point, punk? says he in his best Clint imitation! LOL |
| FarmerBob | Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 06:43 am
The football player jokes, I have heard them all my adult life. The irony is that I only played in high school. "Linebacker" was hung on me by my first battalion commander when I was new butter bar. It stuck through the rest of my career until I finally gave up and embraced it. The further irony is that I was a nosetackle and tight end. LOL Even last year, I had to argue with some kid at the gym that I was not some former NFL player from Baltimore. Well, being 6'5" and 250 has its benefits and drawbacks.
Incidently, the minimum IQ requirement for an officer is 45. Anything over 70 and one is considered overqualified and a threat to good military order and discipline.
Seriously, though, this conversation has taken me down some memory lanes that I haven't traversed in years. You mentioned youthful idealism as a motive for foregoing college or the Academy, but that really wasn't the case. Do remember what America was like back in the 60's?
You would have been a youngster then, but can you recall a sense of the national mood?
I recall quite clearly the lack of direction I felt amidst all the seeming turmoil. The civil rights movement was in full swing. Riots and protests seemed to be happening everywhere. The balloon could go up at any second with the communists. And of course, Vietnam. The draft loomed over every young man's plans for the future it seemed. Of course, in our rural community, none of the national angst and conflict actually occured, but it always felt like was close by and headed in our direction. We didn't have anything approaching a hippie in our school and the adults in our lives took a much more proactive approach to guiding us. Ironic that my form of "rebellion" would be to shun all of my "opportunities" and volunteer to be just like any other kid who didn't have my advantages. We Baby Boomers are a screwed up lot. Perhaps everything came too easily to us in those couple of decades. Patriotism, duty, social justice, nor any other lofty ideals factored into my decision making process at the time. I was simply tired of formal schooling, enjoyed football but hardly wanted to make a career of it, and resented so many people telling me what I was and would be.
I know that my Dad was proud as hell of me, especially my athletic achievement. I also recognized years later that he was terrified of losing me to Vietnam. He realized, I'm sure, that he had raised me on tales of becoming a fighter ace over Europe and felt that he had glamorized military service without imparting to me an equal appreciation for the sacrifices and dangers involved. Even had he done so, it would not have mattered at all. The only emotion I recall was a profound sense of guilt if I didn't do what others were forced to. I wasn't looking to "Defend Freedom From Communist Tyranny" or "Go Kill Me Some Gooks." There were only a handful of kids that I remember being drafted from our area, but many had enlisted. More than a few had come home in caskets over the previous few years and I had attended every one of the burial services. But can a 17 year old REALLY grasp the meaning of death, even at a funeral? All I saw was that there was a war and kids I knew were fighting it. Some had died in it. If I "hid" in college or even West Point, I was somehow not being a man. Such is the reasoning of a dumb kid.
You, my friend, got an education and several years of life under your belt and THEN gave your ass to Uncle Sam? I may be the dumb jock but you must be suffering from some form of mental retardation. And then to volunteer to be a big steel target packed with high explosives and diesel fuel? Surely, you must qualify for some form of disabilty payments for obvious mental incapacity given that string of boneheaded decisions. LOL
Back to you, my wayward friend.
Bob |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 09:54 am
Buenissimo! Or however your wife's relatives would spell it. Thought you told me you couldn't write.
As a prof, I have no choice but to give that one a 4.0. And I looked hard for anything I could find to downgrade it. Just wasn't there.
That is exactly how you should put things down in your journal efforts. You captured the frame of mind you were in at the time, and provided a background for why you were in that frame. Just the right amount of "big picture" to let today's or tomorrow's "yutes" get a glimpse of what is was back in the day.
Okay, if I make your head any bigger you won't get through the door to do those chores.
Responding to the question of whether I was aware of the national mood during Vietnam, a resounding yes. The fact that I was a young whelp didn't deter me from an acute interest. The one thing I think made a profound difference to me was that I wasn't here to live through it. From 1965-70 we lived in Japan, so I was well insulated from "hippie" influences. And my folks were the best. We got the Stars & Stripes newspaper, of course, but we also got two english language Japanese papers, and the Sunday editions of the New York Times and Chicago Tribune. So I got all the different points of view. Additionally, we lived on an Air Force base which was the primary medevac hospital for wounded. The C130s never stopped coming and going. Every Saturday the family would go to the hospital and visit with the troops, and then go to the movies. Nowadays the shrinks would probably condemn my parents for exposing preteens to such a "traumatizing experience" but it did us no harm, and did the troops a lot of good.
It was a major culture shock when I came back stateside and experienced firsthand the derision and actual hatred that some of this country had for the troops.
The entry into "manhood" has always been crazy, throughout history, in all cultures. What is it that requires us males to do wild, crazy, dangerous, and downright stupid things just to prove we are "man" enough to be admitted into that mysterious fraternity of "real men"? Who knows?
Boy, you nailed me with the last paragraph! The mental retardation was known as the Carter syndrome. There were no job prospects out there for a political science/history double major grad, and due to the family situation there was no way I was going to be able to go to grad school. My Grandfather had taken over covering the college expenses I couldn't after my Dad died, but because of my Aunt raising hell about him wasting her inheritance on me he couldn't help with grad school either. THAT'S another story.
Anyway after graduating I got a parttime job as a convenience store clerk, a parttime job as a janitor for Blue shield, and a parttime job as an inventory control clerk at a motorcycle shop where my best friend was sales and service manager. Between the 3 I worked 60 hours a week with no days off. You can imagine how a 22 year old enjoyed that scene.
Looking through the newspaper one day I saw this tiny ad that said "2500 dollar signing bonus. Call 1-800-...". Now 2500 dollars looked like a million to me right about then. So I dialed the number, and when a voice boomed out "United States Army Recruiting Office, how may I help you?" I nearly fainted. But greed is a powerful factor. I asked about the signing bonus; he said come on down, we'll talk about it. I did, and found out the bonus only applied to Infantry or Armor. Well, my Dad had been a TC during the Korean War, and the thought of walking around everywhere with a 70 pound pack on my back did not appeal to me at all. The rest, as they say, is history. I cursed myself through every minute of Basic and AIT!
So, as with you, a sense of duty and patriotism was not really a primary factor in my joining either.
Talking about diesel fuel, there's just something special about a motor pool where 44 sixty ton monsters are all roaring away. Yeah, right.
What's the next line of the song you referenced in your close? I need to stop getting old. I can here the tune running in my head, but the words won't come! Could have something to do with it once again being oh-dark-thirty in the morning, too. Once again, outstanding post, a true journal worthy and ready article.
Tankers Rule,
Bob |
| FarmerBob (Little Upsilon) | Monday, July 28, 2008 - 05:22 am
Sorry for the delay Robert. Time is just flying by this summer and it seems spare for moments are in short supply.
Returning to your comments, some questions have occurred to me that I had meant to ask earlier.
Without getting into great specifics, what was your father's profession? You obviously had a untypical childhood with a lot of world travel. Almost as bad as a military brat.
What were your impressions of the other cultures to which you were exposed? Have you made it back to any of those areas to note the changes?
Never did more than pass through Japan but was always fascinated by them as a people.
Despite my jibes, you actually did well to wait a few years before enlisting. You would not likely have been impressed by the Army of the early 70's. I have never comprehended how the Sov's never figured out what terrible shape we were in back then. Do you recall the racial and drug problems epidemic in the ranks or were you in "cleaned up" units by then?
You pointed out deficiencies in our educational system evident 30+ years ago. What did you think of the German or Japanese programs? The BRD seemed to have a much more practical approach geared to actual skill sets rather than just trying to pipeline the most amount of kids into higher education. Of course, we old timers have figured out that real education continues and becomes valuable only after we gain the experience to utilize and nuture it.
European women. What can I say? Heaven and Hell in the most delightful packaging ever devised. Just like the fairer sex everywhere, I suppose. I spent my share of time enjoying the local cultures as well, but never cared to form or had time for lasting relationships. That was until my own "colpo di fulmine." LOL I'll let you google that phrase. No French gals, however. I don't know if that is my loss or not. Dutch girls, however,.....
At any rate, I invite you to expand upon these interesting areas we've touched upon.
Regards,
Bob
P.S. Mel Gibson played Hal Moore in a movie called "We Were Soldiers.", which focused on the 1/7th in the first battle of the Ia Drang valley in '65. The book of course covered broader issues
of the war and our involvement. |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Monday, July 28, 2008 - 11:27 am
Yeah, RL can be a pain when you want to kick back and enjoy your "old age".
Without going into unneccessary detail, Dad was an intel analyst. Not a field agent, thankfully.
Very unusual childhood, but I actually loved it. Lots of pros and cons both ways, but moving every couple years forced me into making friends quickly and coping when either they or we moved on. It also exposed me to a vast array of different cultures and socio-economic situations, which kept me from developing the insularity that people who spend their entire life in one location get. Downside is having no friend I grew up with from the cradle on, and a tendency to be unable to expose my "inner soul" to people. Also I am always psychologically thinking I'll be moving on soon, so committing is a problem. This despite the fact that I've been in the same locale for 25 years now!
Sidebar to that: I was highly ticked off at the USPS when I got a job there. On the app they ask whether you would be willing to transfer to other locations, including overseas. I checked all the boxes yes, with the thought that I would continue going from place to place every 3 years or so. It wasn't until I was signed on that I discovered that is a joke. Yes, you can transfer, but you have to receive permission from the PO you want to go to (no problem, that makes sense) AND your current installation must also approve your leaving! And unless you're an asshat worker, you don't get permission to leave. And if you are an asshat worker the place you want to go to won't accept you. Catch-22. In 16 years I was there my installation approved 3 transfers. One because the guy's father was the Postmaster of where he wanted to go, another because the girl's Mom was head of personnel, and one for family reasons. So much for my grand plan.
Impressions of other cultures? If you go somewhere new and expect them to conform to your ideas you'll be disappointed. "When in Rome..." is a cliche, but a valuable one. I liked the Japanese culture quite a bit, extremely polite, but rather too regimented for my taste. Never got used to their version of food either. Fish eyeball soup is a delicacy there, I kid you not. But they are on the whole an extremely intelligent people. Not inventive as such, but their ability to copy and improve is amazing.
Korean culture was not my cup of tea. They seemed friendly, but rather arrogant as a people, and I never adjusted to the fact that they are not believers in waiting in line. Every person for themselves.
Filipino culture was more along the Western thought pattern, but I never felt entirely comfortable amongst the folks there. Just got the impression that things were a facade.
German culture? I'm biased. That's my ancestry. And yes, they too can be arrogant, and also tend to be rather prejudiced towards folks with a REALLY good tan. On the plus side they make the best beer in the world (Guinness comes close)and if I could find a restaurant in my area that does jagerschnitzel I'd never eat at home!
Have I returned to see the changes? Except for the Phillippines, yes. Julie and I have been in Europe 5 times, and I always force her to spend at least a day in Germany. We also took a 3 week trip through Asia the year Hong Kong returned to the Chinese. That was a whirlwind trip. Hong Kong, Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore, Beijing, Shanghai, Korea, and Japan, 3 days in each.
As for cultures I have visited but not lived in, my favorites are the United Kingdom and Ireland. I spent a week in Ireland and gained 8 pounds! Probably 4 of that was Guinness. I do like my beer, but 3 a day is my limit. Of course, if the three are all 50 ounce Foster's ...
The drug problems in the barracks was still a major thing when I was in Germany, although it had shifted from heroin to hashish. The racial thing was also there in a big way, but it was more under the surface in an armor unit due to the dependence of the crew on everyone performing their duties.
Have to say that in my experience both the Japanese and German educational systems beat ours. The Japanese approach was to raise the bar for everyone, as opposed to the lowest common denominator "feel good" dumbing down here in the US. There was no such animal as "social promotion" in Japan either. If you couldn't catch on the first time you got a chance to try again. Your assessment of the BRD system seems on target.
I'll google that Italiano phrase after leaving the forum. Euro women do seem to have a much more open attitude than our American women. I made time for Yvette because it was that or stay in the barracks and deal with the "sit in the room, drink beer, smoke hash, play cards" barrack rat routine. Unless we were in the field I spent all my weekends from COB Friday until Sunday p.m. at her place. Your mentioning of Dutch girls brings back a memory too. Way back in the mid/late 80's Julie and I took a trip which included a stop in Amsterdam. It was in the beginning of our relationship, before we really became comfortable with each other. We had some trivial disagreement which I don't even remember what about, and the air was definitely chilly in our neighborhood.
Part of our experience was dinner at a restaurant which is in the Book of Records as having the smallest frontage in the world. English translation is The Green Door. Someone your size would probably have to turn sideways to walk in. It's 3 or 4 stories high with two tables per floor. Our floor was Jul and I, and a pair of young blonde Dutch girls at the other table. I flirted and conversed more with them than with Julie through the course of the meal, and ended up sleeping on the floor that night 'cuz the hotel we were staying in didn't have a couch!
I'm surprised I missed "We Were Soldiers", as I thought Moore's book was exceptional, and I'm a fan of Gibson.
There. I think I've covered all the points you made in your last. Don't worry about time lapses between posts. Being from farmer stock I understand that if do crops spring through harvest is pretty non-stop. And if you have livestock it's year round. Did my share of baling hay, detassling corn, etc.! Didn't like doing hay, too itchy after. Didn't mind the detassling because I had a lot of cute girl cousins and they helped with that.
Let me close by saying that travel is my cause celebre. I've been in all 50 states, and on every continent except Antarctica. And when I find a tour that actually lets you step on the ground I'm going there too. It doesn't count if you just look at it from a ship. Maybe I can convince one of my publishers to send me on assignment for a week. LOL. I've found in my experience that if you don't go in demanding that the country you're in conform to US ways you'll have a good time in most places. If you want to go to a foreign country, adjust to their way of doing things. I get embarrassed when I'm out of country and other visitors get hostile because "that's not the way we do it back home!" If you want things done the way they are back home go visit another state, there's plenty of things to see and do here in the US. |
| FarmerBob | Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 06:21 am
Excellent contribution to the other thread. A very nice summary of modern history. Your skills as a writer were most in evidence.
People do love their prejudices though, don't they?
Interesting field your father was in. I will assume that you probably were kept in the dark about much it. No suprise there. I worked in the field in a different capacity for much of the 80's. Keeping watch on the bear as it were, but that "desk tour" put me in place to meet my wife.
Therefore, it was the best post in which I could ever have served.
As to the Postal Service? Those people are nuts. 16 years? I doubt I could have lasted 16 minutes.
The Koreans are a fiercely proud and independent people who have had a hard time of it over the last 100 years or so. I understand your difficulty understanding them. Once you do get past the bravado, however, they are a wonderful people and outstanding soldiers.
Tra Binh Dong. Blue Dragons. My salutations.
When in Rome? Put your wallet in your sock and your jewelry in your FRONT pocket. LOL Americans have a reputation for being obnoxious but we can't hold a candle to continental Europeans for rudeness. They still haven't even heard of the concept of a line in Italy!
I wish I had had more free time to actually enjoy some of the places I've been, but that's Army life. We talk about travelling again, but it just seems to be a continuous string of "next years" with something always coming up. The mrs did spend 18 mos. back in the old country a few years back prior to her parents passing, but I couldn't get away to join her. Too many responsibilities here.
Incidently, farm chores are long gone hereabouts. I've just been running my ass off keeping the grandkids entertained. Got them all summer passes to a theme park and a water park in the area and we've been using the hell out of them. That and night shifts at the hospital have been keeping me pretty tied up. I haven't done much of anything around here this summer and there will be hell to pay this fall when I have to catch up all things I've been neglecting lately.
I will attempt to get the next installment of my little story on here soon.
"How Stupid Do You Have To Be To Volunteer For Vietnam.... Twice?"
LOL. Catch you soon.
Bob |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Thursday, July 31, 2008 - 02:27 am
Hey there. Jeez, there just isn't enough time in the day any more!
Am battling for a gc award this month over on GR, am getting WAY too involved with the decent discussions going on in the forum (but loving every minute!), and of course I need to pay the bills, so RL jumps in every so often.
Have been offered an interesting on site assignment which I am strongly tempted to take up. A magazine wants an article on some history of the Old West. They are willing to pay for one week lodging in Tucson, plus the stipend for the article. It is VERY rare that any publisher offers anything except the cash for the article. I have not worked for this particular magazine before,so am not certain if they are reliable. But boy, what an opportunity! Even if it IS the middle of the summer and will be 110 in the shade.
Don't think it would have an impact on SC, as most hotels nowadays offer some form of internet access.
Regarding my Dad, you're right. Until I was 12 or 13, I thought he was nothing more than a logistics clerk. Quite the surprise when I discovered the truth, and I will admit to a sense of pride.
I do agree with your assessment of the Korean people. I wasn't there long enough to gain any of the long term outlooks. That and the fact that I was a child. You're correct in their military ability. As I pointed out in the other thread and you referenced in yours, they were with us, along with the Aussies, up until nearly the end over in Nam. I will add that they were the most feared by the NVA and VC.
LOL on your assessment of Rome. Never been there, but Julie has and agrees with you 100%.
One of the downsides to being tied into a large property and community obligations is that your time doesn't really belong to you. Leaving for just a week causes all kinds of preplanning, rescheduling, etc. I sympathize with all that. It's too bad we can't have a clone of each of us, one to do the busy work and one to do the enjoyable stuff.
I occasionally wonder how things would have turned out if I had gotten married and raised a family. I'm very happy with what I do and when I do it, but the whole "grass is greener" syndrome sometimes sneaks in. For sure things would have been radically different!
Grandkids are great. The best part is you get to spoil the hell out of them and then ship them back to their folks to handle the fallout! Helps you get even with your kids for the stuff they put you through! This is from second hand, I'm not blessed with the tykes myself.
Hmmm... volunteered twice? You should get that checked into, it sounds serious. LOL. Dad spent 3 months there in 1970, and I overheard him tell my Mom afterwards "never again".
In breathless anticipation of the next installment of "The continuing Saagaa of FarmerBob"!
I do hate getting old. I remember very well that a narrator either in the movies or TV used to say "Stay tuned for the next episode in the continuing saga of..." and I also remember he dragged out the word saga, but for the life I me I can't put a name to it. Frustrating.
Until next time, Bob. |
| FarmerBob | Sunday, August 3, 2008 - 08:17 am
Robert, I will get back to our conversation shortly. Time continues to be a problem a for me and participating in the "other" discussion has been eating up my limited time.
However, i just wanted to let you know what I will be doing in few hours, Sunday morning, which may give you a chuckle.
Our annual barbeque extravaganza is approaching in a few weeks and one of my jobs in preparation for this is to slaughter and butcher a yearling cow a neighbor raises for me. We need to let the meat cure for a few weeks obviously. I was just considering how our many young associatates on SimCountry would react to the realities of this process.LOL
You mean hamburgers are dead cow, mommy?
That's right, Virginia, your Happy Meal is an accessory to murder.
Back to you soon.
Bob |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Sunday, August 3, 2008 - 08:27 am
Love it! Never did the cattle (family were dairy primarily, had a few steers but always sent them to the local butcher)but did get to watch a couple of hogs. Too young to participate in that, although they let me help with the annual castration of same! And got to wield the hatchet on quite a few chickens.
You're right about much of the younger generation around the world, if things went poof a lot of them would have no clue.
Do I have to bring my own silverware?
'Til next time, Bob. |
| FarmerBob | Sunday, August 3, 2008 - 07:51 pm
Well, now that my work is done for the day, murdering an innocent bovine, I can get back to important matters.
Din't mean to get snotty in the above post. I was thinking of the green faces at watching an old school slaughter, skinning, gutting, and butchering taking place. Not to imply incompetence on anyone's part. It is not for the squeamish. Especially since we are wet-aging the meat. That means no .22 in the ear. We tie her up, hold her down, and slit the throat. For those who may be reading this and find that barbaric, it's the only way to remove the blood from the animal efficiently. It has to remain alive long enough to bleed out. Sorry, but that's just real life.
Robert. I must confess to scoping your country on GR and I have a question. By your choice of name for your capital, would you by any chance live next door to a major supply depot? Another naval one nearby? And an Army institution of higher education not too far down the road?
If so, I have been through your town. Way back when, I was at that Army school for a time and we were encouraged to take a tour of the logistics operation a few exits down the turnpike. One morning that we had off, three of us did just that. It was an interesting facility, and we stopped for lunch on the main street at a little irish type pub/restaurant that was next to one of those old fashioned, single screen movie theaters. Does this sound like your town? Sorry that I don't recall any of the names, but I remember the time we had of it getting out of there. The genius redleg who was driving us decided to take another route out of town, not the way we had come in, and we ended up in some ungodly traffic which led to some other highway that we could only enter going the opposite direction that we wanted. We ended up driving around one of the most inane highway systems I've seen until we got on a correct interstate headed back to the school. The 15 minute trip in was a 2 hour ordeal getting out! What is going on with your area, Robert? For such a small community, I have never seen midday traffic like that. Has it gotten any better?
The town itself seemed nice enough though. Cute little houses in those 50's brick style with big old trees lining the roadside. Very picturesque from what I recall.
If this is indeed your home and I'm not just getting senile, may I ask if you are taking advantage of your rural community's opportunities for more economical food supplies? The 15month old my wife is processing right now cost me $110 as a calf at auction and I paid my neighbor $200 for a year's feed and care. That's 300 bucks for what will be around 400lbs of prime beef. My neighbor sells his 2 year olds for only $400-450. I doubt the prices down your way are much higher. The process is actually very simple. You only need 2 knives, one very sharp and one medium so, and an 18inch hacksaw. Nearly every farm has a bobcat nowadays from which you can hang the carcass for skinning, gutting, and quartering. Only takes around 1 1/2 hours to do. If you think you might want to give it a try, let me know and I can post exact instructions for you. Really, I could talk you through the whole process in a few paragraphs. We do 2 a year in addition to the Party one and probably save $4000-5000 on beef. Poultry and pork aren't quite as economical to do yourself, however.
Well, enough meddling on my part, but the offer stands.
Be sure to let me know if I got the town right.
More to follow. My manliness is apparently required for some bonesawing at the moment.
Bob |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Monday, August 4, 2008 - 02:23 am
The pub was Coakley's, the theater was the West Shore. BTW, the theater still sells tickets for 4 dollars, if you don't mind second run. They usually lag 3-4 months behind on the movies. And bingo, you've nailed me again. The logistics depot used to be the Chinook repair depot for the US, but they transferred it out and brought a section of the naval depot over to replace the Chinooks.
The traffic situation was probably a result of change of shift at the Army depot. My Dad was based out of there, and although we live 5 minutes away it would take him over an hour to get home. They did finally get smart and install a series of traffic signals at strategic locations which has alleviated a portion, but not all of the difficulties.
It's not improving much, as our county has one of the fastest growing pops in the state. Many people from the "Beltway" are moving in because relative housing costs are substantially lower. What would run a mil around DC/Baltimore goes for about 350k here. With light rail being 40 miles down the road in Maryland, the commute time isn't that much greater than driving from the beltway area.
Absolutely am taking advantage of local situations. Don't do it myself, but a fellow who was a year ahead of me in school operates a farm just 2 miles away, and I purchase a half per year from him at VERY competitive pricing. The deep freeze does the trick, although I had to play hell last winter when we had a major ice storm. Lost electric for 3 days.
Damn, I'm out of time. I'm due at Julie's in 20 minutes. Will return later.
Bob |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Tuesday, August 5, 2008 - 02:33 am
Okay. I'm really chuckling over the turn the conversation took in the last couple posts.
I'm envisioning a member who also belongs to PETA having a breakdown right about now!
Another probable cause of the jam you ran into was because at the time there was only one access road onto post, and that was during the period when you actually had to stop at the guard shack and verify your identity. They have since added an access road at the back section of the post also.
Progress. When my folks first had the house built after coming from Japan, I could take my Brittany spaniel out the back door and walk for an entire hour before running into humanity.
There were meadows, a pond, even a walnut grove whose caretaker had long ago gone. There were pheasant, rabbit, deer, even red fox to be seen. The first couple years I did some small game and pheasant hunting.
Now if I spit real hard I can hit the property of one of the houses in the development behind me. Still have the small critters, but one of the neighbors had a vendetta against red fox and hunted them mercilessly, so they are all gone. Used to upset me to no end. The guy didn't do anything with the animal, he left it lie where he had killed it. And he did no real hunting, he just had a thing about fox. Hunting is good if you're going to use the meat or the fur, or if it is a "pest" animal, but I just don't like folks who kill because they can.
Still have the deer. They come down from the mountain at night and sleep in my backyard because they love my pear tree and apple tree. I don't mind sharing, it's kind of neat to look out the bedroom window and see the buck and his 4 or 5 doe (and their fawns in season) just kicking back snoozing. On top of that, I never need to buy any fertilizer for the grass!
All right, I still want to hear about your continuing adventures, so time permitting, do it to it.
Oh, I did accept the assignment in Arizona. They work a voucher type system, I pay up front and they reimburse. Don't think they've been on the road recently, 30 bucks a day is the cap. But it's a travel opp, and I convinced Julie to come along to keep me company. She's getting ready for another school year, so the summer is rapidly fading away. Three more weeks and she's back to the grind. We leave Saturday, so things may be a little sporadic for a bit. That's probably the one thing that I have a hard time dealing with in the game, the rapidly running clock. Wasn't much of a problem when I went to Bermuda, I had just started the country from scratch, so not hands on managing it was probably better than if I had. But now things have progressed to where if I miss a month it's a lot harder to catch back up. And you can't automate to tell your Presidents to buy 4 elementary schools each month, 1 hospital, and 1.5 times the monthly use of each ammo type. WAAAHHHH! Such a crybaby, jeez.
Hit the keys, don't leave me in suspense about your TWO voluntary trips to that particular Southeast Asian "paradise".
If I smell your barbecue from my house, expect to see me! lol. Used to go to an annual pig roast in a county north of here. Would get 40-50 people, everyone would bring tents, etc. and we'd make a weekend of it. But the owners donated the land to the Boy Scouts about 6 years ago, so don't do that any more. There's just something in the flavor of outdoor cooking that is irresistable.
Bob |
| FarmerBob | Tuesday, August 5, 2008 - 05:51 am
Wonderful to hear of your continuing professional progress. Should be a fun trip. I would recommend taking I76 out to I70 to I55 to I44 to US60 to US70 to I25 to I10, but that's just me. LOL I'm sure you can mapquest or whatever, but I'll let you ponder on your trip how I know the way to go off the top of my head.
Hint: It has something to do with my post-post retirement profession.
I liked your home area from what I recall. Carlisle was a neat old town, surrounded with farms. Lots of corn in that region still?
You needn't tell me about developement. The old farm road that winds out our valley is actually congested in the mornings with all the yuppies who've settled out here. And we are RURAL. They have to drive at least an hour to get anywhere they work, I'm sure. Half the people out here must call off in the Winter. We get a bit more snow up here than you Pennsyltuckians.
Lots of whitetail are around here as well and we have no shortage of fox either. My property is posted and I haven't hunted in years. Gina never cared for vennison and I can take it or leave it. During Deer season we can get as many as 50 holed up on the mountainside and I put out feed for them. Not a PETA type, just don't need the meat and don't want yahoos shooting anywhere nearby.
Break Break |
| FarmerBob | Tuesday, August 5, 2008 - 06:40 am
Sorry. Minor interruption.
Last week, I got my 11 year old grandson off of the computer for long enough to take a walk with me and the dogs. My Basset scared up a copperhead in some rocks and I got to show him how to catch and kill it. Though we weren't going to actually cook it up, I gutted and skinned it so he could see how it's done. The dogs were happy enough to get the meat. He thought the whole thing was pretty neat. The copperheads are the only creatures here that I will destroy when I find them. Just too dangerous to have around. Kids and dogs don't have the sense to let them be.
Let the PETA folks chew on that.LOL
Don't sweat the game stuff. As long as you're under war protection, you can let things run for a couple of weeks untended.
So what exactly is it that you're reporting on Tuscon?
I seem to recall some billboards advertising some historical sites in the area. Also recall seeing some strange ones for a big green something? Let me know if you find out what that is if you see them.
The heat will be considerable, but it is very dry. No oppressive humidity like the East here. Just remember to hydrate.LOL
I have been thinking about what to say about my 2 Nam tours. Haven't thought about those times in a long while. There's alot that I really don't want to go back to. It's not that anything is overly traumatic, it's merely that much of it just isn't really fit for public discussion like this. I need to work on what I would like to touch upon a little more.
I will see if I can't get something posted before you go on Saturday.
Back to you soon and continue to keep the discussion going on the other thread. I do enjoy when our learned colleagues get motivated enough to contribute to those discussions.
Regards,
Bob |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Tuesday, August 5, 2008 - 09:05 am
Good to hear from you so quick.
I'll have to ponder in a Sherlockian manner your knowledge of the most efficient route to Tucson. If it were part of your military experience I would say Ft. Huachuca (spelling doesn't seem right). Spent a couple weeks as a youngster there while Dad did whatever he did.
Either way, we won't drive out. Air is the way to go, that way we won't be toast when we arrive. Heck, the 2 hour drive to Philly and back once a month to see my buddy and also Julie's sister about does me in any more! And to think that when I was at Knox I thought nothing of jumping in the car on the Friday of midmonth and eom pay and cruising 10 hours back home to spend Friday night, Sat, and back in the car after church Sunday morning! Age.
Still a decent bit of agriculture around the area, although like most places in the country the family farm is rapidly disappearing. The young are not interested in the amount of work involved for the limited financial benefit. And every time a farmer passes on, the developers are knocking on the next of kin's door right after the funeral to make offers on the land. One of my friends' grandfathers owned 180 acres (just a homestead in Iowa, but a big deal here), and when he passed on it was an immediate bidding war. The property, which had originally been way out of town, was on the edge of town when Mike's grandfather died. The sad end to that story is that one of the children had convinced the old man they would continue to farm it after the old man's passing, so the grandfather left monetary bequests to the rest of the family and left the land to the "asshat". Guy never had any intention of farming the land, and grandfather didn't stipulate that in the will, so one guy became an overnight multimillionaire. And the property is now home to 2 developments, a strip mall, and a church. The court battle dragged on for almost a year, but the bad guys took the battle that time. I've seen it happen way too often after someone who works their entire life to build something dies and the vultures come out of the woodwork.
Back to the discussion. Tangentializing again.
You used the term dogs plural, and mentioned a basset in particular. What other types of dog do you have? Always had a dog growing up. Mostly spaniels, they were my folks favorite. My Brittany was a piece of work. Kept him outside during the day and brought him in at night. That boy could tell the difference between a salesman and a legitimate visitor to the house. Could he bark and snarl! But never bothered the postman or the meter readers or any family friends. Have a Golden retriever now named Caesar. And he thinks he really is. He'll be in heaven while we're away because he'll be over at Julie's parents along with his sister, who belongs to Jul. Saves on kennel fees!
Got a chuckle out of your comment about the heat. I was born in Mesa, although I only spent 3 years of my life there. Had a great-Aunt and Uncle who owned a Harley shop, so went back for fairly frequent visits until they passed on. Still have some cousins out in that neck of the woods. You are right that it's a drier heat, but as I tell everyone who says that to me: 110 is still hot no matter how dry it is! LOL
I was about your grandson's age when my cousins turned me on to rattlesnake hunting on a visit out there. Of course it's more diamondbacks and sidewinders in that neighborhood, but a rattler is a rattler. Actually the meat isn't too bad. I was leery of it at first but came around after tasting it. My parents favorite saying when they wanted me to eat something that I KNEW was going to taste godawful was "go on, it tastes just like chicken!" Yeah, right.
I could go on for a long rant about PETA, but will just say one thing. They have never actually done any farming. Their claim that milking a cow is abusive is a crock. Any animal husbandry person will tell you that a milk cow will die if not milked. That seems a little more abusive to me.
Loads of historical Old West sites in and around Tucson, as well as lots of abandoned silver mines. Although every town had a "Boot Hill" cemetary, the one in Tucson is the most well known and has the graves of some of the most famous and infamous from that period of history.
They have a tourist attraction outside the city which is a reproduction of Tucson as it was back in the day, and reenactors relive gunfights and the whole nine yards. Similar to Williamsburg, VA. The mockup has been used in numerous movies through the years.
Realistically, I could do the research here at home, but the magazine wants photo accompaniment, and that I can't do from home. What they're looking for is an article on how life really was, not the way it was and is portrayed in fiction and film. In reality, the good guys weren't always good, the bad guys not always bad. One example: The gunfight at the OK Corral, memorialized as a duel between the good guys (Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday, et al) and the evil Clanton gang, was actually murder. The Clanton's had thrown out their weapons in surrender before the first shot was fired, according to eyewitness accounts. As they came out of hiding Doc Holliday shot them down. The "good guys" then routed out and killed the remaining outlaws.
The only big green anything I know of offhand is the Saguaro cacti, but I'll check out the scene and give you a report.
I can understand fully your reluctance to discuss some of your experiences across the ocean. As a wise General once said "War is Hell." And another wise General said "It's a good thing war is Hell, or we'd get too used to it."
Think I mentioned my Dad served as a Tank Commander in the Korean War. He would talk about all the inane parts, but would not talk about some of the brutality he saw or any details of actual combat. My favorite story of his was how, during one of the fluid periods of the war, his unit found itself with a Chinese unit between them and the rear. The commanding officer of the unit wanted his mail, so he detailed two platoons of tanks to traverse enemy lines (twice) so he could get his "damned Sears and Roebuck catalog". The good news is that in the afteraction report when the situation stabilized that CO was transferred to a "REMF" unit. Dad told it as a humorous tale, but I know now, after doing my time, there wasn't much humor involved in trying to sneak through enemy lines with freakin' tanks.
But apparently Dad was of a mind along with yours. He rotated out, and six months later went right back for a second tour.
Will make an effort on the other thread, I also enjoy reading thoughts of people who have a clue, whether I agree with them or not. There are some pretty impressive people in this community. In an online game? Who woulda thunk it?
will probably abandon the forum for the week we're out there. Since it's onsite, will need to spend a lot of time transposing written notes onto my laptop, and getting some semblance of continuity out of it. Never had an assignment which combines photo and words before. And the article is due Monday the 18th, so not much time to roll it out. And of course we will have to sample the nightlife and restaurants in the area.
I don't do McDonald's when I'm traveling! And Jul wants to cross the border one day. so if you don't hear from me for a bit worry not. As Douglas Mac is alleged to have said "I shall return!"
Bob |
| Michael Morrison (Little Upsilon) | Thursday, August 7, 2008 - 07:11 am
Sorry to interrupt you guys' little conversation here, but:
JMR:
"Will make an effort on the other thread, I also enjoy reading thoughts of people who have a clue, whether I agree with them or not. There are some pretty impressive people in this community. In an online game? Who woulda thunk it?"
I'm flattered! *blushes* lol |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Thursday, August 7, 2008 - 07:01 pm
MM, feel free to jump in if you are so inclined. As Farmer says in an earlier part of this thread, we're just a couple of "old farts" discussing this and that.
Watch your head doesn't get so big you can't get through the door! lol |
| FarmerBob | Friday, August 8, 2008 - 05:58 pm
Robert, Have a productive and enjoyable trip. I will attempt to get something posted while you are away next week. It should be available for your critique upon your return.
Don't forget your sunscreen and spanish dictionary. LOL
Regards,
Bob |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Friday, August 8, 2008 - 07:24 pm
Si, senor, gracias. No habla anglais. Vaya con dios, Roberto. |
| Michael Morrison (White Giant) | Friday, August 8, 2008 - 10:11 pm
lol it's already too late for that I think JMR |
| FarmerBob | Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 07:48 am
Ok Robert. Here we go. I will try to do this in manageable installments.
Upon completion of BCT, 11B AIT, and Jump School, I was assigned to a line company in one of the Airborne Divisions that wasn't deployed to Nam. A gift from heaven and that noble E7 recruiter who was looking out for me, right?
A rational man would have seen the truth of the situation, but the ignorant boy I was saw things differently.
I found permanent party stateside to be incredibly boring. I was disappointed by how easy my training had been. I was arrogant and cocky.
Stories abounded about how bad "Charlie" was and how dangerous Nam was. If one believed the hype, one would think that no one could possibly survive a years tour, even though the proof was standing right there, telling the war stories. I smelled a lot of Bravo Sierra and was intrigued rather than scared.
Therefore, after a few months, I put my name in for rotation to Vietnam. At the time, one could request to be placed in the individual replacement pool, and as you can imagine, there were never enough volunteers. Everyone from my platoon Sergeant to my Company Commander tried to talk some sense in to me, but in the hubris of my youth, I wasn't having any.
In a few weeks time, I was headed to SouthEast Asia without the faintest idea of what I had gotten myself into. Upon landing "in country", I was faced with a placement interview conducted by a very bored looking E5 who would determine where I would be assigned. Reviewing my 201, he said laconically
"volunteered, huh? If you want to kill gooks, I have just the thing for ya. Ever hear of "lurps"? Those boys are badass and live in the bush. Ya want it?"
In my eloquent ignorance, I shrugged and said "sure."
Thus with same amount of thought I had given my military career to date, none, did I set on the path which would determine the course of the rest of my life. |
| FarmerBob | Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 09:55 am
Part II.
I won't go into detail about to which unit I was assigned or LRRPs in general. There are quite a few memoirs published by former Rangers, SF troopers, and veterans of the other recon units. The tactics were all much the same as were the missions. I doubt my experiences were very different from anyone else's. We were small teams that went into Charlie's backyard to hunt. Our job was to remain invisible until we chose not to be and the Vietnam LRRPs were very good at their jobs. Specifically, due to my size, I was the natural choice to "hump the pig." Our team primarily conducted ambushes on small groups of VC or occasionally NVA in our AO. In military terms, we were tasked with the interdiction of lines of supply and communication in remote areas beyond the operational range of conventional forces.
I will share, however, my impressions and life lessons gained from this time as well a few anectdotes of personal significance.
Firstly, the individuals with whom I shared nearly every moment of my time that first year were closer than brothers. The six men of a LRRP must trust each other implicitly and function as one. We knew everything about each other from family to personal quirks. Never before or since have I been as close to a group of friends. Our TL was a 21 year old E6, and the rest of us were just 18-19 year old kids. We humped, sweated, fed mesquitos, ate, slept, swore, fantasized about round eyed women, got drunk, fought, killed, and bled together as a family. I hated and loved every minute of that time.
Secondly, our team was a good one. We quickly gained a reputation for being deadly, but more importantly, very lucky. In that first tour, we lost no one. Though some of us were "dinged" several times, our team remained intact. That was rare in LRRPs. Casualties were higher in those units than the average and more than a few teams went out and simply never returned.
I will mention that I got my wife's favorite scar on this tour. A B40 rocket fragment sliced open my right arm at the bicep. It was stiched up and bandaged in the field and went untreated for several days. The resulting scar looks just like the Nike swoosh. It starts mid bicep next to my "worm" and curves across 8 inches to the triceps. Gina always loved it.LOL Too bad the rest of mine aren't nearly so pretty.
At the end of our year long tour, four of us volunteered for another. The other two were not cowards or letting us down in any way. They were married guys who had done their time and more than earned their ticket home, but the rest of us would remain together for the time being. |
| FarmerBob | Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 10:25 am
On to the big picture lessons.
First and foremost, I learned this important fact
War sucks.
There is nothing glorious or heroic about it. Even a lifetime and several more combat experiences later, I cannot find anything good to say about what happens when human beings decide to kill each other en masse.
There are no innocents.
Only victims of the same madness.
And in the world we live in, it still remains an essential part of the human condition.
But for those who then and now would paint the American military with the same brush as our adversaries, I have the unfortunate memories of reality to expose the great lie of their views.
I saw death in all its forms. That which was brought to civilians through carelessness, incompetence, or simple indifference on our part.
Women and children who wanted nothing more than to live their lives died for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
That which we inflicted with cold calculation and deliberation on our enemy, uniformed and not.
But I will never, NEVER, forget that which I saw done to a small hamlet by a group of VC cadre who caught the village headman playing both sides of the street. I won't recount the smallest detail here. I can't put into words what happened to those people and have no desire to do so.
But, I will say that nothing I witnessed or ever heard of occuring to civilians as a result of American actions can compare to what I saw that day.
It was done deliberately, methodically, and for no other reason than the politics of the day by sane individuals who would be considered heroes to their cause.
When I see America compared to those we fight by those who haven't been there to witness the reality, I only wish I could take them back to that place in my mind.
Enough for now. |
| FarmerBob | Friday, August 15, 2008 - 06:59 am
To momentarily switch topics, we have 4 dogs at the moment. Three are adopted and one was a present for Gina when she got back from Italy a few years back. We have a Basset named Molly that turned up down the valley last year. Around 5 years old according to the vet. Not long after, we adopted a medium Golden Retriever named Sarah from a local family that was moving. She is 3. Another Shepard mutt was found last fall hanging around a local farm and we took him in. That is Sam and he somewhere around 10. And completing the managerie is a 3lb miniature Maltese I bought for Gina. She is 3 and named Maya. Care to guess who the alpha of the pack is?
LOL
I will get into my second tour shortly, as that year had the most impact on my career. I'm still not comfortable with what I've written. I don't want to go into a lecture on small unit tactics of the war or get into gruesome details of the nature of that sort of combat; but, I feel like I've left out so much that I don't particularly want to get into.
Does that make sense?
I need your feedback.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Bob |
| Michael Morrison (White Giant) | Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 12:35 am
Bob, I feel it is important that people who have been through all of that, and experienced, and seen what you have experienced and saw, to recount their stories to others who have been so lucky and privileged, such as myself, to have never had to do what you did.
You may not have to come out and say anything publicly, if you do not feel so inclined, but maybe write a journal and write down some of your experiences. As hard as it may be for you to reveal your inner-most feelings, of everything you have done or saw in war, it is important that you get these things out eventually. Mostly for future generations. The next generation coming, such as my little neice and nephew, who are currently 5 years old, should be taught the horrors of war, so that they would not have as likelyhood of a chance for actually seeing it themselves. Noone deserves that, period!
The more war-vet stories that are published, the more the public may come to hate war with a passion, and would urge their leaders to try to work out differences with other countries in a political fashion, rather than through arms. If was not for people like Anne Frank, Elie Wiesel, and some of the private thoughts of the Japanese admiral who attacked Pearl Harbor, and countless other, nameless soldiers who have written some of these things down, we would have no idea what kind of conditions these people are in during war-time. Wiesel's story is perhaps the most touching one I have ever read. The title: Night, is powerful in itself, and I believe is one of the main forces of people speaking out against atrocities such as Darfur, and Tibet. Even you, FarmerBob, your story, if published, could have an impact on producing negative views towards war in general, and positive views towards the way in which America conducts war compared to other nations.
I find it funny how people keep talking about a possible war between China and the USA, but I just do not see that as a possiblity in any kind of future at all, and I thank God every day for that. I can see a few, smaller wars conducted more on a regional scale in order to depose brutal dictators who are mad-men, but to wage a war between any of the major nations of the world, who are either stable, or are in the the process of stablizing is completely mad in itself.
China has been improving for the better part of a decade now, the people are slowly, but surely beginning to become more liberal in their views. They are slowly getting more freedoms with each passing year. Still does not excuse the tortures, and killings, and unjust jailings that are going on, but at least it is improving. I am still sceptical on the things that are being said about China in the Olympics, but I have known about all the improvements going on in China, even when I was in HS.
Like I have said, I for one, am very grateful towards people such as yourself that is willing (even if a little naive) to go war so that someone who may be a coward, again, such as myself, would not have to.
Even IF I wanted to sign up for the military (I tried getting into the army after highchool), they would'nt let me, because I have screwed up my ankle quite a bit. The doc said, the last time that I busted up my ankle while in college, said the next time I tear those ligaments, I would be walking with a cane for the rest of my life. I broke them both various times while playing sports, such as baseball (my twins fault) and football (again, my twins fault, lol!), and basketball (my fault that time....kinda...).Anyways, that is a pretty long story. I will save it for another time....maybe...
But yeah, I think you should at least write your Vietnam experiences down, even if it is in a journal. That way your not keeping anything in. And maybe you would decide to have it published someday, and in case you do have the urging to get it out in public, you'll already have it down. |
| FarmerBob | Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 05:59 am
Thank you for the kind words, Michael.
I should elabroate, however, on the seeming contradiction of my views.
I have seen the carnage and suffering we wreak upon each other and have indeed learned to hate war. That said, I know that the only way to avoid war is to prepare vigorously for it. That is a very old aphorism, but it remains so because of its central truth regarding the human condition.
Real evil exists in the world because it exists in the human heart. There will always be those that will act on the negative tendencies in all of us. Or worse, those who will inflict evils in the name of a greater good.
I know why we were in Vietnam. I know what role I played in the conflict. I don't agree with nearly anything in terms of the what, where, when, and how of the manner in which we conducted that conflict.
But I fully comprehend and agree with the WHY.
We drew a line in the sand for the Sino/Soviet Bloc. We let them know that we would spend lives and treasure on the third world battlefield. It had to be done at some point. The alternative was an ever shrinking free world with and expanding and more powerful dictatorial enemy.
This is why I continued to serve for over 20 years further.
War sucks. But they must be fought lest we become slaves to those with the willingness to use force.
I wish I had a more optimistic worldview. Your assessment of the decreasing probability of WWII style wars of existence between major powers is accurate, I believe. For God help us all if we fight another world war with todays technology.
However, the rate of change in the cultures and societies of the nations of the world is accelerating. Another maxim of political science is that change spawns violence. The fighting will continue.
We in the West take for granted our societal progress, but much of the world still remains in a darker, more primitive place. I say this not in arrogance or belief in inherent superiority, but rather in the sense of an experienced adult witnessing the antics of teens.
It just is what it is.
Thank you for the encouragement, and I am attempting to express some very complex emotions in my own mind as I labor to place my life's experiences into some kind of perspective that would make sense to others.
Regards,
FarmerBob |
| Michael Morrison (White Giant) | Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 07:23 am
Oh! I totally agree on the importance of us being prepared for war. There is never any doubt about that. I would much prefer to use anything and everything in our power to defuse such situations, whether through sports, dialogue, or any other alternative means at our disposal.
War should ALWAYS be the very last resort.
Cuba is another nation that I can think of that I can see becoming more liberal, like China is now, in the future. Which is why I am glad we never went to real war against that nation. Fidel's brother has instituted 2 new freedoms, that may seem really minor, but in actuality is quite a big step forward:
The Cuban people are now allowed to stay in hotels and own cell phones. That may seem quite ridiculous to us, especially considering that a good 80% of that population could not even AFFORD such "luxuries." But it IS a step in the right direction. That will be the legacy of the brother of Fidel (can't think of his name.)
The Castros' predecessors may institute even more, wide-sweeping, changes.
There are many other developing third world countries in the same boat. The last thing we should do is have any kind of conflict with these countries.
The only conflict we should wage are against the stable dictatorships, that are going nowhere, such as Iran.
I believe that N.Korea caould, in the near future, begin to take those early steps like China and Cuba because of the pressure between the US and China on that country. I know there are still talks to unifying the Koreas, which I would love to see happen. Bush is an idiot by labeling N. Korea the way he did. It only stalled the unification process.
I do not excuse the brutalities of Kim Jong Il's regime, but maybe his predecessors will begin some reforms there. The last thing we need to do is to rock the boat over there.
If this post spawns a large debate with other people, I will not participate. I only have hope for the future, that is all. |
| FarmerBob | Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 07:50 am
Yes, societies across the globe are becoming more liberal. However, have we forgotten that relatively modern, "liberal" societies have found reason for conflict in the past?
Wars tend to be about economic consequences of population pressures. Plenty of those pressures are around the world and will likely intensify.
Question for you to ponder.
What were the ideological and societal differences between the belligerents of WWI, Franco-Prussian, Crimean War, etc? |
| FarmerBob | Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 08:35 am
On a personal note, Michael. Feel free to jump in as you like. The two Roberts are just gabbing and he is helping me experiment with my writing, but this is not a closed conversation.
And never apologize even indirectly for not having worn a uniform. Many good men never have and many boys did that shouldn't have. |
| Michael Morrison (White Giant) | Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 10:42 pm
I guess all those wars had at least one thing in common: Extreme nationalism.
No matter how liberal a country is, there is still going to be rather fervant nationalist feelings towards ones own country, making it almost impossible to there never being a war somewhere on the globe. So I guess I agree with ya there.
No matter how much you say to never apologize for never wearing a uniform, there is still that guilt factor when you see a few of your friends being sent off to war straight from high school.
The summer after I graduated, which was just after 9/11, is when I tried signing up for the air force. They asked if I have ever had any kind of injuries, and I said yes, I busted my ankle twice. They sent me to a hospital to have x-rays taken to see if there is scar tissue. There was. A whole lot of it. I was rejected...lol even though we were at war.
Deep down, I was always glad of that, and that's where some of the guilt comes in I guess.
But yeah, anyways, carry on! |
| FarmerBob | Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 05:10 am
Michael. Your friends volunteered. Drafts been gone for a long time now. If you think you have something for which to atone, donate a few bucks to some of the veteran's charities. Other than that, don't even waste a moment of life thinking about it. We choose our own paths.
My point about the conflicts of past is that simlar societies are perfectly capable of coming to blows. Every nation on Earth could become a representative democracy with a free market economy and we would still have wars. |
| Michael Morrison (White Giant) | Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 07:25 am
Well, yeah, there will still be wars between representative democracies. Look at Iran. The people do elect their president (i think? His title IS "President of Iran" after all. But I do not know how Iran's government works, or how it is run)
Countries can hold elections, but does not mean they are fair, or there is no or very little corruption. Happens in Africa all the time.
But the countries in question, such as China and N.Korea, can become perfectly good model democracies decades from now. When that happens to countries like that, the likelihood for them to go against another, similar democratic society, is much reduced.
Sorry, I dunno about donating any money to vet charities, at least for the time being. I have no dispossible income at all. As things stand, I can barely afford to so much as feed myself, and to put gas in my car just to get to my 2 crappy part time jobs, while going to school part time as well. But when I am done and making a lot of extra money, I'll think about lol.
There are other charities I would like to support though. |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 07:46 pm
Hey guys! The prodigal son has returned. Some interesting conversations here while I was away.
Bob, your approach to your war experiences is so on target. If you will note in those other books you referenced, the true heroes do not glorify what they did. War IS hell, and sane and rational men get no enjoyment from it. I had an E7 friend at Knox who had been in an LRRP unit in Nam, he told me about the methods employed by the NVA "political education units". It's much better not to go into detail.
But as long as there is evil in the world, and good men (and women) willing to risk their lives to combat it, there will be war. And where there is war, there will be innocents, and innocence, lost.
Is there such a thing as a "just" war? I would like to think that war to free an oppressed people or to prevent genocide are justifiable reasons for conflict. But I am contradicted by reality. The Bosnian conflict was to stop the genocide and "ethnic cleansing" (such a noble sounding piece of crap)of the Muslim population in the region by the Serbs. The result? Hundreds of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues burned to the ground, Albanian "death squads" running rampant killing and displacing "infidels" in order to establish the Muslim nation of Kosovo.
The situation in Iraq needs no discussion here, other than to say that IMO the effort to make war "cleaner" does NOT serve any useful purpose. It causes the reverse, it gives the enemy guaranteed "safe zones" from which to operate, and gives a propaganda bonanza to said enemy when things go wrong.
There was an old Star Trek episode that struck me when I saw it, and stays with me yet today. In the story there were two planets who had been at war for thousands of years. But they never fired a shot, everything was done by computer simulations. When the battle results were in, each planet sent the appropriate number of "casualties" to a death chamber. No muss, no fuss. No weapons systems or ammo to buy, in fact no military needed at all. As "clean" as it gets, except that people were still being killed. As Kirk and Spock point out after destroying the computers, war is SUPPOSED to be horrific so that people will do all they can to avoid it.
It is to your credit, Robert, that you can hate war and it's consequences and yet recognize the need to be prepared. All great military men have held the same opinion. Anyone who has not been in a leadership position during a combat situation cannot fully comprehend the agony a military officer goes through when he gives the order that he knows may result in the loss of some of his men.
Don't have a lot of time, just got back last night and need to finalize and ship my article.
Will make an effort to return tomorrow.
Hi, MM! See you've joined in on our conversation. Funny you mentioned to Bob about writing a journal, that's what got this whole thing started, I suggested the same. Welcome aboard. |
| FarmerBob | Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 08:49 pm
Welcome home, Robert.
I trust all went well? Be sure to tell us about your trip before jumping back into my lessons.
Good to have you back. I was forced to argue politics in your absence which always gets me into trouble.lol
Take your time getting settled in and I look forward to hearing from you soon.
Bob. |
| Michael Morrison (White Giant) | Monday, August 18, 2008 - 02:00 am
lmao, considering I have not seen this thread bumped in a while, I just wanted to look to see what you two were up to.
I was trying to humor farmerbob a bit sine you did not seem to be a round for a while, jmr.
I thought maybe he would get a bit lonely.
The newer war movies, with all the new graphics, and the great acting kind of gives me an idea of what real battles are like.
The old black and white war movies don't really seem to do much justice compared to flicks such as Saving Private Ryan, Letters from Iwo Jimma, and Band of Brothers.
After watching Letters, it kind of struck me how people...ordinary people I mean, who happen to be born in a different country ends up shooting eachother. When in fact, those very same people could be real close friends instead. The one scene where the American was captured by the Japs, and the Japanese commander translated a letter from his mother that was in the dead Americans' hand for the rest of his unit.
Watching the Olympics you see the same thing. Whenever you see a someone win gold, it is the mothers the cameras focus on. The athletes try to greet their mothers before anyone else. It happened with Phelps. And it happened with Usain Bolt after he beat the world record in the 100m sprint. Bolt's mother was very entertaining to watch. She completely flipped out. lol.
But yeah, the point is is that no mothers' sons should have to be killed in war. It is a horrible thing that happens. Sometimes necessary, but still no less horrible. |
| FarmerBob (Little Upsilon) | Monday, August 18, 2008 - 02:34 am
Which truth, Michael, you have identified the reason I participate in this little game. The fundamental connection between idividuals from all over the world via the internet is one of my greatest hopes for the progress of mankind.
PS the politics comment was about the ones going on in the General section. not here.lol |
| Michael Morrison (White Giant) | Monday, August 18, 2008 - 06:29 am
LOL no worries. I enjoy a good argument sometimes. I am 1/2 Sicilian and 1/2 Roman blooded....with a Scottish last name. That is kind of a long story, don't really feel like getting into it right now, LOL.
Like I was saying, even if that comment WAS directed towards this thread, there would not have been any offense taken by any means.
Anyway, I think your right about the internet. I think I have more foreign "friends" through the use of the internet than I do American "friends" through the net. In fact, there are more foreigners than Americans that I always seem to come across, which goes to show me that America really is not as dominant as we, here, tend to think.
The whole internet thing is also one of the largest driving forces behind China's reformation that has been on-going for about a decade now. As large, powerful, and dominating as their government is over peoples' everyday lives, it is extremely difficult for them to control EVERYTHING that comes through.
I think if China actually did come to an about face and eventually becomes a democratic society with a free and open market, and the new government apologizes for its past mistakes, and teaches their children about those mistakes the way Germany does about the Holocaust, I could come to love that nation nearly as much as I love most of the Western Powers. I have always been a bit fascinated with the Chinese culture (as well as Japanese), and I sincerely do believe China has great potential in instituting tons of reforms in the near future. |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 06:19 am
Another short one folks, RL is beginning to turn into a real trip.
Visit in Tucson was quite a bit of fun, learned some things, ate some decent food, did a Fred Flintstone and drank some cactus juice, did one night on the town (REALLY getting too old to be dancing, one of the problems with a girlfriend 10 years younger!), and took a day trip to Mexico. Would NOT want to be there after dark though. And in spite of all that I got some work accomplished.
Will send both of you a PM with a message I don't want to go public with at the moment. Nothing mysterious, just want to keep it "in the family", so to speak.
Until next time, Bob. |
| Michael Morrison (White Giant) | Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 07:41 pm
Good for you Robert! I spent some time in San Diego for 3 months at my brother's place. I wandered into Tijuana by myself just to say I stepped foot in Mexico. I told my bro about it and he laid into me! Not to worry, I stuck in all the touristy type places though. I was not stupid enough to wander outside of those places, and kept my wallet in the front of my jeans at all times.
I also know how to defend myself if need be. I have no desire to cross back into that country. There are plenty of great places and things to see and do here in the US anyway.
I would like to go to Arizona sometime, but is kind of low down on my list of places to go right now. |
| JMR32 (Golden Rainbow) | Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 04:42 am
San Diego is a neat city, although the illegals problem is pretty severe.
Believe it or not, keeping your wallet in your front pocket is not any safer than your back pocket. The best way(s) are to either use a chain or a money belt. What say you Farmer, you spent some time in Rome, one of the "pickpocket capitals" of the world? Would you say the front pocket is a safe place for the wallet?
MM, you're right, there's a lot of things to see and do here in the US. I've been in all 50, it's hard to say which is my favorite, although Alaska ranks in the top 3.
I'm glad you spent some time outside the state. You'd be amazed how many people from Pennsylvania never go west of the Mississippi River. The Jersey shore, the states around PA, and for a major trip they might go to Florida, but they just don't want to cross the "Big Muddy" for some reason.
Farmer, didn't get to do any rattlesnake hunting while I was out there, but did put on a pair of cowboy boots and take a trek out to an abandoned silver mine (on horseback no less) as part of my research. Too bad it wasn't the "Lost Dutchman's" mine!
Saw my one cousin and his family one day. Makes me realize how "tempus fugit" when his YOUNGEST daughter talked about graduating college this year coming up. Had to laugh, his hair is completely gray, and he doesn't have all that much of it left. Told him that's what kids will do to you!
MM, as the Duke would have said in the movies "Smile when you say that" about Arizona being low on your list. You HAVE heard of John Wayne I hope? I was born in Mesa, Arizona. The hospital I was born in is now a strip mall. Progress.
As the saying goes "it's been fun, but I've gotta run", will make another effort tomorrow. |
| FarmerBob | Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 05:21 am
The socks for your cash, gentlemen. But to be on the safe side, keep a browning hi-power in the wasteband. It discourages thievery. |
| Michael Morrison (White Giant) | Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 07:12 pm
lol I'm the kind of guy that keeps my hands in my pockets. Especially if I am in an unfamiliar place outside of my hometown. That is why I keep the wallet in the front pockets. It is kind of tiresome, but hell of a lot better than losing a bunch of travelers' checks, my ID, and all that good stuff.
BTW, other than all the eastern states, I have only been to Baja, Nevada, and California in the US. I been up to Niagra Falls when I was a kid.
I have also been to Europe twice (Sicily, Italy, Southern France, Germany - Bergen -Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau.)
The second time we spent most of our time in Rome, and Venice.
My next big journey is either to China, Japan, Australia, of Brazil, hence, the reason 'Zona is low down on my list....
And yes, I have heard of John Wayne. For an old, frozen guy, he's pretty famous. |
