| Synicus (White Giant) | Wednesday, June 8, 2011 - 06:58 am 
the republic of votchie has entered war with no reserve ammo. This two year old country also owns a navy and a space program. This aid money might as well go directly to the lenders. |
| Josias (White Giant) | Wednesday, June 8, 2011 - 07:06 pm
well first, perhaps Jo can clear things up, its her proposal...
but just making an over view of the country, this player is stuck, he might have made some aggressive mistakes, but my guess, is that with out a bail out, the player may not stay with us. 3T seems a small price to pay for that
not that any agruement will change the 100+ no votes in general voting. a snow ball has a better chance in hell than any one on WG getting aid. |
| NiAi (Little Upsilon) | Wednesday, June 8, 2011 - 10:55 pm
It would seem one need to first make all stats visible and have completely gone peaceful for ppl to even consider a yes... no meaning in throwing cash down a black-hole heading to default.
Also, mass PMs also helps. |
| Synicus (White Giant) | Thursday, June 9, 2011 - 12:14 am
We should not be liable for new player mistakes, or I'd want to interview them all. As far as I can tell, no one is advising him or her, just proposing to give them cash, thus a quagmire.
If the player isn't patient enough to stick around and learn from mistakes, then SC is not for them. |
| warfreak (White Giant) | Thursday, June 9, 2011 - 12:24 am
Why would aid be given to a person who will just spend aid money on their military? Aid is meant to restructure the economy, fix it up, get it back into shape.
This person only cares about getting more and more weapons. The reason why it will attract so many no votes is that people who vote no have gone through this step, and restructured.
Without his beginner's bonus, he would be losing -20B a month. No amount of aid will stop that. If the council loves throwing cash at what will only end up in a quagmire, I got some ideas to run by you. |
| Josias (White Giant) | Thursday, June 9, 2011 - 03:26 pm
so, as long as you don't make any mistakes, you still wont get a bail out, because then you would need it.
the SC has 583T in cash. some how, i don't think any one is going to suffer by giving this guy 3T
in fact, in this scenario , the only person who is being put out is the newb that can use some help.
you know, W3C has spent years going out of their way to make the game easier for new players. and have justified allot of unpopular changes based on making the game easier for new players. having the attitude the not players are smart enough, or dependable enough to play this game... well, its a game, get over yourself |
| Navamin (White Giant) | Thursday, June 9, 2011 - 06:24 pm
There is absolutely no reason to have that much money stockpiled away. People don't want to part with it, so clearly the GM will have to do something different with that money. Maybe allow us to buy shares of it. |
| Jo Salkilld (White Giant) | Thursday, June 9, 2011 - 11:26 pm
This game advertises itself as an empire-building game. Is it surprising that new players want to build empires?
We live in a right-now generation. People expect quick results and the game attracts young players who are used to getting them. As of now, too many new players are lost because they don't see results within the first couple of weeks of playing, and the GMs have tried to adapt the game to give them what they seek. However, those of us who have been playing for a while know that that's not the way to succeed. Patience is the key.
This player was no different. He joined, he wanted to see something happening. He got extra weapons via the new players' bonuses and assumed he could use them to take a second country and start 'building an empire'. We see this time and time again.
At the point at which he asked me for advice, he still expected that. I messaged him a few times and tried to explain the way it works, but game messages are very limited and this game is very complicated. It took a while to convince him. By the time I did, he had already declared on a C3. To his credit, he didn't try to declare war on another player. How many times have we seen n00bs come in, all guns blazing? Good for a laugh, but we know they'll never stick around. This player just wants to build an empire, and who can blame him?
I encouraged him to join our federation forum, where we can talk at more length - although we havne't accepted him as a fed member yet - and he now understands that focussing on his economy has to be the first priority. He has stopped buying weapons - check his country graphs if you don't believe me - and abandoned his aim to take a C3. He now realises he has no chance of achieving it without sorting out his country first.
Josias has absolutely the right attitude. Giving him aid doesn't take money away from anyone else. The cash comes from the magic coffers created by the GMs. It might not work. He may give up because he wants instant gratification. I very rarely propose aid packages but, of the many players who contact me to ask for help, so far this guy knows it is a long-term commitment and is sticking with it. He is the 1 in 10 (100?) that might just carry on with the game. If he doesn't, none of us have lost anything. If he does, SimCountry might just have another long-term player.
So why not vote him the cash?
Hugs and respect
Jo |
| Frank Ladores (White Giant) | Friday, June 10, 2011 - 12:38 pm
no to this crap money for war freaks |
| Josias (White Giant) | Friday, June 10, 2011 - 04:08 pm
seriously? |
| Emperor Andross I. (White Giant) | Friday, June 10, 2011 - 07:59 pm
I have less military (now) and much more debt overall than his country. Instead of giving him money, why not have him reduce his military to a level his country can sustain without producing that much loss each month? If you give money to a country like this, why not give money to all countries like this? *waits for his cheque of 3T*  |
| Brian The Terrible (Fearless Blue) | Friday, June 10, 2011 - 09:43 pm
New players should receive 10T a week for 4 weeks.That way they can build up their empire which ever way they like. |
| Emperor Andross I. (White Giant) | Friday, June 10, 2011 - 10:33 pm
Even if you give a player 10T a week, he/she could still buy lots of military for that and end up with huge deficit and loans like this. The problem is, that it takes a while as a new player, to reach profitable levels of corporation operations and public income from taxes, profit sharing and/or dividends. I for one did not want to wait that long and built over 70 corporations, which ended up being money graves due to lack of population to produce enough to make profits. Add to that a war against a (weak) C3 country and that's where all the debt came from. It also happens that the automatic feature for hospitals and education builds those every month until a certain index level has been reached. That in turn results in ever higher cost for these parts of government, which just can't be counterbalanced by income at this early stage of the game primarily due to corps. not being upgraded and (very) profitable yet. This again results in monthly deficit and growing loans. I am now on the way to reducing the loans (with 3 x 600B loans being the biggest problem when they are due). If every player who makes debt like this gets help from the security council - great - but that's not going to happen, so I am not voting for an exception. |
| Jo Salkilld (White Giant) | Friday, June 10, 2011 - 11:09 pm
Quote:If every player who makes debt like this gets help from the security council - great - but that's not going to happen, so I am not voting for an exception.
So you're not going to vote for it because not enough proposals get put forward? The reason not enough proposals get put forward is that, when they do, no one ever votes for them, so what's the point? Andross, yours is a circular argument if ever I saw one.
Just like the "this player doesn't deserve aid because s/he is going into debt" argument. If they knew how to get out of debt, they wouldn't need aid. The key factor in this particular proposal is that the player is taking advice and needs a boost to stop them feeling demoralised until the changes they make as a result of the advice start working. And we all know that, with this game, that takes a while. Don't forget that there is now a limit on which players can receive aid that, unfortunately, rules out a lot of players who have started getting the hang of the game. The only players who can get it are relative n00bs who don't yet understand the complexity.
GR has an aid request thread and members of the Security Council there address a lot of the aid requests, irrespective of whether the player has proved themselves to be "deserving" ... whatever your definition of that may be. It's a pity that WG is full of players who don't want to help newbs, even when they don't lose anything by helping them.
I warned this player, when I proposed the aid, that it probably wouldn't go through. I hoped, just one time, that the players on WG would want to encourage new players and I'm reassured that the vote is currently 18 for / 14 against. It would make WG a much nicer place to be if it continues going that way.
To all members of the WG Security Council, present and future, I'd like to suggest we try to change the trend and follow the GR example to support new players. I'll start an aid request thread. Let's use it to try to make the Security Council a positive force for encouraging new players to stay in the game.
Hugs and respect
Jo |
| Emperor Andross I. (White Giant) | Saturday, June 11, 2011 - 12:01 am
Making such a newbie help thread is a good start. I noticed that the Security Council even exists (and can help new players by giving development aid) when I had the voting email in my inbox. So far the current newbie in need has not said anything about why he needs the help and what he plans to do differently, once he has the money. What has been done to prevent him from going into such high debt again? Will the money be spent on new weapons and more wars? If the vote goes through, great. I am eagerly awaiting the future development of this country. |
| warfreak (White Giant) | Saturday, June 11, 2011 - 01:23 am
Lets all not jump at each other. The argument against is that this player willingly got into debt by buying a lot of weapons. Couldn't he just sell some of those weapons, increase employment in his corps, decrease maintenance, and make money off weapon sales.
The argument for is that this player is probably one to stay, etc. Question, if he was to stay, why hasn't he piped up on this forum to make his case? It would put a lot of the naysayers to rest.
For this player to succeed, first, he needs to reduce running costs, get it back into positive territory, and they would mean inactivate weapons, or sell them off. That pushes more people into his corps.
Second, if he needs an aid package, it should cover his loans.
I dunno, there are good points for and against, but it would be nice if he pipes up on this forum. |
| Navamin (White Giant) | Saturday, June 11, 2011 - 07:14 am
I voted For. Might as well. It's not doing anything sitting there. |
| alan watt (White Giant) | Saturday, June 11, 2011 - 08:02 pm
Synicus, I don't always agree with you even though you're my fed chairman, but I totally agree here. I voted against it. I'm baffled that it passed.
How about giving my neighbor some aid then, he is actually building schools and corps and not military, and he's a brand new player.
This is like Obama's argument about Libya. "Just because we haven't done anything in the past doesn't mean we shouldn't now"...but there's much better more deserving uses of resources elsewhere! What about the yemens of WG? |
| Synicus (White Giant) | Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 03:25 am
The Security Council has primary responsibility, under the Charter, for the maintenance of international peace and security.
This is not a Capitalist Congress. It's a Security Council.
If ya want help getting out of dept, look up the Federation, Xion Empire. |
| Lorelei (Fearless Blue) | Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 09:56 am
Jeez peoples...... you act like it is real money out of your own pockets. Am I missing something here???? IT'S A GAME!!!!!!!!!!! |
| warfreak (White Giant) | Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 11:58 am
Well for paying members, it kinda is.
Serious business. Thus.
Serious Cat. |
| Lorelei (Fearless Blue) | Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 06:58 pm
FYI, warfreak...... I AM a paying member, have been for years. |
| Synicus (White Giant) | Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 08:11 pm
I'm not attacking anyone in game over it, I just think it's a dumb idea under most circumstances. How much do we save for Security? Will future Space travel and trade require Council intervension? Did your noob mistakes make you a better player in the long run? |
| Jo Salkilld (White Giant) | Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 09:29 pm
Synicus, the Security Council may have "responsibility, under the Charter, for the maintenance of international peace and security" but it can't do anything about it.
In fact, the only thing the Security Council can do is give out aid. If we don't do that, then the SC becomes nothing more than a glorified Hall of Fame.
Noob mistakes don't make you a better player, but they often cause players to give up. If a little bit of aid will make a player stay, then it's worth it. They still have to learn - they won't get to the higher levels if they don't - but at least we can encourage them to keep trying.
Hugs and respect
Jo |
| Emperor Andross I. (White Giant) | Monday, June 13, 2011 - 10:27 am
Looks like the resolution went through. Hurray! :D |
| Jo Salkilld (White Giant) | Monday, June 13, 2011 - 09:14 pm
Thank you to everyone who voted. Let's continue to help new players on White Giant by taking a positive attitude to future resolutions!
Hugs and respect
Jo |
| Josias (Kebir Blue) | Monday, June 13, 2011 - 10:02 pm
ditto |
