| auditor | Sunday, April 21, 2024 - 07:35 pm 
Question primarily for Andy as the only one who truly knows the 'under the hood' math, but others can absolutely chime in.
There is an apparent disparity in how income and expenses surrounding Wind are reported for the purpose of the Financial Index.
For the sake of illustrating the current status, I looked up information on Andy's TA country since that appears to be where the focus of his personal play is.
Andy's TA Wind Status
Wind Farms - 679
Electric Power - 182Q
Wind Turbines - 120Q
EP Market Price - 415,800
WT Market Price - 85.47M
So based on Andy's current situation, it is expected that he generates 848,750 EP per turn @ 182Q, and consumes 679 WTs per turn @ 120Q.
Actual Financial Values
Health Cost - 101,831.75M
Wind Farm Income - 642,296.66M
Wind Farm Cost - 69,640.96M
Reported Financial Index Values
Health Cost - 101,831.75M
Wind Farm Income - 352,910.25M
Wind Farm Cost - 102,097.62M
Health cost doesn't change between reported and actual values, but I am still listing it here because it is a well known fact that EP consumption is a significant part of Health Costs, and the quality of the EP (and associated costs) are factored properly into the Health Cost, meaning a country using higher quality EP will show a higher Health Cost.
The Wind Farm Income on reported financial index values only calculates the # of Wind Farms x 1250 x EP Market Price, which means Andy's Financial Index report only shows him gaining 352,910.25M worth of income from his Wind Farms when the actual amount is 642,296.66M due to the Quality (182Q) of EP being produced.
Similarly, the Wind Farm Cost reported in the Financial Index doesn't line up with true operating costs (unless I have missed a cost, which is entirely possible). As advertised, the only recurring costs associated with Wind Farms is that each Farm will consume 1 WT per month to generate its EP. With Andy's current setup, he consumes 679 WTs per turn @ 120Q for a total cost of 69,640.96M, and this amount is accurately reflected in his Spending tab. The Financial Index reported cost however is significantly higher, at 102,097.62M.
In summary, Andy's country on TA reports a total income/expense on its Financial Statement with all reported income/expenses at 531,229M/390,350M, for a Financial Index of 136. His ACTUAL income/expense is 819,615M/357,894M for a Financial Index of 229.
If Andy were producing higher quality EP, with all other considerations the same, his financial index would actually go down despite the fact that he would clearly be making more money because of the way the Financial Index currently reports income/expenses related to Wind. |
| auditor | Tuesday, April 23, 2024 - 10:20 pm
Just to keep this relatively bumped for Andy's eyes, I wanted to share why I feel this is an issue that should have some sort of resolution either determining that product quality matters for both income and cost or for neither in calculating the Financial Index, by sharing my current situation.
As my current country increases its Wind Farms, more farms obviously means more EP and higher quality EP obviously means more revenue. But because of how the Financial Index is calculated, earning more money with the Wind Farms actually drives DOWN your financial index despite being a clear financial gain.
To illustrate this, I used some trading to change up my EP quality over a few months and came out with these results:
EP @329Q
Health Cost 131B
Wind Farm Income (Financial Index) 30.4B
Wind Farm Income (Actual) 100B
EP @120Q
Health Cost 76B
Wind Farm Income (Financial Index) 30.4B
Wind Farm Income (Actual) 36.5B
So EP @ 329Q in the current way the Financial Index is calculated shows a net loss of 55B compared to the 120Q EP due to the higher health cost from the consumption of higher quality EP despite being an actual net gain of 8.5B if actual value of the EP generated by WFs was calculated properly for the Financial Index.
It may not be a big deal to many players, but personally the situation has limited my Financial Index to the point that my Game Level itself will be capped at 4 which means limited building, where the only quick workaround is to lower the quality of my EP which would mean losing revenue to increase my Financial Index, which sounds crazy but is really the way it works currently with Wind. |
| Andy | Wednesday, April 24, 2024 - 06:30 pm
The quality of electric power delivered by the wind farms is not taken into account.
It was discussed in the past.
quality is not always taken into account and this is the case with electric power produced by wind farms.
The cost of maintenance of wind farms has several factors. One wind turbine is used each month but also some other materials.
the computation of the cost of wind farms is done correctly.
It is checked and rechecked many times and it is correct.
wind farms remain veery profitable.
We in fact think that the profitability is too high and unrealistic.
we do not have any current plans to correct it.
The cost of electric power in the health system is a minor factor.
the health system is using many products, among them medical materials and equipment.
Price fluctuations of electric power have a very small influence on the cost of health. It has a small effect on everything that we produce and on all government functions including health, education transportation and everything else. |
| Mad Buddy | Wednesday, April 24, 2024 - 07:24 pm
I guess we should redefine "minor factor" since Auditor's test numbers show a 58% reduction in health care cost when he lowered the quality of the electricity produced.
131B x 0.58 = 76B
Long story short the cost of electricity in Healthcare is 86.5B / 131B at 329Q and 31.5B/76B @120Q (napkin math) |
| auditor | Wednesday, April 24, 2024 - 07:57 pm
I understand the quality produced is not factored in Andy, that is sort of the point that I am trying to make. Would you be able to elaborate perhaps a little on why the true value produced isnât factored in on the financial index when the true value consumed is? Like for all practical purposes the money comes out fine, it just isnât reflected that way on the Financial Index. And the index matters, like in my case personally, if I wanted to start producing some corporations that require Game Level 5, I would have to actually reduce the actual income that I am generating in order to increase my Financial Index. I absolutely could do that, but frankly just saying it out loud it makes no sense at all, right? I feel like it is worth a look because the Financial Index is a significant factor in most areas of the game and the information that it provides right now is frankly false for anyone buying into the wind game
Also you mentioned there are other costs with the farms besides the Wind Turbines as far as recurring costs. I canât find those âother productsâ listed anywhere else, would you be willing to share what those additional products and their monthly quantity consumption per wind farm is? I obviously am not asking you to share inner workings of the game and behind the scenes formulas or anything like that, I hope you agree that itâs reasonable to know exactly what and how many items go into producing and maintaining something in a game centered around product supply and demand. Like with your country listed above, your reported wind farm cost is roughly 30b more than the cost of the turbines. It isnât very sporting if youâre the only player that is aware of where those costs originate.
I might also reexamine factors in health cost. Electric power is absolutely a significant portion. Itâs not the particular issue I was bringing up in this thread but when running my month to month comparisons that I shared here I took care to keep other known factors besides EP Quality unchanged, including number of hospitals, medical equipment, salary, etc. youâre the GM, manually change your personal EP stock on TA to 120q for a month and let the server process its monthly report and youâll see a not insignificant change in your health cost |
| Andy | Thursday, April 25, 2024 - 11:41 am
The cost of electric power in the health system is too high.
We have looked again into the formula computing the health system cost and found that it is indeed too high.
the cost of electric power increased over the last year and the amount should have been reduced.
we will make some corrections starting with the next upgrade.
We expect the total cost of the healthcare system to remain largely the same but the electric power share in the cost will decline.
|
| Andy | Thursday, April 25, 2024 - 11:53 am
The electric power produced by windfarms could have been sold for a price that takes quality into account.
Doing so, would give wind farms a disproportionate profit rate.
the profit of wind farms is far too high as it is.
with the higher price of electric power, it would become even much higher.
As a result, the cost of production in wind farms would have to increase to much higher levels and a wind farm would have to use 4 or 5 wind turbines each game month.
A country with 100 wind farms would need 500 wind turbines each month to maintain the wind farms.
We do not think it will be possible.
it will need 25 wind turbines corporations to maintain 100 wind farms.
with even larger numbers of wind farms, countries will end up with all their corporations producing wind turbines.
wind power is important but should not become the one factor that moves the entire economies in Simcountry. |
| auditor | Thursday, April 25, 2024 - 03:07 pm
I'm sorry I'm still not feeling like you may be getting the actual point/concern being brought up. Tell me to move on and I will, I'm just asking for a very specific issue and the responses seem to dance near it but not with it. Like that's great that you want to look at health costs again, but that actually was not the concern that was being brought up in any way.
Finance Index matters in so many areas of the game. It is a factor in Game Level. It contributes directly to the player's country performance score which has a direct relation to premium currency rewards that can be received in a month. Finance Index is a big deal. The way the Finance Index is presented currently where quality is factored into expenses but not factored in on incomes is completely deceptive.
I'm not asking for or demanding any changes to their actual costs or maintenance rates etc as you seem to indicate in your most recent response. I am merely asking for accurate accounting on the Financial Index because it is an extremely critical number to a player. All that what you are doing now is accomplishing is masking how good the earning potential of wind power really is. It's not cutting into your profits, its just underreporting the income while still reporting full expenses. In the real world reporting like that would be tantamount to fraud. Your country on TA has 642B income per turn from Wind Farms, but it is only reporting 353B to the Financial Index. All I am asking for is an examination of how reporting is made to the Financial Index. The request is to either make quality a factor for the reported income, or make it not a factor for reported expenses. Many look to their index as a quick status report of how their country is doing, and for anyone utilizing the wind system that you heavily pushed is not receiving accurate information in their index. |
| Andy | Friday, April 26, 2024 - 10:57 am
The financial index will not change upwards if we take the quality of the EP into account.
The income of wind farms will increase.
The cost of maintaining the wind farms will increase by the same amount.
The ratio between the country income and cost will become lower and the financial index depends on that ratio.
so better leave it as it is.
as I said before, maintenance of the wind farms is already quite demanding by the need to purchase wind turbines each month.
let alone, if you will need to purchase 5 times more of them. |
| auditor | Friday, April 26, 2024 - 03:37 pm
I think we're having a disconnect in understanding what's being presented, but that's perfectly fine I'll drop that issue.
Would you be willing to share what products (and how many of each) go into monthly Wind Farm maintenance? I've been trying to follow the Wind game closely and was only aware of the maintenance cost of 1 Wind Turbine per Farm per turn, and would love to know what the rest of the costs are. |
| Andy | Friday, April 26, 2024 - 05:18 pm
I will do so ASAP. |
| Andy | Saturday, April 27, 2024 - 09:30 am
Wind farms use several products for maiuntenance.
These are the products it uses on a yearly bases:
Wind Turbines 12
Electric power 450 units
Services 12000 units
HT services 18000 units
Other products 6000 units
320 workers and professionals are working at each windfarm and take care of the maintenance. |
| auditor | Sunday, April 28, 2024 - 02:26 am
Thank you for sharing this additional information on WF maintenance. |
| Daniel Iceling | Monday, April 29, 2024 - 03:45 am
auditor,
Deciphering what Andy is thinking can be one of the great mysteries of the game. I've talked with him for years, and I think I can safely say he usually understands the issues quite well, but will often have other thoughts he doesn't fully express. This can lead to feeling like he's ignoring what the player is saying, when in practice, he's concerned about another issue he hasn't fully explained.
Having seen this the wind farm finance index issue discussed with Andy many times, I 'think' I understand his thoughts on the matter...
1). Wind farms are far too profitable when they produce high quality electric power.
2). Since fixing this would require a major rework of the wind power system, the 'fix' Andy has relied on, is to use the Finance Index to encourage players to produce wind power at 120Q.
3). I suspect Andy intends for us to produce wind power at 120Q and that wind farms were designed around that target. However, Andy doesn't want to 'force' us to make electric power at 120Q. So, the finance index is the 'light touch' way to encourage us not to exploit the hole in the wind power system's design by making extremely unbalanced profits from high quality wind power.
4). As such, Andy doesn't consider the bug to be in the finance index. Instead, the bug is that producing wind power at high quality is far too profitable. So, any fix would have to be focused on reducing wind farm profits at high quality levels, rather than increasing the finance index of players that are producing wind power at high quality levels. |
| Andy | Monday, April 29, 2024 - 09:15 pm
Interesting. and most of it is true.
I like you thinking but some issues are different.
We have nothing with this Q120.
It is in general the base quality and it is also used in wind farms.
the BUG
no bug.
it is a decision to keep the quality of EP produced by wind farms without quality taken into account.
we could take quality into account but then wind farms would be far too profitable. you cannot let one product become 10 times more profitable than all others.
We could take quality into account but then increase maintenance cost in a way that will keep profitability where it is now.
This is easily possible but will require several wind turbines to be used in maintenance each game month.
You will need many, too many wind turbine corporations.
another possibility is to take the quality of EP into account but then make the wind farms produce 400 units of EP each game month instead of the current 1250.
this will be a good solution but: some players are not on top of the quality issues and might produce EP at a lower quality and if quality is low and production stands at 400 units, they will end up making losses.
these are 3 possibilities. there are probably more but we chose for one of them.
the entire discussion is going on not because of a search for a more correct way of doing this but it is driven by the hope that we will end up with wind farms producing 5 times more profit. This will not happen.
the financial index is a non issue.
If wind farms are profitable they will help to increase the financial index.
if both income and cost from wind farms will increase with unchanged profitability, the financial index will decline a bit.
we figured out from the start that profitable wind farms will improve the financial index but decided that it is good as long as the numbers are not out of proportion. |
| auditor | Monday, April 29, 2024 - 10:07 pm
I was content to let this all go after after bringing up the issue a couple times and giving specific details, but unfortunately Andy your response kind of called me out saying the entire conversation is going on driven by the hope that wind farms will produce 5 times more profit. That response actually has me feeling like you don't understand how wind farms work within your game. That is not meant as an insult in any way, but there are some key points that I think may be escaping you in regards to the wind farm system as far as how it is actually working in game. Again, not meant as an insult in any way. I'm going to try to lay out everything here as clearly as I possibly can for you in how wind is actually playing out in game because what is sounds like you fear is what is actually already happening and what you think my initial message was hoping for was some dramatic boost in my personal income earning, which it was not.
Taking the initial data pulled from your country on TA, you had at the time of checking:
Wind Farms - 679
Electric Power - 182Q
EP Market Price - 415,800
I'm going to completely ignore the Wind Turbines right now because they don't matter for the information that I am trying to present to you.
The way Wind Farms generate their Electric Power in game is that they provide 1250 Electric Power directly to the country's stock of assets, and it adds that 1250 Electric Power without any quality value assigned to it. That means that the 1250 Electric Power is in practice added at a quality equal to whatever the country's current stock of Electric Power currently is.
In your case, the Quality level of your TA country's Electric Power stock was 182Q. So your 679 Wind Farms provided 848,750 Electric Power at 182Q for that game turn. You are receiving 642.3B worth of Electric Power in that turn from your Wind Farms. That's not a hypothetical, that is what you are getting. You are encouraged to check your Electric Power inventory before and after a change of in game month to verify the findings for yourself. Power isn't created at a value of 'no quality', it is created at a value of 'equal quality' to what's already on hand. Again, this is what is actually happening in game.
So for the sake of the Finance Index, you do end up with values where your income reported on the Profit & Loss sheet that determines the index says that you only generated 352.9B in Wind Farm income because as we've already established, quality is not taken into consideration at all for the income reported to the Profit & Loss sheet. Not being reported to the Finance Index doesn't mean that the income is actually that low, however. The report only says 352.9B, but you are actually earning 642.3B. Again, that is not a hypothetical I am trying to make happen, that is currently happening. The Finance Index is not reporting what is actually being earned, that was the correction I was asking for resolution to. My proposed fix would have absolutely zero impact on the actual earning or expense of the country, it wouldn't produce a single SC$. It merely sought to have the actual values for income and expenses properly reported.
I respectfully disagree and declare that the Finance Index is absolutely an issue. The way it is reported currently, lowering the quality of Electric Power your Wind Farms produce (thus lowering your income) increases your Finance Index. Conversely, producing higher quality Electric Power (increasing your income) lowers your Finance Index, since the reported expenses properly change with quality changes but reported incomes do not. Finance Index being a contributing factor to Game Level and having its own spot in player score rankings that determine monthly GC rewards, I contend that it absolutely is an issue that one would have to deliberately lose money to improve the score that is supposed to signify the country's financial health. |
| Eeeee OOOooo | Monday, April 29, 2024 - 11:31 pm
Some context from my experience. I have many wind farms in ~30 different countries.
Windfarms are far more profitable than the finance index reports for each of my countries.
ALL electric power I generate from my wind farms is quality 330. This is happening. Now. And has been for 8 months when I started my account. Selling my power results in massively more profit than the finance index ever represents.
Making my finance index accurate will not change what I make. I am making it regardless of the "index," and changes to just the index will not impact my profits.
|
| Daniel Iceling | Wednesday, May 1, 2024 - 05:08 am
Andy,
auditor and Eeeee OOOooo's Math and logic is strong. Incredibly enormous unbalanced profits are already being made, they are just hidden from the financial index.
A rebalance is needed, because the true profits that wind farms create is far higher than anything else in the game. And far higher than the financial index currently displays.
Just having the finance index not take the truly excessive profits into account, doesn't fix the problem that the profits are already extreme. |
| Mr Corleone | Thursday, May 2, 2024 - 03:48 pm
I disagree. Wind farms should stay the same. If anything quality should go into effect because most of mines are 330 quality. |
| auditor | Thursday, May 2, 2024 - 04:29 pm
To reiterate for the nth time (I've lost count at this point) I am not calling for wind farm changes. I am calling for finance index incomes and expenses to reflect the actual incomes and expenses that are being earned and spent. |
