| dubletar | Wednesday, December 11, 2019 - 02:37 pm 
My country: Republic of Doublestar
Target: The United Kingdom of Cobara
 |
| dubletar | Wednesday, December 11, 2019 - 02:40 pm
Image shows...
Land based weapons at 13K+ miles away.
Stealth Bombers are shown as 16k+ miles away.
 |
| dubletar | Wednesday, December 11, 2019 - 02:44 pm
The whole country of Cobara is only about 200 miles across.
West
East
 |
| dubletar | Wednesday, December 11, 2019 - 02:49 pm
Also, documentation is wrong.
This is known and probably purposeful, but either the game behaves like the documentation, or the documentation needs to say how the game behaves. We need consistency!
Quote:The same applies to defensive units and defensive navy missiles that are used in the defense. The distance is measured, between the attacked target where the defensive unit is stationed and the place where the attack comes from (the source of the attack).
Long-range units with missile batteries operating from a long distance will be immune to defensive weapons and must be destroyed by use of offensive weapons that have sufficient range and are effective against these missile batteries.
|
| dubletar | Wednesday, December 11, 2019 - 02:50 pm
The above is from  |
| dubletar | Wednesday, December 11, 2019 - 02:54 pm
Helicopter range according to documentation:
Attacking at over 13k+ miles... helis respond.
 |
| dubletar | Wednesday, December 11, 2019 - 02:56 pm
The ask with helis or defense range IS NOT to change their ranges.
The ask in all of this is CONSISTENCY.
Either...
1. Update the documentation to how the game actually works, leaving the current ranges, or
2. Update the weapons ranges to match documentation.
...
And FIX INCONSISTENT DISTANCES
My country is only 100-200 miles across. So if my weapons are stated as 3,000 miles between each other, either fix the bug or give me a country 3,000 miles wide.
I'd really love the 2nd option. ;D |
| dubletar | Thursday, December 12, 2019 - 08:28 pm
Bump |
| dubletar | Thursday, December 26, 2019 - 01:06 am
Andy. |
| Andy | Thursday, December 26, 2019 - 11:20 am
Somehow I missed this one.
Quite complex to get all the points here.
Obviously, the distance to the country and the distance to the stealth bombers are computed in two different ways and the result is inconsistent.
This might be complex to fix but at least it is understood.
we will get to it and I will be back with an answer.
Generally the range is between the defense weapon and the attack weapon.
If the range of the defense weapons is not sufficient, it should do nothing.
It is different with the missiles.
These always approach the target and the range of all anti missile weapons is sufficient.
So what is the problem? defense helicopters?
Did the defense helicopter wing attack a weapon at a very large range?
It should not.
so I will have these two issues checked.
In the mean time, if I misunderstood, please correct me. |
| Lord Mndz | Thursday, December 26, 2019 - 12:25 pm
Andy, helicopters always attack back no matter the range. Maybe it is good to leave as is because otherwise people could use countries from far away to attack without having to deal with air resistance. |
| dubletar | Thursday, December 26, 2019 - 06:07 pm
Clarifying...
1. The distance calculated between weapons, coming from the same country, are grossly incorrect.
a. My Country and the target country are 13,000 miles +/- away from each other.
b. My country is only 100-200 miles across.
c. Some weapons were showing 13,000 miles away, while others were showing 16,000+ miles away from the target. That would mean that my army bases are located 1 CONTINENT further away from the target country than my actual country is... so unless my country is 3,000 miles wide, this is wrong.
2. Defense helicopters respond at 16,000 miles away.
a. In every long distance war, this has been the case.
b. This may also be the case for defense missile batteries, but I need to test more to determine this.
c. Was this done on purpose? Without heli and long range battery defense, one country can use all long range weapons and be invincible (Conventional missile batteries, for example).
3. Weapons distances in documentation are incorrect.
We as players of Simcountry should not have to go to every weapon and test its distances to point out what weapons actually do.
Can your team go through all the weapons and test that they actually do what the documentation says? Even if you decide to allow defense helis defend up to 20K miles away, we're fine with that. We just need documentation to be a reliable source. Right now, it is not. |
| Andy | Friday, December 27, 2019 - 10:12 am
1. I promised to look into the distance calculation.
The numbers shown clearly point to an error.
2. It could be true for helicopters and indeed for defensive missile batteries.
As LordMndz said, there should be a way to counter attack at a very long distance.
It seems to me that helicopters at that range do not make sense.
Missiles however, could be a solution.
3. The manual is using the numbers as in the code. It copies the ranges table.
It could be that the code makes an exception for the reason of "there should be a way"
This should then be in the range of the weapon and not in an exception in the code.
I will look into it ASAP. |
| John Galt | Friday, December 27, 2019 - 03:52 pm
Helicopters, and DMB have unlimited range. You can confirm this by declaring war on a C3 at the furthest possible range and see that their defense will respond. If helicopter range Is reduced, it will make conventional batteries super weapons because DMB are very ineffective. It will also make war levels much easier to move up as you can completely ignore helicopters by declaring war at long range C3s. The entire balance of defense would be upended if this is changed. I think if a big change like this is going to happen then it would be a good time to rebalance the entire war game and merge the duplicate offence and defence weapons into unified weapons. |
| Daniel Iceling | Friday, December 27, 2019 - 09:06 pm
Andy, John Galt, Lord Mndz, dubletar,
John Galt is right. If players can attack from beyond the range of a countries defenses, it would unbalance the game. Creating a situation of attacks of impunity, ie, where players can attack, with no consequences or risk to themselves.
Purely defensive weapons, should not be subjected to such range limitations. Offensive weapons on the other hand, should keep range limitations, so that you can't use a heavy tank to shoot at a nation on the other side of the planet.
Signed President of DanNation on LU |
| dubletar | Friday, December 27, 2019 - 09:12 pm
We agree. The point is, then update the docs as such. The docs do not reflect what actually occurs in the game. |
| Andy | Saturday, December 28, 2019 - 03:04 pm
I found the lines of code.
Comments clearly stating that there should always be a weapon that can hit back.
as of now, it is a defense weapon that is available to the defense.
and one that has any effect on the attacking weapon.
In this case, def. helicopters and def. missiles could do the same.
I think that a response should be possible but this is a wrong solution.
I will remove this code and instead, increase the range of defensive missiles (also navy missiles). They will be able to hit targets world wide.
helicopters will not be usable because of their range.
Need also to check other long range attack weapons and the possible response weapon.
The weapon document will include the new ranges.
no need to describe exceptions. We just remove them.
Not sure yet about nukes but we do have a nuke interceptor which is quite effective if available to the defense. |
| Daniel Iceling | Saturday, December 28, 2019 - 03:23 pm
Andy,
What about Interceptors? It would be very strange to have an enemy airforce bombing you, but your interceptor aircraft can't respond, due to your enemies country being 'out of range'.
Also, not every unit has defensive missiles. So just depending on them, will result in lots of possible exploits. I really think you should reconsider, and allow Helicopters to function in this role.
Since Helicopters and Interceptors, are the only units that can respond to an attack on any part of your country. They are the only weapons truly suited to this defense role.
Signed President of DanNation on LU |
| Johanas Bilderberg | Saturday, December 28, 2019 - 04:26 pm
Defense helicopters should be left as they were barring a complete overhaul of the war engine. If anything defense should be easier not harder. |
| John Galt | Saturday, December 28, 2019 - 06:44 pm
As the owners of the largest stockpile of conventional missile batteries and conventional missiles in the game, LDI would like to thank Andy for making defense helicopters obsolete. I love when game changes make my fed even more dominant. |
| Lord Mndz | Saturday, December 28, 2019 - 09:12 pm
how many do you have? |
| Letsie | Saturday, December 28, 2019 - 11:37 pm
Well this certainly messed up the game... thank you doubletar! (don't worry I still love you) |
| John Galt | Sunday, December 29, 2019 - 12:39 am
That information is classified  |
| Johanas Bilderberg | Sunday, December 29, 2019 - 04:42 am
He has more than me and I technically have a shit ton. |
| dubletar | Sunday, December 29, 2019 - 08:42 am
Not my fault. The game is already messed up. I asked them for consistency and updating the documentation. If changes were made, that's squarely on the makers of the game. |
| dubletar | Sunday, December 29, 2019 - 08:52 am
Quote:Hostilities between Doublestar Republic and The Independent State of Tera Bernadette
T
May 18, 4455 Ground- or Airforce attacks the county of 'Dorsten'
The Independent State of Tera Bernadette (the attacked country,C3WL10) reports:
The county of Dorsten is completely destroyed.
There were 1687 casualties and 906 civilians were wounded.
Weapons based at Dorsten may have been destroyed.
The defence was assisted by the Defense helicopter Wing Phoenix.
The attack added 0.14 damage points. The War Index is now 53.19
Confirming helis are still responding, via a target 14,000+ miles away... Well beyond the documented range of helicopters and the same results as before. |
| Andy | Monday, December 30, 2019 - 01:44 pm
Nothing is changes so I am not sure how it messed up the game.
Interceptors are just fine.
Attacking aircraft must come close to the target to attack.
They are then within the range of the interceptors.
Missile batteries are different.
they do not come close. Their missiles do.
It is weird to have helicopters with a range of 20.000 KM.
there are none.
Long range missiles fit better.
We have no intention of making swift radical changes.
We will however advise players to have defensive missiles to defend against long range attacks and rely less on helicopters.
In the mean time nothing will change but the documentation will show the correct ranges and the code will make no exceptions.
we cannot have the code ignore the documented range.
we must change the range, and document, to allow these weapons to defend at a long distance.
Missile interceptors were always available and able to intercept these missiles. |
| dubletar | Monday, December 30, 2019 - 01:53 pm
Thumbs up! Thanks! |
