| AnthonyKingAngels | Friday, July 12, 2019 - 03:41 am 
Hello, I am getting the machine next week on Tuesaday In Parramatta for the total costs off $920 second hand machine fr my lungs and help me sleep better., I took out my loan this week for 1300 dolllars plau my pension money worth 1400 with once a year payment of 600 dollars. I want to thank you for your prayers to me and I want to thank you for your all support and making me a Third God of Heaven. I will pray for you and keep in peace my children of God and may God bless you and keep you.
Yours sincerely Michael The Angel. |
| The_Wicked_Lady | Friday, July 12, 2019 - 03:19 pm
Hello, My Angel,
I'm so glad that you are able to get the equipment you need to help you with your sleep apnea. I bet you will feel so much better as you start using it. I'm glad that God paved the way to finance it. I know how expensive medical care can be. Remember to take things one day at a time, my angel. I hope you feel better. May God bless you too! You will remain in my prayers.
TWL |
| ROBERT E LEE | Friday, July 12, 2019 - 03:55 pm
I had to get a sleep apnea machine also I personally love myn I also had to pay like 1100 but they let me make payments |
| The_Wicked_Lady | Friday, July 12, 2019 - 04:37 pm
Sleep apnea seems to be very prevalent nowadays. What causes it? |
| AnthonyKingAngels | Saturday, July 13, 2019 - 02:40 am
It was the drug thye gave me and caused me to stay awake all night and gave me heart failure and made me very sick man and it was since i was 30 years old I had this sicnees for. The drug called is Risperdal that caused this problem.
Your sincerely Michael your guardian angel. |
| Letsie | Saturday, July 13, 2019 - 04:06 am
I find it sad that people are happy that they have managed to buy a 2nd hand apnea machine because their insurance does not cover it. You Americans have made some weird choices with your country.
To be very clear here, I think it's good that you found one Anthony. If you need 1 they can literally be a life saver. I am only commenting on the choices your country made concerning the health care system.
You have the worst of luck Anthony you literally belong to the 1% of unlucky people.
As for an answer to the wicked ladies question. Most apnea cases are a direct result of obesity. |
| Zentrino | Saturday, July 13, 2019 - 04:32 am
Wow that is crazy expensive. I had to get one and I paid $50 and my insurance covered all the rest. |
| Michael | Saturday, July 13, 2019 - 11:28 pm
Weight gain can cause it -that what caused mine. I lost 30 pounds over past two years and my sleep apnea receded somewhat. But now I am putting on the pounds again. Time to hit the gym. |
| AnthonyKingAngels | Sunday, July 14, 2019 - 01:34 pm
Letsie, thank you for your concerning about me and my health condition. Right now I should be dead long a go. Thye word isobesity is what I was looking for when I agained weight from the drug when i was diagnosed as Schizophrenia and my snoring has got really worst lately but at this stage I can not hit the gym yet until i get my swelling feet down so I can wear shoes again but this time my wife is supporting me to stay alive and live a bit longer if i can. Im only 37 years old at the moment and I was told this earth is my last stop on the earth for eternity. If I die before 2040 I might not come back to the earth again, I vowed that to my wife. She is 70 years old and very lucky woman to survive this long. But she is helping me to get fit again by cutting some bad foods down drikn less sodas through out the day. Eats whats at home and no takeaways this will save our money. Lots of money. Because we got to pay for our taxis trips every week which my wife covers for 7 dollars per trip. Soon she will be taking me to the gym again 3 times per week and i have to cover the costs every fortnight.
Thank you for your time and sincerely looking and praying for me Anthony. |
| Johanas Bilderberg | Sunday, July 14, 2019 - 06:01 pm
Quote:You Americans have made some weird choices with your country.
Uses terms like takeaways and fortnight. Seems legit. Every red blooded Murican uses those terms. We also put U in labour and colour.
Oh wait. |
| John Galt | Sunday, July 14, 2019 - 06:35 pm
Letsie, America isnt the only place where all healthcare isnt covered. I am from Canada. We have free healthcare but that does not actually mean everything is free here either. CPAP devices are not fully covered for example. Medications are not covered here either, nor is dental or any rehabilitative stuff like physio, massage, or chiro. Ambulance services are not fully covered either. Most people have private insurance from their employer to cover all the things the government does not cover. Im not sure how it is in Europe though. Can anyone fill me in? |
| AnthonyKingAngels | Sunday, July 14, 2019 - 10:02 pm
John, you are correct from your statement you spoke off. We Australians have health system where we get our money back on governments stuff like the Medicare, but be a ware that we also have to pay some medications via through your GP doctors on prescriptions can make it cheaper for us to pay for. W#hen I was diagnosed with Schizophrenia when I was very sick, the medication i was taking through injections is covered by government and i was stuck on this thing for 7 years now and I am in obesity because of the drug and right now I am still very sick man with cellulitis in my legs which I am trying to rcover fast with antibiotics and bandages to heal the wounds. The CPAP we have in Australia is not covered by government as we thought we could it for free, but unfortunately i had to pay for it out of my loan from Centrelink.
Thank you yours cincerely Anthony. |
| AnthonyKingAngels | Monday, July 15, 2019 - 11:32 am
I am starting my weight loss journey as off tonight after my last takaway meal. all i had was One large bacon and cheese double burger and a red rooster roll chicken with gravy and a large 1.25 litre coke. And my wifes coke and dinner all cost to 50 dollars all up to the nearest dolllar. My weight is 184.4kg as off today the 15/07/2019 at 13:25pm at the time of my weighing and my BMI is 72. Now that I lost my height my weight goal is to reach level 60kg at 5 foot 2 inches tall. Now that I was told once I loose all my weight my sleep apnea will be cured for good and I will be able to sleep better at night, its time to hit the gym soon.
Yours sincerely Anthony the Angel. |
| John Galt | Monday, July 15, 2019 - 03:17 pm
Good luck man. Keep working hard at it and you will achieve your goal. |
| The_Wicked_Lady | Monday, July 15, 2019 - 04:56 pm
Dear Angel,
I will keep you in my prayers. Sometimes with certain conditions, weight gain and other complications are a vicious cycle. My advice to you is this:
Take one thing at a time to address with your health. If this is your weight, then focus on this first. Stay away from fast food and sodas, even diet ones. East 5-6 servings of fruits and veggies a day. Eat more fish - baked or broiled. I personally love salmon fillets. Watch intakes of sugar through sweets and foods that make sugars, known as carbohydrates. (Of course, this is the good stuff like bread, potatoes, cheese, noodles, etc.) Eat more "free foods" like celery sticks and certain vegetables when you get hungry. AND drink lots of water.
Obesity can cause a whole host of complications: type 2 diabetes, sleep apnea as stated above, heart issues. Certain medications you take can cause these issues as well. I know mental illness is a hardship to deal with. Talk to your psychiatrist who manages your medicines to see if there is another drug alternative that works with schizophrenia that can have better effects and doesn't cause weight gain. The world of medicine has come a long way in psychiatry. You have options. :-D
I am so happy to hear that you have a supportive wife and care partner. That is so important in life. I hope you feel better each and every day!
You take care of YOU! I hate that you have to face these challenges at such a young age. AND Yes, 37 is YOUNG to me! :-D
Love and prayers,
Jan |
| The_Wicked_Lady | Monday, July 15, 2019 - 05:21 pm
Re: Healthcare in America
I don't favor socialized healthcare at all. I will tell you why. I don't think the quality of care is as good and the government determines when and what it will do for you. I will give you an example.
I had a ex-friend who lived in the UK. He had peripheral artery disease in his legs. He suffered pain and discomfort, had issues walking. He had to wait almost a year, before they would do the procedure of placing stents. Here in the United States, there is not such a long wait. If it is emergent, you are taken right away, and if it can wait, maybe a few weeks or month out. Also, I don't want the government to decide when I'm 75 or 80, it's not going to cover a life saving surgery, because I'm a certain age. lol Here in America, an emergency room is REQUIRED to treat everyone. They cannot turn you away. As far as medical costs, you pay what you can a month, even if $20. Eventually the hospital will write it off.
There are groups to levy support and even the drug companies in getting required medications for patients. We can also help each other with Go-Fund-Me Accounts. There are programs to help, you just need to get a social worker or such to help you find them.
I think communities should help each other. We need to rely on each other for help, certainly not the government. I know the cost of some medications are outrageous. I have a friend who takes an antipsychotic medication, known as Latuda. They take this for depression, although it is a medicine often used to treat Bi-polar. Without insurance, this drug, a 30-day supply, is about $10,000. Can you believe that?! |
| AnthonyKingAngels | Monday, July 15, 2019 - 07:42 pm
Woah, 10,000 for a drug a month, no way. I know an old friend who lived next door us who has Bi polar and she always fights me and tells me to leave this property, she was trying to split us up. |
| ROBERT E LEE | Monday, July 15, 2019 - 11:15 pm
I pay for my insurance threw my job I’m happy with that we see what happens when government controls healthcare veterans affairs |
| Letsie | Monday, July 15, 2019 - 11:22 pm
I find it absolutely fascinating when I meet Americans that are proud of their health care system.
I am going to ask the same question to you that I ask all other Americans that I have met in my life.
What measurement do you want to use to determine how good your health care is?
Costs? (personally i believe that % of gdp spending on health care is a good measurement but if you want to use another one please tell me)
Average wait times?
People covered by insurance?
Availability and acces to health care?
Acces to medication?
Another metric?
Please tell me and I will provide the data to back up the following claim:
On AVERAGE the american health care system is really bad compared to the rest of the western world except for 1 thing. Extremely specialized care. If you have an extremely rare disease and an insurance that covers it you are best of in the US.
Is there any US citizen who wants to tango and challenge my claim?
---
@ john galt
I know what you mean and you are right. Having said that Canada is at least willing to consider or outright cover basic health care. Sure you need to pay some parts (which I believe everybody should) but for basic needs the government is willing to help.
As for your question about European health care. Most countries use a combination of government and private health care (the UK is one of the major exceptions since it is almost 100% run by the government)
The following is a MAJOR generalization of dozens of different systems so please keep that in mind
Generally speaking a European government detriments how much a drug and treatment can cost and which part the government pays and which part the insurance company has to pay.
Another big difference in most European countries is that everybody can get insurance to cover their health care. Even somebody with MS, heart failure and chronic diseases has to be accepted by every insurance company. The insurance company gets an extra compensation for taking taking that person in.
Generally speaking this keeps the costs of health care much lower then in the US and makes health care accessible to everybody. A couple of important exeptions are:
- the uk which is 100% goverment run (and was already taxed to the max and then brexit happend and now it is simply imploding because a very high % of health care workers were Europeans from other countries)
- Italy which has a really bad system because of the bureaucracy
- several smaller eastern european countries
This is a 5 min write up of 4 years of university. So please keep that in mind when responding. |
| Johanas Bilderberg | Tuesday, July 16, 2019 - 02:45 am
Here is my counterpoint.
I pay less in taxes than a university student in whatever country you live in, I am not paying more comrade. If I steal money from you and give it to a homeless person does that make it right?
Why then is it right for government thugs to extort money from me and give it to someone else?
I really don't see what else is to discuss? |
| John Galt | Tuesday, July 16, 2019 - 02:57 am
From my experience in Canada, I find the wait times to be extremely long. Hospital wait times can be 8+ hours. Specialists are usually a minimum of 2-3 months. MRI around 3-4 weeks. We actually pay a lot in tax for it. 23% of our taxes here goes to healthcare. If I took 23% of what I pay in tax and used it to purchase health insurance in the US I would have an amazing insurance plan with low deductibles, and would have the benefit of shorter wait times and better outcomes.
Interesting fact about the US system, if you eliminate car accidents and gun violence, Americans have the highest life expectancy and best healthcare outcomes in the world. They have some of the best 5 year cancer survival rates too. Also excellent surgical outcomes. They should spend some more money on driver training and gun safety haha.
The problem with the US system is for poor individuals. They will have difficulty accessing care due to financial constraints. Those individuals would certainly benefit from a public health care plan. I think middle class and wealthy class that have insurance from their employer or a good plan that they pay for benefit more from the American private system than any public option. Everyone has to vote for what is in their best interests. I dont think it is fair to think poorly of people who prefer their private plan because they are likely going to get better care than on any public option, assuming they have a good plan of course. I wouldnt expect someone to sacrifice their own benefit for the benefit of others when the others would not be willing to do the same. |
| John Galt | Tuesday, July 16, 2019 - 03:11 am
I also want to add something. I know this is completely anecdotal but I will throw it out there anyway. Whenever I access the public health care options in Canada, I find the experience to be not as good as when I access the parts of our healthcare system that are private. Now thats not to say that the actual medical care is bad, it is always excellent, but rather it is the actual experience. When I go to the dentist here, my appointment is always on time, the waiting room is usually empty, the office is modern and nice, and the experience is better. The dentist will call me to remind me when I need to book follow up appointments. You get that personalized care that comes with being a paying customer. When I go to a regular medical clinic, the appointment is never on time. Usually an hour late. The waiting room, is always packed and messy. The office isnt as nice or modern looking. You also dont get the same level of personalized care. You have to really advocate for yourself to get what you need. You kind of feel like a number and a burden and not a customer. Thankfully I am a healthcare worker so I know what I need to ask, but not everyone has that knowledge. One thing I do love about our system here is that I never have to worry about financial concerns. I wish there was a way to take the best of private and public and merge them. I hear Singapore has a great system but I am not familiar with it personally. |
| The_Wicked_Lady | Tuesday, July 16, 2019 - 03:59 pm
Dear Letsie,
I really have nothing to compare my health insurance coverage to. I only know how mine works. I get my health insurance through my employer. I want to say I pay 20 % and insurance, 80% up to an out of pocket max of so much a year. I pay $20 office visit co-pays and $100 co-pays for Emergency Room visits. Because I work for a medical institution, if I use our doctors, I get health care at even cheaper costs. My medicines if I go through our pharmacy is considerably cheaper than if I went to an outside drug store. As a patient, I am typically seen within 1-2 days by my primary care physician, if need be. BUT, I KNOW my docs as I work with them professionally, so I have a bit of an edge. (Perks of working where I do.)
In Tennessee, we have a government health care program, known as Tenncare. This is in place to help individuals who cannot get health insurance on their own (non-insurable) or those who cannot afford. There are programs out there to help people obtain care. I know my institution has a clinic for under-served, under-privileged communities.
As for medical care, those at my institution are some of the best in the world. We are tops in Heart Health, Diabetes, and Cancer care (three of our five major emphases). We are also one of the top 10 hospitals in the country. |
| Letsie | Tuesday, July 16, 2019 - 06:17 pm
@ the wicked and John Galt
Both of you read like you are working people with a decent to firm grip on how your insurances work. I really like reading about personal experiences with health care systems of other countries. If you want to share more, please feel free to do so.
I am not disputing the fact that there is good health care in the US. Because there is. But let me show you some numbers to illustrate what I mean when I say that on average the US system is not good. I will only be using data from public sources (mostly the WHO) so you can verify this yourself. Lets compare our 3 countries.
- the US Aka Wicked Lady country
- Canada This is where the John Galts come from
- The Netherlands This is where Letsies are made
All 3 are western style countries. All 3 are countries have an above average amount of wealth and have an above average level of education index.
Health care Costs in % of gdp
- the US: 17.7%
- Canda: 10.53%
- Netherlands: 10.36
Amenable Mortality rates (an index rating to measure how effective the health care is delivered to the patients and how much preventable deaths are actually prevented higher is better and 2 to 3 points is a huge difference)
- The US: 88.7
- Canada: lots of data but not the same calculations for this index number. For reference, comparable western countries score is on average 93.7
- Netherlands: 96.1
Age-standardized Disability Adjusted Life Years (the DALY) Simply put, the higher it is the more years are lost by people who are suffering from diseases. Please read up on the specifics of it, it is a really fascinating way to compare the quality of health care as it does it best to take in to account health care after a hospital/clinic visit.
The following number of years are lost per 100.000 inhabitants
- The US: 24.306
- Canada: 19.227
- Netherlands: 18.716
Life expectancy.
- the US: 78.6 years
- Canada: 81.9 years
- Netherlands: 81.6 years
The big one. John Galt made a comment about the fact that Americans drive more and because of that have more accidents. Also Americans have to many guns and guns tend to lead to more deaths. These facts are all true. Luckily there is data out there that takes these things into account. Life expectancy in the US adjusted for, car accidents, gun deaths and overdose deaths caused by the current opiod epidemic is: 79.8 years. Those things account for well over a year, that is a really big difference and much more then I expected. Personally i believe the opiod epidemic should be removed from the calculation but that is just nit picking.
I could go on about this number. For example the average life expectancy has been dropping in the US for years while in the rest of the world is it is actually climbing, or up until the 1980s the life expectancy of a US citizen was the same as those of Canada and the Netherlands despite guns and car accidents. But let us move on.
5 year survival rate for major cancers (1% fluctuations are common per year. So the US and Canada are comparable and the Netherlands are slightly worse then the other 2)
- the US: 64.7%
- Canada: 63.5%
- Netherlands: 62.9%
I will let everybody draw their own conclusions.
My personal conclusion is that the US is spending a lot more of their gdp on health care without getting the results you would expect.
MAJOR DISCLAIMER: there are parts of the US/Canadian/Netherlands health care systems that are incredibly good. I have tried to use average numbers to paint a general picture. I have avoided as much as possible individual illnesses and treatments. I also have to little data to compare the administrative burden of all 3 health care systems.
@ the wicked
Working in the health care sector is a huge upside especially when you know your doctors well. I have been a nurse as well and I know what a huge difference it can make. |
| John Galt | Tuesday, July 16, 2019 - 07:02 pm
Letsie, I don't think criticizing healthcare spending in a free market system is a fair argument. In the free market, individuals decide how much or how little to spend on healthcare, not the government. If individuals choose to spend more on healthcare, that is their choice. I am sure there are some wealthy people who spend ridiculous sums of money on all sorts of tests and scans to make sure they are healthy. Individuals like that would drive up the spending.
I think where you are being misguided is that your critique is less on the actual healthcare system, but rather on the unequal distribution of healthcare resources. A good example would be to compare the life expectancy of rich individuals in the private American system versus rich individuals in a socialized system. You will find that the rich Americans have a higher life expectancy than their socialized counterparts. The point I am making is that if you can afford the healthcare, the US system is unrivalled. This is why rich people all over the world come to the United States for their healthcare, even when they have free coverage in their home country. This is also why people who have a good insurance plan do not want to move to a socialized system, because they are actually getting better healthcare than they would on a public option. The combination of uninsured individuals and the higher rates of overdose, accidents, and gun violence in America are likely the primary reasons for the lower life expectancy, not the lack of quality in healthcare.
The real question we should be asking is how do we provide the high quality healthcare that is available in the American system to people who are uninsured. I don't think destroying the free market system is necessarily the best answer. Remember, most healthcare innovation comes from the United States simply because of the free market incentives to innovate. I think allowing for more competition between insurance companies could help. The government could provide catastrophic health insurance to the entire population at quite low cost, rather than providing comprehensive plans to everyone. I'm not an expert in this area so I don't have all the solutions. What I do know is that there are pros and cons to every system. |
| Letsie | Tuesday, July 16, 2019 - 09:14 pm
Can you explain to me why it is not fair? The parameters for every number I gave are all the same for every country. It is not a matter of free market vs socialized market. Health is health care. These posts are about what the health care system is about in different countries.
Here is something to think about. There is a gap of 7% in the % of gpd that is spent on health care between the US (17%) and Canada/Netherlands (10%). To put this in perspective, if all people who have more then 1 billion dollars in America would give away everything they own you would not be able to cover those 7%
The number is simply to large of a difference to just be 'extra scans' and such.
As I have mentioned before, the American health care has some really good high care (specialized) options for those who can afford it. I do however believe that you are overestimating how many people are able to afford that level of health care. Most people have to deal with just the normal lvl of health care. And on that level, on average, the American health care system is not that good. Even I can name some areas in which the American health care system is above average in America and yes those cases also matter but there is much more then just those areas.
As for the the lower life expectancy, even if compensated for those things you just mentioned it is still significantly lower compared to the rest of the western world. I've literally dedicated a part of my previous post about it. If you want I could provide more data on the subject. It is really fascinating material.
I have 2 questions about your post John Galt
On what data are you basing that wealthier people are better of in the US then in Europe? Most of the things that I have found talk about a very small difference for the wealthy.
Do you think that it is a choice between fully private and fully socialized? |
| Johanas Bilderberg | Wednesday, July 17, 2019 - 01:48 am
The Netherlands also has the 4th highest tax rates in the world.
Your argument is invalid and based on theft. |
| John Galt | Wednesday, July 17, 2019 - 02:41 am
I got my comparison for Canadian versus American life expectancy by income from Statistics Canada (government source) and Journal of American Medical Association. For the top 50% of earners the Americans are higher by 3-5 years.
The reason why I was saying it is not fair to compare spending is because in socialized care the government has the final say in spending decisions. In free market the people have the final say. Some people will choose to spend significantly more than would be allowed under a government plan. For example, in America the gold standard for colon cancer screening is regular colonoscopy beginning at age 50. In Canada it is too expensive to do this so we use fecal occult blood tests for our screening. This is an example of rationed care in a socialized system. The government decides what you get or dont get. There is also rationing in a private system, but that rationing is determined by income. Some people can afford colonoscopy and some cannot and must choose the FOBT test. The key difference is choice. If I can afford a life saving treatment, I want to have the choice to pay for the treatment and not have it denied by the government. In Canada it is actually illegal to provide any services covered by the Canada Health Act privately, so people do not have the option, unlike in some countries that have a two tier system. |
| John Galt | Wednesday, July 17, 2019 - 03:16 am
Here are some other examples of rationed care in Ontario (most populous province in Canada).
Yearly general checkups were eliminated in 2012. You can now only be covered when you have a medical issue. When you do have an issue, you can only talk about one issue per visit, forcing patients to essentially triage themselves to determine which issue is most serious. In 2004 eye exam coverage was removed from the public health care plan. In 2004 chiropractic was also removed from public plan. In 2013 physiotherapy was also removed from the public plan.
It seems every few years something that used to be covered is eliminated, and my private insurance has to pick up the tab. Oh and our taxes have not gone down at all with all the cuts by the way. |
| Johanas Bilderberg | Wednesday, July 17, 2019 - 12:39 pm
Government only succeeds in raising costs and decreasing efficiency. It doesn't create. It cannot innovate. It only legislates, regulates, and taxes.
The only area government excels at is in bureaucracy. |
| John Galt | Wednesday, July 17, 2019 - 02:42 pm
I still think there is a role for government. I am a libertarian so my belief on government is that they should stick to the essentials: military, policing, and courts. Those are areas where I believe the private sector should have no business in. Other than that, they should try to stay out of the way of productive people. |
| The_Wicked_Lady | Wednesday, July 17, 2019 - 09:01 pm
I absolutely find this discussion fascinating and educational.
@Letsie I had no idea you were from the Netherlands! I think that is where my son resides when he isn't traveling so much.
I know I'm going on a tangent here. But I remember the first time I talked to someone from Canada, this was my former fedmate and friend, Bobo. I asked him if they had McDonalds and stuff there. He laughed and said they weren't backwards. ha ha ha ha
I think I asked the same thing of our former UK players. What I found astounding is that Kentucky Fried Chicken (KFC) over there doesn't serve mashed potatoes with their chicken! They have "chips" or "fries" as we say here. Most UK-ians LOVE KFC.
Aaaaaaaaaah I've had long discussions about "brown sauce" and what the heck that is, a debate over whether spaghetti is a noodle, and how all sodas in southern US are called cokes. lol
See what all we can learn about each other from chatting and posting! :-D
Sorry, now back to healthcare in the US:
I wonder if the life expectancy of US at 78 years is due to the high fat foods that Americans eat. We are all getting fatter and fatter! |
| Letsie | Thursday, July 18, 2019 - 11:19 am
@ Johanes bilderberg
It is true that our countries have made different choices concerning health care and taxes. Because of that I am using % of gdp spent on health care as a measurement.
People in the US pay a lot less taxes then those in most other countries. But in the end you do end up spending a lot higher % of your money on health care. As mentioned before Canada and the Netherlands spent around 10% of their gdp on health care. The US spent around 17%
Your argument that higher taxes are theft might be true or not we can talk about that. But it has 0 relevance for this discussion.
@ John Galt
Thank you for clarifying your post. It helps me understand several things that I did not understand before. I like your examples and it really reveals some 'issues' with the Canadian system and also on what you are basing your arguments.
In Europe most countries (once again the UK is the main exception) have a government controlled part and a private part. If you want to spent your own money on extra check ups you can go to a private clinic and get all the extra treatment you want. Sometimes even a part of it is covered by your insurance.
One of the major advantages in favor of government influence is that the costs are kept a lot lower on average and nobody goes bankrupt because they can not pay their health care bills. Everybody can get the care they need (as always there are always exceptions in specific cases)
@ johannes bilderberg
Can you back those claims up with numbers on this subject? I can respect an opinion but all the data I have found about health care does not support yours.
@ John Galt
Personally I believe that health care is to important to completely leave to corporations. Just look at the costs of medication in the US. Corporations can raise them at will and people simply have no choice but to pay for it. Add to that that a free market system is a lot more inefficient and does very little to help people who are not profitable enough.
I want to add to that that I believe a 100% state run health care system is not any good as well. That is the reason most European countries have both a Goverment and private sector for health care.
@ The wicked lady
There are several theories about the low life expectancy in the us. Wich is 79.8 years when compensated for deaths by car accidents, guns and the opiod epidemic.
Something to keep in mind is that until the 1980s there was no difference in the life expectancy between our countries. |
| AnthonyKingAngels | Thursday, July 18, 2019 - 12:27 pm
Hi everyone hows all going? |
| Letsie | Thursday, July 18, 2019 - 02:09 pm
@ John Galt
In your post you commented about how the top 50% of Americans, defined by income, live 3-5 years longer then the top 50% wealthy Canadians.
Could you please post a link? I have been trying to find that data but have not been able to find it and I am really interested in it. |
| Johanas Bilderberg | Thursday, July 18, 2019 - 02:44 pm
The Netherlands also enjoys free national defense paid for by the American taxpayers.
Makes it a lot easier to look down your nose at backwards countries without high taxes and socialized medicine. |
| Letsie | Thursday, July 18, 2019 - 03:31 pm
@ Johannas Bilderberg
At this point I am wondering if you are just trolling or if you are being serieus. All I am asking of you is to provide something to back up what you are saying about health care.
Johan galt for example made several really interesting and good points which has proven to me that health care is a really complex issue all over the world. It would be nice if you could do the same so that we can at least have a proper discussion.
If you have really read through everything then you could have also seen that I have said multiple times that there are also parts of the US health care system that are really good.
As for your point about the military, if you want to discus the benefits of that could we please do this in another thread? I would like Johan Galt and anybody else interested in this subject to be able to follow any discussions here. |
| Johanas Bilderberg | Friday, July 19, 2019 - 01:12 am
It is very relevant to the argument. In fact it negates your entire argument.
Europe can afford socialized medicine, welfare, free universities, refugees, and the entire left wing American hating platform only because the American taxpayers have subsidized their national defense for the past 70 years. Barring that your nation would have had to spend hundreds of billions of euros preparing to stop the Soviet tanks from rolling through Germany and to the North Sea coast.
I am not bashing your national choices I am simply stating the facts. |
| John Galt | Friday, July 19, 2019 - 02:24 pm
France
http://www.niussp.org/article/new-data-on-life-expectancy-and-standard-of-living-in-france/,http://www.niussp.org/article/new-data-on-life-expectancy-and-standard-of-living-in-france/
UK
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30214-7/fulltext
US
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4866586/
Canada (older data so compare 2005-2007)
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/82-624-x/2011001/article/chart/11427-06-chart5-eng.htm
Im not sure why this is so controversial. Of course productive people will have better outcomes in a free market system because the only limit on care is income. In a socialized system the limits on care are systemic, so while the poor will be elevated, the rich will be declined. Since there are generally more poor than rich, you will see higher averages in socialized systems. |
| The Big Show Goldberg | Friday, July 19, 2019 - 05:01 pm
Wow, this thread has got worse than i thought. |
| The Big Show Goldberg | Saturday, July 20, 2019 - 09:34 am
I AM NO LONGER PART OF GODS FAMILY ANY MORE AND I AM NOT A GOD I HAVE DISOWNED HIM BECAUSE HE DOESNT WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY MORE, HES FINISHED FOR GOOD. |
| The Big Show Goldberg | Saturday, July 20, 2019 - 11:27 am
Ignore my thread its over, i havent finish my work with God yet. |
| Letsie | Monday, July 22, 2019 - 08:44 am
@johannes
Once again you are wrong. Just so you know the cold war era has been over for almost 30 years. During that time period your point had a lot more truth to it but now? Well lets see shall we I will do this one more time.
Nothing is free. We in Europe generally feel it is worth it to pay more taxes so that everybody can have better education and health care. This does not make it free most americans seem to have a hard time understanding this. This is why health care spending is ussually calculated in a % of gdp.
You are paying for our defences? .... Really?
The Total cost of US military troops in europe was 29.6B last year. 6.1B of that was for the EDI (european defense initiative)
The total european defense budget was 269B. The european defense budgets have been rising for 3 years in a row. For all 3 years the increases have been in the fastest in absolute and relative numbers second only to the US in the entire world.
To put these Numbers in perspective. 269B is more then 1.5 times the budget of China and more then 4 times that of rusia.
For the pas decade the european Arnies have been integrating more and more. We are not and never will be 1 army and this will be our biggest weakness. But to bluntly say something like: THE US TAX PAYERS PAY FOR YOUR DEFENSE is something you heard on VOX or from Trump and simply is no longer true. |
| The_Wicked_Lady | Monday, July 22, 2019 - 07:54 pm
So where is everyone from?
I've gathered that Letsie is from The Netherlands, John Galt from Canada, Robert E. Lee from the US, myself from the US. Johanas, where are you from? |
| The Big Show Goldberg | Monday, July 22, 2019 - 09:10 pm
Michael is from Australia. |
| The_Wicked_Lady | Monday, July 22, 2019 - 09:46 pm
Awesome! There are quite a few countries represented. I think that is what so awesome about the internet. :-D |
