| John Galt | Sunday, March 25, 2018 - 08:11 pm 
Is it possible to have the IPO requirements loosened up a bit for corporations. It can be difficult for established and fully upgraded corporations to reach both 400 B value and <40 P/E at the same time. |
| Andy | Sunday, March 25, 2018 - 08:37 pm
We will have another look into it.
we have reduced the market value limit several months ago but may indeed do it again. |
| abbotnettles | Monday, March 26, 2018 - 03:55 pm
If the P/E was lowered to <60 that would open up a lot of corps to go public. |
| Stratis | Monday, March 26, 2018 - 04:58 pm
It was pretty easy to IPO corps back when the requirement was to have a market value of 500b tbh. The drop to 400B seemed rather unnecessary to me at the time and I dont think it should be lowered even more. If you are having problems with it you either chose a corp that is objectively unprofitable or have yet to lower your tax and PT low enough for long enough. |
| John Galt | Monday, March 26, 2018 - 10:14 pm
My CEO Vandelay Industries on LU is quite profitable, making approx 400 B per game month profit. There isn't a single corporation in my possession that can become public under the current requirements. Something is wrong as all of my corporations generate a profit every month.
I think it should be 300 B and < 60 P/E. Or just remove the requirements entirely and let the market decide which public corps live or die. |
| John Galt | Monday, March 26, 2018 - 10:27 pm
Oh and for further evidence, look at the share market on any world. Look at the existing public corps that have a P/E below 40 on the market and check their market values. You will find that most of them are below 400B. |
| Letsie | Monday, March 26, 2018 - 11:43 pm
It's really easy with the lowering of the value to go public even I can do it and I'm not a good player. You might want to look at your strategies.
Just put the profit pay out at 0 for whatever fully upgraded corp you want to go public whith. Put some cash in it yourself if you want it to go faster so that it has at least 80B and give it a few months. It will be able to go public pretty fast. |
| Letsie | Monday, March 26, 2018 - 11:48 pm
Or you could just make them stock up on suplies a bit more. Like I said, it's really easy right now. It doesn't look to me there is any need to change anything. |
| SuperSoldierRCP | Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 12:01 am
Andy,
I disagree with this proposal. I'm normally for decreasing or changing stats when needed, but IPO'ing at this time do not need to be updated. I find its rather easy at this point to IPO with a little bit of work. Lowering the requirements I do not feel would be needed at this time. |
| Sheepman | Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 12:21 am
Honestly I will note for enterprises it might be harder based on country conditions to IPO corperations but as for countrys to IPO it is very easy. enterprises are a little more difficult to IPO if not in the right country. |
| Tom | Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 01:30 am
At the moment, for Presidents, it's very easy, perhaps too easy, to IPO corps. A good product, an ok national welfare index, decent corp strategy, 0% taxes and profit transfers, and you can fire off IPOs like fireworks, as a President.
For CEOs, this is a very different story. Since Corp Profits for IPO purposes, are only counted after Corporate Taxes, and Enterprise Taxes. This puts the CEOs at a huge disadvantage, having to pay 20% of their revenue to the nation, and more often then not, an additional 30% of their profits as well.
I'm not advocating removing those taxes. They are a necessary incentive for Presidents to host CEO corps in their nation, the President's are forgoing the profits from a State Corp that would of taken it's place. As well as giving up control of part of their nation.
However this situation does place CEOs at an unfair disadvantage when it comes to IPOs and frankly, if anything it's State corps that should find it hard to IPO, not CEO corps. How we achieve this though, is hard to say.
Signed President of DanNation on LU |
| Tom | Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 02:05 am
Giving it some thought, I've come up with an idea on how to improve the IPO situation for CEOs. As well as giving Presidents and CEOs more options on how to work together.
Currently, to the best of my understanding, the tax system in Simcountry works as follows. There are two tax rates for CEO Corps:
First, the Corporate Profit Tax. Most real world nations use this tax. Corporate Profit tax, is levied on Profits after costs have been taken into account. Currently the base rate for this tax in Simcountry is 30%. While there are nations with higher rates. It's extremely difficult to raise this tax and still have CEO Corps in your country. Because they can pay only 30% tax, if they relocate to a C3.
Second, The Enterprise/CEO/Country Resources Used Tax. This is a tax that largely doesn't exist in the real world. It's a tax on the Revenue of a Private Corporation, rather than the profit, which means it costs CEOs a lot of money, even when they don't have large profits. In Simcountry, this tax appears to be ~20% of Corp Revenue. It cannot be changed by President, it's a fixed rate tax, and it is completely out of player hands.
My suggestion is as follows:
Raise the base rate of the Corporate tax to 35% in C3s, while cutting the Country Resources Used Tax to ~15% (the exact tax rate is a first suggestion that would need to be properly balanced).
This change would give Presidents more power to operate high or low taxing countries, and work out the balance with CEO players located in their country. The cut in the Country Resources Used Tax, would lower the minimum amount of tax that a CEO can be charged. Enabling their Corps to be more profitable, and easier to IPO. However the higher base Corporate Profits tax would enable Presidents, to raise their Corporate Tax rate, while keeping CEOs in their Country. This would allow Presidents to continue to be compensated for hosting CEO corps, while also giving them the flexibility to offer lower overall taxes if they want.
Signed President of DanNation on LU |
| SuperSoldierRCP | Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 06:45 am
Everyone,
I think we are looking at this the wrong way. Right now we have a fix pie size, instead of trying to cut the pie into difference slices, Lets GROW the pie.
Andy,
Honest suggestion here. The GM has been working incredibly hard to increase the markets and to promote Quality and player trading. Honest thought here, Whats the chances of the GM increasing the "Production Process Quality" and "Production Process Effectivity" stats in states from 200 to 210, CEO from 225 to 230, and True "IPOS" from 250 to 260?
This would lead to increases in production, income, and quality in CEO corporations.
In addition, My math says that a True IPO could create 350Q materials because weapons corps have become so successful to the point that they are now being IPO a player being able to contract and sell 350Q assets would be a HUGE boost to the war game. This would also allow you to raise the buying quality for players from 330 to 350Q and due to the fact that Quality now has an effect on player nations this would only help to grow those ideas long term.
I think if we want players to create better goods, increase the markets, and provide deeper game play though resources a few extra points in these upgrade index's wouldn't hurt the game at all, but in fact would only enrich the current economic model. |
| Tom | Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 07:28 am
Andy,
I've read through SuperSoildierRCP's post. Regarding his suggestion of raising both the "Production Process Quality" and "Production Process Effectivity" limits for CEO Corps from 225 to 230, and for Truly Public Corps from 250 to 260. I would add to this that we would need an increase in the maximum quality that can be bought and sold on the markets, otherwise we'd risk Corps going over the maximum produced quality limits.
I generally support this proposal. Especially the "Production Process Effectivity" limit increase. This would help to improve the profitability of CEO Corps, making them easier to IPO. As well as making it more attractive to run an Enterprise in Simcountry. Additionally it would encourage more Players to work together, to build successful private Enterprise economies. The reduced total workforce requirements would encourage countries to open up to Enterprise investment, and raise the maximum level of development in our nations, by increasing the proportion of highly educated workers.
Also, these changes reflect the transformation of the real world economy since Simcountry was first developed. Automation is increasing the need for highly skilled workers, and reducing the overall size of the world's workforce requirements. For Simcountry to remain a true and fantastic simulation of our world, I think these advances should be modelled in-game.
Signed President of DanNation on LU |
| Mark C | Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 05:13 pm
I also agree |
| Khome | Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 05:27 pm
I have to say, there does seem to be less CEOs now. More incentive would be welcome, but I'd also would like to see more risk in trading and lending. Makes things more interesting. I know we don't want a global economic crisis though.. |
| Andy | Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 08:14 pm
Interesting suggestions
The contribution paid by enterprise corporations to the country where they reside is making these corporations very attractive to these countries.
Unfortunately, not all players understand how profitable it is to have these corporations.
Enterprises remain very profitable. despite these payments to the countries.
Increasing efficiency and production can be achieved in many ways but changes can destabilize markets.
At this time, corporations are doing good and can reach the required conditions for an IPO.
we should be careful and not temper with with the markets too much.
And there are many other things we could do:
We think that too many products use the same raw material and would like to see more diversification.
There are products that are used in too few corporations.
we improved two of them today but should do more.
We could define conditions that will allow corporations to grow further. Increase production, hiring and employment proportionally and profits too.
We should add some products, like electric power from corn or sugar sun and wind and link advantages for countries doing so.
We could introduce external services that can be used to replace one worker or one manager for one month and eliminate the fall in production that is the result of a shortage of a single profession.
These services could be used only in case a shortage occurs.
Too many corporations are reducing production due to a specific shortage. This is not realistic, and some players have no clue why production declines.
We could also introduce split production and have a car company produce three types of cars.
We have a consumption model behind it all. The products consumed and the percentages of income devoted to each product can be tuned and new "consumption" products can be introduces very easily.
What I am saying is:
The corporate model in Simcountry is working but could be extended tremendously. We are looking for "fun" reasons to do so. |
| abbotnettles | Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 09:32 pm
I put up a voting poll the other day for corps to produce materials from alternative means. We could even create a new by product of corporations and countries as they consume resources they produce garbage you could then have a new industry rise up to recycle the garbage back into the economy. |
| John Galt | Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 10:10 pm
Andy, for an oil corporation to IPO it would need to have a monthly profit of 833 million if it had a value of 400 B. Please show me real game examples of private CEO oil corps meeting the IPO requirements. I think most of the public oil corporations out there were made from state corps IPOing, which is incredibly easy as state corps do not have to pay country resources used fees.
If anyone has some tips I'm all ears. My corps are fully upgraded, 325 salary, 210 supply quality. |
| abbotnettles | Tuesday, March 27, 2018 - 11:15 pm
what you do is transfer cash into your corp then use your enterprise to buy resources and then sell directly to the corp to give it several years where it can run without buying more supplies. Then transfer in more cash, by completely removing the need to buy supplies you will push its overall profit higher. I also set the sale strategy to follow product quality +200 with a decrease in price by 25 per month. |
| John Galt | Wednesday, March 28, 2018 - 01:54 am
Ok so essentially you have to break the game to IPO a corporation as an enterprise. That doesn't seem right. A corporation should be able to IPO without resorting to gamey tricks like that. |
| abbotnettles | Wednesday, March 28, 2018 - 02:12 am
you can do it other ways that is just the easiest you can have an oil company make a 1B profit per month.
There are also other ways to manipulate the profits of your corps, but those require you to be a rather large enterprise with over 1,000 corps. |
| Tom | Wednesday, March 28, 2018 - 03:24 am
Andy,
Those are some truly fantastic ideas for the economic side of the game. It really makes me optimistic for the future of Simcountry.
The first stage of implementing what you talked about would probably have to do with the current Nuclear Power system.
Currently, Nuclear Power is sold separately to Electric Power, then transformed to Electric Power as soon as it reaches the buyer. This prevents Nuclear Power from being automatically traded like regular Electric Power on the International Market, and makes organising these Corps a real pain.
If Nuclear Power Corps were to sell their power as regular Electric Power, this would make them far easier to use. While also opening up the first opportunity to have multiple competing ways of producing the same product.
Of course Nuclear Power Corps would have to be balanced to have similar overall cost levels to Electric Power Corps for this to work well.
Thank you for all the time you spend on making this fantastic game.
Signed President of DanNation on LU |
| abbotnettles | Wednesday, March 28, 2018 - 04:07 am
Ideas for new corps
Utilities---
Water
Sewage
Services---
Waste Management
Recreation----
Zoo
Public Park
Amusement Parks
Government------
Library
Museum
Mining-----
Tin
Methane
Helium
Limestone
Salt
Cobalt
Agriculture------
Barley
Hops
Honey
Flax
Food-----
Beer
Mead |
| John Galt | Wednesday, March 28, 2018 - 03:33 pm
Oh and abbot, the cost of raw materials are subtracted from profits on a monthly basis despite preordering supplies in bulk. This is reflected on the corporation financial section. I'm assuming it uses those profit numbers to calculate P/E ratio. |
| Aristotle | Wednesday, March 28, 2018 - 10:44 pm
Hey Andy, were the IPO limits adjusted PROPORTIONALLY to the overall deflation that was introduced to the game years ago?
There was a time when countries could make over 1T/month WITHOUT loans, PRIOR to the loan interest nerf. I think when you introduced the stricter IPO limits, it was still in the period where good countries could make 500-600B/month.
If the limit for a corp is still 400B, then this is too high relative to how the game changes have depressed values.
Even back in the day, highly profitable corporations sat in the 500-600B range unless someone had ALL profit sharing and taxes turned off. Back when it was possible to debt-bomb hostile bids, you could usually get 1.5-2T from the tactic - i.e., 1-1.5T in loans on top of ~500B in corp value.
And let's be honest, the real reason IPO limits were introduced was because people had perfected Treasurer's IPO methods and were able to fully privatize their countries with their own CEOs and able to push their CEOs to 2000+ corps by farming out corps from their countries with the IPO method - two things that never matched YOUR vision of the game. The real problem is you have never had a particularly GOOD vision of the game to offer us - only nerfs when players figure out ways to game your broken system. I remember how the IRC chats went back in the day. |
| abbotnettles | Thursday, April 5, 2018 - 01:53 am
its still possible to drop small debt bombs of a few hundred billion. |
| Michael Wilson | Thursday, April 5, 2018 - 03:30 am
Hey if you want to play the sharemarket, you got to drop Tax and Profit Transfer to 0% its the only way to get your value up to 400B and lower the P/E ratio, it worked for me. |
| Alfonsocsr | Thursday, April 5, 2018 - 07:23 am
Rewrite, it double posted. |
| Alfonsocsr | Thursday, April 5, 2018 - 07:26 am
Also i know that I’m new to this simulation but if it works like the stock market and supply and demand. Than if a product is in high demand and that pushes the price of the product high than the company will make more money which in turn will give the right requirements of an IPO. The reason not so many companies can do IPOs is because it’s all based on supply and demand and economics. I have to say this is an engineering masterpiece. To get to this level of detail is really great. I love this. I plan to be a long time premium member. I can tell a lot of love was put into this and creating it. |
