| Lord Lee (Little Upsilon) | Sunday, March 25, 2012 - 03:11 am 
Why aren't there any gold coins to trade for game money available on the market?
Lord Lee. |
| Inanna (Little Upsilon) | Monday, March 26, 2012 - 12:48 am
Because I keep buying them all. :s Soz... |
| Phoenix King | Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 08:13 am
Becuase its not a free market there is a floor price and a roof price and the equilibrum is at 74B |
| Tom Morgan | Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 10:17 am
Incorrect. An equilibrium is being blocked by a price ceiling.
Economics bazinga. |
| Commander Pe@cE | Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 12:11 pm
I am a returned player. I remember it used to be 2 pages full of offer. Maybe there were too little players or less people active playing. |
| NiAi | Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 02:10 pm
Atm there is a over-supply of Goldcoins. Wc3 are blocking the price of GCs to adjust (as Tom Morgan said).
More new players would increase demand of GCs. Let hope for a new boom. Until then one will have to offer GC at cap and then wait ~week for it to be listed at top which is when it will actually have a chance to be sold. |
| Andy | Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 02:57 pm
Coins are used each day to purchase game money.
we see quite some transactions.
there are obviously more buyers for gold coins than sellers.
Countries and enterprises are profitable and there is probably too much game money in the market. |
| Orbiter | Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 04:16 pm
we complain that their is not enough GC, and the GM tells us, in response, that their is to much money in sc. maybe it'd be worth our while to shut up?!? |
| Christopher Michael | Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 05:51 pm
Yeah, cut our profits in our countries and CEO's more than you already have........
That's just what would make us happy.
Players, take Orbiter's advice. |
| Crafty | Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 05:53 pm
Nope Andy, I, just like many others I would guess, wont sell their GC for such a low price.
You really should remove the cap and let supply and demand determine the price. |
| Andy | Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 08:05 pm
We see that players who need game money can always get it. this is considered important. if this will not be the case, we will solve that problem.
The cap was in place for a long time and also when the GM participated in the market.
the change in the market came about when the GM stopped dealing in that market.
Many players have very large amounts of game money. 1000T is not an exception.
this is where demand for gold coins comes from.
so yes, there is a lot of game money around and some players want to exchange it into gold coins in numbers that are larger than the number of gold coins in the hands of players who are looking for game money. This is obviously not possible. You need buyers.
There are many exchanges every day and many of these players who hold large amounts of cash are selling some of it for gold coins.
If everyone with 300T and up will stop offering their cash for gold coins, the market will quickly stabilize.
We in fact do not see any problem here that needs an intervention.
Players who are in need of game money, can get it.
There is however no right of exchange into gold coins. some times it is possible, some times it is not.
As to exchange rates, we look at the income and cost on a large scale and the total game wide profit in all countries and enterprises and this determines the exchange rate. It is where it should be. If income and cost will decline, the exchange rate will decline too, to compensate for the lost value.
If income and cost will increase and game wide profit will become higher, the exchange rates will increase. |
| Madoff | Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 10:31 pm
GC seems to fund much of the economy.
GC buys game money, population, countries, CEOs.... Game levels seem to be about GC awards.
If there is "too much game money in the market", as Andy says, isn't it because there is too much GC saturating the economy?
Is this game a simulation of the real world? Or is it a GC collecting game? |
| dboyd3702 | Monday, June 18, 2012 - 12:13 am
Wouldn't the "fair" price of GC be priced based on demand?
That is whay I currently refuse to sell GC... |
| Marshal Ney | Monday, June 18, 2012 - 12:27 am
There is too much game money in the market - and unless future recessionary changes are linked to a drop of money in circulation, it will continue to be so in proportion to those changes.
Holding onto cash makes a lot of sense in the current climate, because it multiplies economic advantages. |
| Andy | Monday, June 18, 2012 - 12:44 am
In the real world, people accumulate money, gold, shares, bonds, real estate etc.
In the game too, they accumulate whatever they think is right.
Fair price is not always the free market. If some hold very large amounts of game money, the market is not balanced and they could drive the market to unrealistic rates.
This is also the reason some players do not need or want to sell gold coins. they have enough cash and do not need to sell gold coins. |
| dboyd3702 | Monday, June 18, 2012 - 02:09 am
Or the value of the Gold Coin itself is worth more as a Gold Coin then the minor amount of Cash you can exchange it for. |
| maclean | Monday, June 18, 2012 - 10:16 am
@ dboyd: (and everyone else, for that matter)That is the current mindset among most players. This is probably the real reason VA was frozen; players were simply creating their own markets for GC, most at 100B each, which is easy to figure and most of us can live with. This is called a fair and free market. However, that means the Game only sells GC when players re-up the registration, or get so desperate (because no one wants to sell gc at 76) that they whip out the plastic. They have to, because so many features of the game are now GC-dependent, and cash won't do you a bit of good, even if you're richer than Croesus in cash. If the Game was to sell GC at 100B each, this situation would stabilize instantly, mostly by demonstrating that there will be a supply independent of player hoarding (and hording is not a bad thing, it is self-preservation). Meanwhile, uncertainty about future GC availability makes us hoard GC, since we don't know where we're going to get any more without wielding the aforementioned instrument of transmogrification. In the real world, when an uber-government decrees that the people have too much money, and simply takes it, as has been suggested as a possibility, revolt generally ensues. Not sure how this will apply in the game, other than mass secession... although, something similar happened in the Weimar repulic in Germany in the 1920's. This contributed greatly to the rise of that fellow with the toothbrush mustache, strident voice, and a large chip on his shoulder.
@ orbiter: I think you may be right. Of couse, I am opening my mouth right now, but I don't think I've left a loop-hole to further devaluation.  |
| maclean | Monday, June 18, 2012 - 10:21 am
Almost forgot: @ NiAi: I'd like some proof that there is an OVERSUPPLY of GC, when most of us can't buy any for love or money (figuratively speaking) I will buy 500 GC from you at the cap rate of 76B each. |
| Andy | Monday, June 18, 2012 - 03:32 pm
Maclean,
Everyone who wants game money can get it. this is important.
For your info, in the Weimar republic, hyper inflation destroyed the value of cash anyone had. It became worthless.
Here, the opposite happened and cash gained value and deflation reduced the price of everything.
Hoarding is fine. both of cash and gold coins and I did not see any move to take anything from anyone. There is a lot of cash and it explains what happens, not more.
Most players don't have this "problem". They just go about their business, earn game money and exchange gold coins when they need more.
Some players produce all kinds of products; Cargo shuttles and other space products, nuclear products and others. The cost of production is in game money.
They sell the products on the space market for gold coins.
There is no oversupply of gold coins. This is why everyone who wants game money, can get it instantly. |
| Madoff | Monday, June 18, 2012 - 04:04 pm
But are GC needed in a simulation?
GC are a magical currency, with no equivalent in the real world.
Real world countries don't magically buy population using money funded by GC. Real world enterprises don't magically eliminate debt with cash bought by GC.
If there is too much cash, it's precisely because of the oversupply of magical gc used to buy cash.
If the economy and enterprises can't work without magical GC injections, then this is not a simulation. Perhaps the game should be renamed GCcountry. |
| Kitsune | Monday, June 18, 2012 - 09:41 pm
Quote:there are obviously more buyers for gold coins than sellers.
If there are more buyers than sellers, the price is too low.
This situation is caused by a price ceiling. |
| Pat Quinn | Monday, June 18, 2012 - 09:51 pm
You can't dictate price and expect supply and demand to work properly. The GM's aren't out of the market if they are controlling price. |
| maclean | Tuesday, June 19, 2012 - 12:48 am
"Most players don't have this "problem". They just go about their business, earn game money and exchange gold coins when they need more. "
Tell me, where are they exchanging game money for these alleged coins? To anyone out there, I have been asking to trade game money for gold coins for weeks now, with no takers. Is there a conspiracy to not sell me any GC, or is it that the statement above is false? How do I get these GC when VA is disabled? Crafty, sell me 1000 CG for 76T. Or else respond here as to why you won't. ( I know why, by the way, good chap, this is rhetorical, but reply anyway, please).
"Everyone who wants game money can get it. this is important. "
This is true; You sell GC if you have any; people are scrambling like epileptics playing musical chairs, to get these GC.
By way of illustration, I am going to start a thread to prove that I can't get any GCs or to prove that I am wrong and you are right. It will be there for all to see. Hey, at the worst, I end up with GCs!
"...there is probably too much game money in the market." Isn't this a prelude to reducing (aka "taking") game cash?
If population, for example, was purchasable using game cash insted of GC, that would be one thing. But you are suggesting that players get GC by building shuttles and space products and doing space trading, to get them. These industries are money-losing propositions, which in effect, inflate the value of the GCs earned in this way astronomically. Plus you have to shell out 50 of these GC every month for a space dock just to get these expensive coins.
"There is no oversupply of gold coins..."
I didn't say that, but another player did; I agree with you, there is no oversupply of gold coins, the same way there is no oversupply of Klansmen in an NAACP rally. This is, in fact my point.Thank you.
I am just trying to reconcile what you are saying with what the situation is in reality. They don't seem to match, or else I am missing something very obvious.
For your info, I am aware that hyper-inflation was the culprit in Weimar Germany; The same situation does in fact apply here. Bread was selling for 2Billion Deutschmarks a loaf, but no one would sell at that price. |
| Christopher Michael | Tuesday, June 19, 2012 - 02:33 am
And here we are yet again at it with the GM's over GC's.
This problem is NEVER GOING AWAY until some player friendly moves and decisions are made. |
| Marshal Ney | Tuesday, June 19, 2012 - 03:40 am
"Here, the opposite happened and cash gained value and deflation reduced the price of everything."(Andy)
Precisely what I've been saying.
Mac, the government influences the amount of money in circulation all the time in every country with a central banking system.
And currency is constantly affected by deflation and/or inflation.
Reducing the amount of liquidity in the game, after those deflationary changes would be revenue neutral - you'd still have the same amount of purchasing power as before. Not inflated. The net result of those changes was to expand everyone's purchasing power - besides the GC issue, everyone that's into the loan market should take heed if that is a significant factor in your income.
M. Ney |
| maclean | Tuesday, June 19, 2012 - 04:47 am
True, Marshall, but here we have an artificial system which has a 2-tier economy. Imagine if, in the real world, hypothetically, you had to pay for gasoline and food with gold bullion only. No one wants to sell their gold, because they cannot survive without it. Gold jumps from $300/oz to $2500/oz. Sure, there is no gold shortage, there are tons of it out there, but no one will risk selling. But you can buy it from the government at $3500/oz. A similar situation is occurring here. IMO. |
| xiong | Tuesday, June 19, 2012 - 05:55 am
very interesting discussion here
my primitive view is that the gm/game owner is trying to have its standard base on the gc.
now we have a system that goes like this
SC$GCUS$
i have been advocating to get rid of either SC$ or GC and just have two exchanging currencies in the game. ideally, get rid of gc as it isn't use in the buying and selling of goods (products and services) with the sc corps.
having a three currency system as i've indicated above is much like the US$ which is base on Fort Knox's gold as well as say a UN currency; as we all know, there is no UN currency on earth.
players pay US$ to get the game money, which now is gc. but their corps generate SC$, not gc?
if the gm/game owner relies on gc, but is not offering at the market situation (supply and demand) as some of you pointed out, then obviously the participants (players) will create their own market. eventually some of the better players will collect gc and not sell on the market, thus create a dis-equilibrium situation in the game.
and if in the real world such as earth, if i'm a chicken farmer and i want cows, then will just rade my chicken for cows with another cow farmer. eventually the monetary system just fail in the country.
why can't we keep this simple and stupid, so that we all can have fun?
the reality is that US$ is the real controller of whatever currency is in sc.
it will be challenging to have two controllers in this game, which are currently gc and US$.
US$ is the real world, and gc is just the virtual world. gc will be squeeze out, if there are too many collectors of it and if there are fewer and fewer players coming into the game.
why not just say set a base SC$ to US$, such as $1 per 1T SC$? and anyone wanting to exchange their currencies between reality (earth) and virtual (sc), can do so easily and more simple and stupid?
hope i'm not confusing some of you econ experts |
| maclean | Tuesday, June 19, 2012 - 12:03 pm
I think I get your drift, xiong, but one of the original attractions of the game was that if you managed your countries and their economies wisely, and kept tweaking the settings for max econ efficiency as markets changed, no US$ would be needed to expand your countries/empire. Except for registration, which is reasonable. I must admit, I like you idea of being able to trade $sc for US$, as that could then be used to buy GC. The gamemasters could even get back into selling GCs and make actual money from this game. A win-win for everyone, if there was an accounting system added into the game, so that it would be easier to do the in-game exchanges. I know what they'll say, that provisions already exist for selling game assets for real money, but the conditions are practically impossoble to meet. What would end all this, as I and several others have said until we are blue in the face, is to let the players establish their own freewill trade, and everything would even out within a week. Instead, they shut down the VA trading sytem so no trades can take place. |
| xiong | Tuesday, June 19, 2012 - 03:01 pm
maclean,
if one of the sc moneys (sc$ and gc) is not terminated, then we will continue to have this problem forever.
the only obstacle that player cannot physically trade cheese for eggs in sc is that everything is virtual, thus an intermediary has to be involved.
if it was in the physical world (i.e. earth), and you want a few nukes and i want a few precision bombers, we could trade directly without any form of money being involved. you just truck/fly over the bombers to me and i just truck/flyover the nukes for you.
my point is to eliminate one of the currency in sc, and rather that gc be eliminated since every thing in sc involves sc$.
that's exactly what i'm trying to get at. from the start, you pay us$ to get a premium membership. then you build your simcountry/empire which generates sc$, and you can have the option of trading your sc$ directly back to us$. if you want more sc$ for your country/empire, you can exchange at the gm rate or with other players who has plenty of sc$.
i haven't been here long enough, but i'm sure my vision is clear on this. the only reason i can think of having gc, is that the gm wants to control the exchange rate back to us$. but just looking at the many posts on this forum, players are bypassing that system. |
| robmcmanus1 | Tuesday, June 19, 2012 - 03:33 pm
I'm all for free markets with the checks and balances of a central banking system, and I think this discussion is very robust. I do think that there are a few factors, not being fully considered here.
New players, even smart ones, will take a while to become familiar with the mechanics and nuances of the game. The dangling of the opportunity to "play for free" with well run economies is a good incentive to keep playing the game and to learn how to play well. Even smart players, however, need some encouragement to stay in the game and be interested players until this steady state might be achieved.
I believe that experienced players benefit from this encouragment, because the SC and other items given as gifts, and the GC for game levels, is likely spent on products and population and game cash more often than not sold by experienced players in game. Of course, in game SC is spent on products produced by player and NPC corps.
If a cap on GC for cash, and GM pumping of new player economies is the price for not scaring away new players once they realize just how far ahead experienced players are in the economy, then that might be good for everyone.
Just my two cents. |
| xiong | Tuesday, June 19, 2012 - 11:39 pm
it just seem like a very simple solution.
gm/game owner will always control the sc$ (if sc$) is chosen as the game currency. it's like the USA always control the us$, but the us$ can always be exchange with our earth countries' currencies as well. in sc, we do not have other sc countries' currencies; everything in sc is one currency.
trying to have the gc to be the intermediary or translation between sc$ and us$ is like earth is trying to create a earth currency to be the translation/intermediary between all the earth countries' currencies. earth is more complicated then sc, due to that each country has its own currency, which is base on the productivity/resources of that particular country. i have yet to see japanese trying to use their currency yen to trade/exchange for american gold yet; it's normally between yen and us$
free market can exist in sc too, but the gm trying to use two currencies to control the game is like you trying to drive two cars at the same time. yeah, one car will crash and become useless because everyone is on the other sc$ while only newbees are on the gc car. |
| xiong | Wednesday, June 20, 2012 - 12:39 am
it's beginning to seem like the gm/owner do not want to just have one currency such as sc$ in the game, then change/exchange directly with the us$, perhaps because the gm/owner is afraid that some players will become so good in the game that these players will have countries which generate a great amount of sc$?
since sc$ are generated base on a country's productivities, changing the formulas to reduce the production of sc$ would have great consequence on the game.
on the other, if you're going to create a product for the world market, why would you be afraid that it would go viral and that you may not be able to contain its growth? somehow the gm/owner seem to want a steady control of the game assets (growth/decay).
just a thought while i'm waiting for my country to produce more sc$ so i can buy weapons to take out the c3 around me |
| Phoenix King | Wednesday, June 20, 2012 - 08:25 pm
Wow |
| Rick | Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 10:24 am
OK Xiong, no more Nobel Prizes.
Get out your plastic...buy CG...get on with it |
| xiong | Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 10:31 am
rick,
i'm waiting to independence day to start |
| maclean | Friday, June 22, 2012 - 11:32 am
hehe |
