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Thursday, February 9, 2012 - 05:03 pm  This is not a test. There are some players, or a group of them, who are intentionally tanking some very lucrative markets. I'm only going to say this once. Trade responsibly. If I continue to see dismal profits and negative gains because of your actions I'm going to change the game to Universal Suffer-age. If I cannot make money the good old fashioned way, I guess we'll have to return to the days of old. I want my muuney! Think about that. This is the end of the message.
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| Thursday, February 9, 2012 - 07:19 pm the same thing happens to me. I am ended up above 30T for all emterprises. I think someone stole my profits
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| Thursday, February 9, 2012 - 09:09 pm Huh ?
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| Thursday, February 9, 2012 - 11:09 pm You go girl! Again!
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| Friday, February 10, 2012 - 03:11 am Is this affecting the markets on Golden Rainbow also?? I have NEVER seen the FMU market in the green......ever!
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| Friday, February 10, 2012 - 07:40 am So people are reserving some production, waiting for a shortage, and selling? Which could mean CEOs such as myself could build a few corps for a product in high shortage and the next day find out there's no shortage...
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| Friday, February 10, 2012 - 03:13 pm These players are only aping the behavior of the ever-beloved supply fairy. When the supply of chaos gets too low, look for these things to happen. The FMU situation on KB has yet to recover from the last meddling, and those of us who sweated to make level 5 or 6 so we could build FMU corps are now building level 1 sevice corps to make some money. It is impossible to make any kind of long-term economic plan, because of this "deus ex machina" factor.
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| Friday, February 10, 2012 - 03:26 pm On the other hand, it could be a conspiracy involving the GM, and players who are actually operatives for the CIA, recruited as double agents from the former KGB (which still exists under the NKVD), using the game to send coded messages to the Illuminati via the Tri-Lateralists. This starts to make sense when you see "shortages" or "surpluses" which have no economic basis. And have you noticed how the price of GCs has been plummeting? Don't tell me that is coincidence. Operatives from the federal reserve, which is neither federal nor a reserve, may be consorting with either this bunch or the goons from the Bohemian Grove (some of whom are the same people) and spinning the facts with the help of MK-Ultra. 
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| Friday, February 10, 2012 - 11:15 pm I'm closer to Maclean's last post on the matter. I'm sorely disappointing in how this behavior is affecting the markets. I've tug-o'-warred enough with these CEO's and countries to make them profitable to stand by and watch players fuzz the markets up, friend or foe. Enough is enough.
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| Friday, February 10, 2012 - 11:49 pm On the positive side, cheaper FMUs mean higher profits (or smaller losses) for all corps.
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 12:03 am No David, it means Horrible losses for all my FMU corps. It isn't polite, you could sell FMUs on the market and make money. I shouldn't have to take massive losses while you and Aqua tank the FMU markets. Not just on a single world, but all of them. That is a little short sighted. It is clear that words won't stop you, but that's cool. I thought this wouldn't have to get our of hand.
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 12:06 am You could purchase FMU from FB and shuttle them to where your corps are, supply them and enjoy the savings. You don't have to tank the entire market game wide, and convince me you are doing us all some kind of favor. There I go again, trying to use my words.
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 02:52 am Ah bless, I do love you. It is true that Aqua and I have been shuttling massive amounts of FMUs. However, it is not true that I have dumped anything on the markets. Not one of my sales caused part of any of the problems. I sell in a very strategic way in order not to affect the markets. In fact, the majority of my FMUs have supplied my Holdings enterprise on LU which uses over 100k a month. Aqua, on the other hand, does buy vast and dump vast. I have spoken to him about this and despite him saying that he'll strategically buy and sell with little affect to the market, he does not. I, personally, don't see the point in creating a downward pressure on price when one is selling. May as well just spread the sales. I have also realised that activity in space increased dramatically for a period and others have transported large numbers of FMUs.
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 03:29 am "Aqua, on the other hand, does buy vast and dump vast. I have spoken to him about this and despite him saying that he'll strategically buy and sell with little affect to the market, he does not." This does not surprise me at all. There is a long history of this player (Aqua) doing things against the interest of not only his own (former) Federation, but also to the detriment of himself. There is certainly nothing wrong with making money in the game, however, when a CEO and/or president is mapping his/her economic strategies and plans, and builds according to the shortages/overages of a specific product, this 'dumping' effect has heavy consequences for all of us that have worked hard to get where we are.
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 03:46 am David's eloquent prose and soft nature always impress me. He never fails to present a calm rationale in times of violent turbulence on the horizon. I have sold tons of several different products and made my money without tanking any markets. And trust me I'm thinking I am setting some serious records on profits from product trading. The only FMU market to go belly up was FB. And at first, it was the supply fairy. But WG, GR, KB and LU especially have been incredibly stable. This sudden overturn of green "by the millions" on these worlds reeks of market manipulation. All I'm saying is that this and record numbers of profits can be made without tanking any market. The whole idea of tanking a market just bothers me some kind of way. It makes "no economic sense" to quote some random simcountry error.
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 12:40 pm Trading irresponsibly on an interplanetary basis has to incredibly short sighted. Those players that have the infrastructure to complete trades on a scale large enough to tank markets DO NOT NEED to do it and makes it harder for newer players to achieve the same position. From what I have read in the forums the GM's have consistantly come up with changes that discourage various "exploits" like this. I'm sure that most would agree that some of these changes have benefited the game and some have not. What changes may happen? How about interplanetary import tax of 20-25% or disallow trading in this way completely - maybe restrict trading between planets to space stations i.e. all products must change hands /empires before unloading on planet. Although there are some that would prefer more direct action - bring in the space fighters! Piracy, got to love it...
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 12:50 pm How about, limiting the number of specific corps you can build. Pour Exampleuh:- HouseHold Products are a favourite for everyone. Max that to, hmmm, 15, maybe 20? Electric, 10. Flat. Fmu, 15 - 20. Oil, 15 - 20. Services 15 - 20 etc etc This would encourage people to build different corporations and perhaps meet the demand for many other products. Just an idea.
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 04:26 pm Sunny, it is always a good idea to diversify your corp. building strategies, and thank you for bringing it up. The point still remains that we have players who forget the premise that for every action there is a reaction, and these reactions have a ripple effect on the rest of us i.e. the example that ARCCUK gave on possible consequences from the GM.
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 04:38 pm The Game already dictates to many things against the players so limiting the number of particular corps you can have is way over the top. Out of all the corps available only a tiny, tiny amount of them make money and you suggest a limit on those tiny few?? That's just nuts. How about the GM's loosening the noose on those companies that don't make money so there are more that do??? If one corp tanks because of some long time huge player who think the game owes them something decides to blow it out then there would be many more to choose from. Players could actually build more then just 5 profitable types of companies. Give me a break, there are so many types of companies to build but this game only allows for maybe 6 or 7 of them to make money??? That is a joke and we all know it!!! If the gm's constrict the profit machine they force more people to buy from the game and that is exactly what they want.
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 04:38 pm So, in order to curb a few players from over trading, Arc you propose an interplanetary import tax of 25%. Do you work for Simcountry or us. The idea is not a good one. This needs to be addressed on a player to player level. The gms cannot be summoned to solve every problem and another added cost is certainly not the way to go about it either. Your proposal is not very well thought through. A tax like that would discourage participation in the already thin space trading market and would be cumbersome to implement. Too many variables.
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 04:41 pm Damn good points Redman, and sunny, I don't think penalizing players by restricting the number of product specific corps you can build is going to solve any of this. If David cannot reason with Aqua, then I think something else is on order. David is about the best person to reach out to him. If I say something I may just start a war. We're fedded so that is the last thing I want. But I want to make money with my corps even more.
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 04:53 pm And to be clear, Trading products in space is NOT an exploit. It is perfectly within the bounds of the game. Trading products is exactly what the feature was designed to do. Just because we don't agree with Aqua's actions doesn't mean he is exploiting anything. He is making poor choices. He could make just as much money if not more by NOT tanking the market. He is just impatient. And is killing his own profit margin with his impatience. As well as the corp building everyone else is doing. This has nothing to do with big/small players. Any newbie with 10 shuttles could accomplish the same thing. Their game minds just have not progressed that far in terms of figuring out how to squeeze a profit from the game past country building. I really didn't expect this thread to take such a turn I just thought I would reach out to those who knew what they were doing and ask them to think about a stop to flooding the market with product. He is shooting himself in the foot along with everyone else who has product for sale on the planets he is shipping to. This is not a GM problem. This is a player problem. Diplomacy should work. David by far like as in Lunar Miles far is the best political mind and voice I have come into contact with in the game to date. Hopefully it can be worked out among the players. If not there are other measures to take but community has to be the mechanism to deal with things like this. The question is, does the community have to the stones and backbone to impose it's collective will upon a player. Probably not, so we'll need to rely on David. Most likely crying to the gm will result in some change or modification that will have a completely adverse outcome to what you think you wanted or came to expect. Remember War Levels(Duuh Loosing!!!)
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 06:22 pm no i dont propose an import tax, but rather use it as an example. there is always a possibility of such a measure being implemented by the gm's to stop markets being tanked due to unrestricted trading between planets, and do point out that previous game changes have discouraged certain activities that were deemed unacceptable but negatively affected other aspects of the game. again, i repeat these are conclusions drawn from posts i have read, not personal experience. I work for neither the gm or for you ("us"). perhaps my post was lazy and i didnt fully explain my meaning. no-one in this post so far has called for gm intervention but rather tried to add to the argument against tanking markets by pointing out that gm intervention may result from it. as for my call for space fighters I really can't wait! so that ones for real i certainly wouldnt go "crying" to the gm over this or any player action within the current game "rules" as i know how far that would get me. I did what I always do; refocus, adjust and move forward again.
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 06:39 pm and to be clear ;) a new player will find it increasingly difficult to start their own space centre if profits from corps cannot be relied upon, especially if their is a limit put on the quantity of each type corp a player can build OR the frequent manipulation of markets continues. So two or three points we agree on PH? Backbone to stop the manipulation? I guess my "game mind" has not progressed enough yet. Either that or I have not yet enough GC or SC$ to retaliate. Still want space fighters though!
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 07:21 pm * "respond" is probably the word i meant to use instead of "retaliate" just in case im mis-understood again.... I really MUST start to preview before posting!
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 07:41 pm I agree GM intervention is not needed. It will lead to a knee-jerk reaction and limit the game even further. Limits restrict the diversification within the game. I have tried to call Aqua (Lord Lee) and he is unavailable at the moment. I shall endeavour to try later. He has told me he still makes money but doesn't seem to care about the deminishing margins on his trades, despite saying he will trade strategically from then on. Seems crazy to me. This is very much a player to player issue. This problem is likely to happen more frequently as more players enter space and begin erratically trading, especially if they're unaware of the issues. I have spoken with Aqua about discussing with the player community about a generally accepted space trade understanding. It has now started. We could draw up a general principle in which can be advertised in the forum with players expressing their support. The prime motive here is to raise awareness for existing and new players, especially those about to enter space, and demonstrate the overwhelming support from the playing community to it.
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 08:00 pm Let us face facts here, it is going to be up to the bigger, long time players to regulate the space market and try to set in place checks and balances. Since the space market is the pinnacle of the pyramid, time is needed for us newer players to reach a point where we can have 10 shuttles to trade there AND to afford the docks. As a newer player, we have to have the countries and corps to produce and pay for the products we would like to trade. Since these take time to develope there is little we can hope to do. It is not that I am "narrow" minded right now and do not see the big picture, it just takes time to learn the game, expand to multiple worlds, watch out for more experienced players taking our countries via military take over and develope our enterprises. Heck I tried to rent a space dock on Cervus just to get into space and I can not even rent one. All the empty space docks are gamemaster docks and you can only "buy" on cervus atm for 200 GC. So, it will take some time for me to develope to the point to even help you all. : ( I guess my point is that you have started the discussion here and hopefully something will be constructively accomplished with this type of thread. Just remember the game does have new players who like playing and would like to get to the point where some of you are at, just do not give up on us. Some of us do see the "big picture" and would like to develope to the point of making an impact. : ) But as of now, the fledgeling space market is in your hands.
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 08:25 pm Well said QB! I second that opinion. As much as i'd like to be a part of helping, i'm just starting out basically and it will take a bit more time before my resources are to the point where I can trade across worlds like you vets do currently. But I look forward to being able to contribute to the space economy in the future with the guidance and expertise learned from you veteran players.
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 11:24 pm Hi Wendy. You and Aqua Fedded, now thats gonna be interesting ;) Anyways, with all due respect, do you not think that our own captains of capitalism in the real world dont use this dumping strategy to de-stabilize markets of the world and individual countries for there own ends? Whether it be for profit or politics?
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| Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 11:34 pm This happened in 12 hours. What the hell. I was only giving a idea anyway, no need to attack me 
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| Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 12:34 am I'm sorry if I came across that way Sunny. I wasn't attacking you. I'm just a bit miffed at how many companies there are and how few actually run in the green.
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| Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 12:46 am ....and by green I mean make money. : D
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| Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 01:29 am I concur with NO GM INTERVENTION. There needs to be pressure put on those who 'rig the system' so to speak from within the Simcountry Community. Also, don't put all your eggs in one basket- spread your corps among different products rather than having 750 oil corps. People will rort the system, regardless of 'action', and when it does it is up to those who are most at risk to protect their assets. Food for thought, T
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| Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 02:48 am I am a veteran, and as of right now, I'm not pursuing the space game; however, this manipulation of the markets on this grand of a scale affects ALL of us, both new and veteran. Everyone here can help shape policy.
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| Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 03:16 am Haha Nix, Me and Aqua fedded lol. This is a testament to David's political potency. David is one of the coolest mannered individuals in the face of adversity. I can't speak to that enough. There were a lot of comments here and I want to respond to them all, but I need some time to absorb the posts and properly respond. Arc I like your response and I like your adapt and move on method of dealing with things. Some people cannot be reasoned with, I used to be one of them. I think Aqua will stop or I will use my buying power to make sure there is no margin of profit for Aqua to continue this degree of trading. It is that simple. It will take a few days but it will still happen. I appreciate the feedback and conversation going on as a result of that original post. Talking is good. Player interaction is lacking big time in sim.
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| Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 03:23 am David, Your idea of putting down some guidelines on space trade is an excellent idea. A couple of examples of what you would consider constructive trading and trading that would actually hurt the market will make it much easier for newer players to understand the issue. And thanks Wendy, for bringing up the issue before it got out of hand. It,s good to see you back David, you always made so damn much sense in this game!
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| Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 03:44 am Whoa hey Rick, long time no hear from you. And Nix, yeah this is being done in Real life too. It sucks and is done under the "Free Trade" banner as in sim. Hopefully societies will awaken to the damage being done and come together to stop it. I would like you all to see this video and enjoy the ideas of togetherness and equality being presented here. Even if they are not your own ideas or close to your beliefs, we could discuss the better parts of the proposals and move on. The subject matter is a "Resource Based Economy"
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| Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 07:03 am Now if the GM would come through with space wars as he has promised, stuff like this could be resolved the old fasioned way
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| Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 07:14 am Touche Homer ....
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| Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 01:50 pm Dear international community, I encourage other players to get into space and trade. I would find it helpful if we could work to find a way forward for all of us. Lord Lee.
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| Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 02:47 pm AS I have stated before, I WOULD be in space IF the GM would rent some space docks. Currently there are NO space docks for rent on Cervus and I will NOT purchase one for 200GC since I do not have 200GC. Ready and willing as I may be, without space docks for rent I will simply remain on terra firma idly watching the night sky. If you check you will see very few if ANY docks for rent on any stations. I also understand that space component corps go out of business quickly, so this is GM issue which does tie into the space trade issue. The harder they make it to do the less people will try.
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| Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 03:25 pm The situation on Cervus is now corrected. Please mail us if you see a shortage on any of the stations. We will automate this process as soon as possible and solve the availability problem.
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| Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 03:26 pm For one you do not need a space dock to transport products from one planet to another so you can actually do trade with another planet without owning or renting a space dock. I am willing and open to any space trade agreement that we could al draw up and signed. Maybe setup a trading council Wendy?
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| Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 04:43 pm Yay! I am in space and thank you David for renting me a space. Thank you Andy for making docks available for other players to rent. Now everyone get your backsides into the space market! There is nothing like seeing weightless Ta Ta's! WooHOO!
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| Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 07:17 pm and what do weightless ta ta's have to do with the game?
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| Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 07:46 pm both are SOMEONES fantasy i spose sonneillon....
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| Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 09:12 pm Its all within the rules. There are many rules many of us dont like but they are the rules. At risk of becoming repetetive, "learn to adapt to change". It would be quite boring if nothing came along to challenge one. We would all end up at the same place, and then be moaning how there's nothing to do. Good luck if to Aqua if he thinks he can control a particular market. I seriously doubt he can for any period of time. I've seen many try and many fail. Including myself. Anyone remember Daconias electric corporation CEOs on every word?
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| Monday, February 13, 2012 - 12:07 am world*
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| Monday, February 13, 2012 - 01:15 am There could be a ban on players selling factory maintenance units on Little Upsilon. I would sign up to this international trade agreement. Lord Lee
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| Monday, February 13, 2012 - 02:38 am Trade is part of the game. I dont see why you should punish someone for buying oil @ $100 on one place then selling it for 500 on other (Thats how the stock market works buy low and sell high) I do VERY much agree that dumping so much that it collapse a market is wrong. Corps shouldn't go from making profit to losing money overnight because someone dumps a ton of goods. If the GM is to limit this they should add something where players can only "Sell" the same amount they can buy. IE Factory Maintenance Units Currently in Stock 0 units Base Price 1.90M SC$ per unit Market Price without Quality Effects 2.07M SC$ per unit Market Oversupply/Shortage -3,489,866 units Spending Space for this Month 580.00B SC$ This will buy 280,772 units Allow players to sell 1T consumer goods or 2T military goods monthly to the world markets. Atleast this way a decline or surplus would come @ a slower pace and allow people to adjust accordingly. I do agree with buying and sell goods but it needs to be done responsibly
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| Monday, February 13, 2012 - 04:50 am Maybe a revamping of how boycotts work is in order. Since space now is galaxy wide perhaps boycotts should be as well. For example. 1) Boycotts themselves changed to complete player country boycotts, meaning that only c3's can buy goods(FMU's as example) in which the UN votes "yes" to boycott. If a player country does want to break the boycott and buy the boycotted goods(FMU's) then they pay double the price or something(to equal black market prices). With the penalty cost going to a special UN fund or something.(just an idea and would take the gm's to make it happen) 2) If a UN resolution is passed to boycott a country's goods(specific type such as FMU's for example) maybe we should also include a "player's" goods boycott in which none of that player's specific goods(FMU's again as example) from any of their countries or enterprise can be bought. 3) A boycott of one country's goods could now span across space stations so that those goods produced on one planet can never enter the docks at all to stop them from getting to another. This would mean those goods would have to be tagged somehow. I don't know, maybe that could stop the dumping of goods to tank the market, but then again the process of an UN resolution takes a while to even do. The Gm's would have to be willing to help us out here as well to tweak the process. Tanking the market does occur and is a fact of life so maybe the best thing is to let it play itself out. Who knows, maybe even a penalty of 1/2 production for a game year or two can be imposed on said player's corps should he or she be found guilty, as per UN resolution, of tanking the market. Use that as a deterrent. Just throwing ideas out there for everyone to pick apart or add to. I'm tired, so perhaps i'm not thinking straight. Anywho,.. goodnight.
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| Monday, February 13, 2012 - 06:19 am Trading is not the problem here Lee and anyone else wondering. Restrictions are not necessary and discourage participation. Not to mention enforcing these restrictions on unruly players who are under no obligation to agree. The issue here is the method of selling the excess production. Flooding the market would be stupid as it would reduce the overall maximum price you could sell for. Controlled offers and timed product offers will allow for sales without killing market price or any players long time established corps. Slow money is better than no money. I can boost the FB price back to 3.5 million and we won't have a conversation. Sell as you wish but be mindful not to supersaturate the supply and we can all get paid handsomely. Why would you need to be impatient? Unless you are cashing out within 48 hours it is everyone's best interest to wait for the market to show where it needs to be subsidized while keeping maximum sale prices in place.
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| Monday, February 13, 2012 - 05:30 pm Agreed, NO more trade restrictions!! keep this a true open market, laissez-faire, or capitalist (choose the label you are most comfortable with) economy. I would rather deal with the vagaries of unresticted supply and demand than see any further controls put in place. The supply fairy already does enough (too much, IMO), and any more limits would wreck the game (again, IMO).
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| Monday, February 13, 2012 - 09:53 pm Hi Rick, cheers, it's good to be back. I appreciate your confidence in me. Your welcome, QueensBikini, I thought I'd buy a dock and I get an income anyway. Thanks for renting it. There seems to be broad agreement that the issue is to do with the selling. Unless a player has a deliberate intention to tank a market, then it is in everyone's interests to sell strategically. If fixed pricing worked the way it is supposed to, it could aid the process. I've raised that issue with the GMs who said they will be changing it. Responding to demand and price is key. When the price is right and the under-supply is there, it's a good time to meet the demand.
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| Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 08:48 pm There is a surplus of Factory Maintenance Units of over one million on Little Upsilon and the market price continues to fall causing economic damage to Little Upsilon.
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| Friday, February 17, 2012 - 05:00 am Clearly, fixing the market to your advantage is the 'old fashion way' :P now its just way easier to do. because it doesnt even hafta be those with the corps of the items on the market, just those with enough surplus in their position to skew it. ohhh noooooos not I WANT MY MUNNNY days...dark times lie ahead harry? is the only line I can think of in response to that. lol :P
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| Friday, February 17, 2012 - 04:21 pm yeah I'm losing money, I only see two players running shuttles with FMU. And I though we were friends... :s
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| Friday, February 17, 2012 - 04:32 pm I have stealth shuttles ;)
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| Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 08:51 pm rofl
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