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Friday, July 22, 2011 - 05:47 am  Maybe you remember seeing something in the news a few months ago talking about Governor Scott Walker's plan to recover the economy in Wisconsin by cutting funding to education, selling power plants in Wisconsin to corporations, and, most controversially, removing the rights of collective bargaining. You may not have heard about this for a while, but as a student who helped organize a walkout at my school, I want to know what others think.
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| Friday, July 22, 2011 - 06:59 pm What if they *gasp* disagree with your own opinions!!!
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| Friday, July 22, 2011 - 07:05 pm Slashing education a bad idea, but hey, most educational systems in this country don't work anyway. Power plants sold to private entities? Bet you the price of electricity will go up. Collective bargaining? One of the few, already horrifically tied up in laws, defenses people have against exploitation.
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| Friday, July 22, 2011 - 07:28 pm if they disagree border then I'll debate with them.
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| Friday, July 22, 2011 - 11:15 pm The only debate BC knows is mass debate :p
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| Saturday, July 23, 2011 - 12:23 am naughty crafty
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| Saturday, July 23, 2011 - 05:33 am Well, I can see that this thread has already been hijacked, so I guess I should just stop checking on it.
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| Saturday, July 23, 2011 - 11:08 pm There's probably not too many protesting school children from Winsconsin here is why you are not getting too much of a response Bill. Good luck with it in real life though.
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| Sunday, July 24, 2011 - 01:12 am The private college prep school I went to had its tuition cost less than half what Wisconsin public schools get per student. I'd wager it gave a better education as well. Slash away. There's little, if any, correlation between higher per student education spending and better education. Public sector employees don't need collective bargaining rights. This is why you have situations where the unions and the politicians receiving union support make ridiculous, impossible-to-pay-for deals that screw over taxpayers. Not all states require collective bargaining rights for public sector employees. Some states even outlaw it completely. If he's selling the power plants to private companies, he'll need to make sure to deregulate the distributors and open up the process of building new plants. Otherwise, there might be an electricity crisis like in California (00-01).
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Sunday, July 24, 2011 - 02:20 am
lol. When that happens, you are only paying a portion of your education cost with your tuition. The other portion comes from your Commie Pinko Government. Search for your school's financial annual report and see how much of their total costs is covered by tuitions. If they don't divulge theirs online, look for transfers at your local/state/federal/whatever budget.
That crisis was fabricated. Hello? That's what you get when you free a good that is public by nature. Can I get an amen from the classics?
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| Sunday, July 24, 2011 - 04:35 am I know that there aren't many Wisconsinites who play this game, but I wanted to see what other people thought. Actually, collective bargaining is important. Without it, the government can freely cut salaries, and increase the amount the employees have to pay more towards things like pensions, medical insurance, etc. They have less money to spend, and the local economies suffer. http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/03/10-6 "The utter disregard for the rule of law and daily revelations of hypocrisy are rapidly undermining Walker as his poll numbers continue to tank. After rejecting $800 million in transportation funds in order to kill a high-speed rail line that would have employed thousands, Walker is now begging for $150 million from the federal government for – that’s right – trains. After claiming that the state is broke, this week we discovered that Walker managed to spend $42,000 flying private jets around the state, and managed to scrape together the money to hire Randy Hopper’s girlfriend, giving her a 35% raise. After stating repeatedly that his union-busting bill had nothing to do with union busting, his Senate Majority Leader, Scott Fitzgerald, admitted this week that it was all about breaking the back of the unions. Wisconsinites are worried that the out-of-control Governor is sending the state off the rails." That's from commondreams.org, heres the link. http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/03/31-3
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| Sunday, July 24, 2011 - 04:45 am http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2011/03/14/columbia-woman-gets-involved-madison-protest/ Don't bother with the article, that one is shit. The picture is what I wanted to show you. The students in that picture are from Velma Hamilton Middle School, were I helped to organize a walkout. The teachers found out, and actually excused us from classes, as long as we had parental permission. I hadn't gotten there yet. Just wanted to show you.
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| Sunday, July 24, 2011 - 08:29 am I went to private school as well, and our tuition was also lower than the per pupil funding for the public schools in my area. However, my school (and most private schools) did not have to educate any one they did not want to educate. Behavior problems? Expelled immediately. Poor attendance/grades? Expelled. No parental involvement? Expelled. Special education services? Not accepted. Admission for all? Nope. Approved applications only. So sure, they could educate their hand-picked students at a lower cost than public schools who have to educate everyone. I'm not sure the comparison is valid though.
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| Sunday, July 24, 2011 - 08:36 am In contrast, in public schools, I have been bullied since third grade and have punched at least two people per year every year since fourth grade. The sad thing? Starting in the sixth grade, it was a series of verbal attacks over several months that drove me over the edge, except for grade 8. And the amazing thing? I get an in school suspension, and the pieces of shit just have to go to some thing with me and the counselor were they apologize. If they got suspensions, then the entire school would be out for a day. The only thing I ever did to deserve this was being the new kid. Fuck the public school system. Fuck society. Fuck everything. Even sadder is the fact that half of the kids in my English class take ten seconds to pronounce the word "diamond". And they pronounce it wrong. Again: fuck the public school system.
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| Sunday, July 24, 2011 - 12:22 pm Ahh, public schools.
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| Sunday, July 24, 2011 - 02:26 pm "Again: fuck the public school system." Sounds like a good idea. The governor should slash their spending and remove CBA rather than throwing more good money after bad. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a mass debate to get to.
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| Sunday, July 24, 2011 - 04:49 pm BBJBS Your anger seems well founded. Your desire for change through a walkout might have also been well founded. What were your goals in the walk out? How did you go about organizing? Would you say you were successful and if so what did you achieve? What will you do in the future to bring about change? As a community organizer myself, these are all questions that we ask and seek answers for. Unfortunately, most people don't see themsleves as game changers and sometimes even resort to violence (see Oslo). Being a leader involves developing relationships with those in power--teachers, parent groups, principals, pastors, education board members, etc. Schools need -0- tolerance for bullying and a pro-active program for developing respect of peers, teachers, etc. This takes a big commitment on your part but it can be done. Find allies, know what you're talking about and recognize that before you win a victory, you'll make mistakes. But learn from those mistakes and make changes in strategies. All of us operate out of a self interest motive. What is in the self interest of those in your school(and there are many voices) to bring about change? Find that and you'll be half way there. But it ain't easy.
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| Sunday, July 24, 2011 - 07:48 pm @ border: I believe that the actual reason that public schools suck so much is BECAUSE of low funding, due to the NCLB act, and now it's going to get even worse because they're going to have less money. @ Parsifal: Our goals in the walkout were to convince Scott Walker and the rest of the Republicans NOT to pass this bill. Of course, Republicans rarely listen to mass opinion, facts, or what's best for anybody besides themselves. Basically it was word-of-mouth, meet at the breezeway after first hour, walk until we join up with the kids from West (local high school), then walk to the capitol and walk around with signs for the next couple of hours. It was that day that the photo above was taken, coincidentally. Although I'm not sure how that really has anything to do with it.
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| Sunday, July 24, 2011 - 08:28 pm Dark secret of public education in the US funding, and I'm sure Wisconsin is just as bad as a former employer of mine, Tennessee. Most of the money is wasted. The contracts to get supplies are "lowest bid" which either means lowest quality, or the price of each supply magically goes up about 300% after the contract is cut. Sheer bureaucratic waste. Seriously, when you can't hire a secretary for a living wage, but it's okay to set up another contract to get 10 more "employees" who'll each make more than their "manager"? I can't even remember how much of my section's budget was siphoned off to do "studies" that no one could understand but me. They'd spend a few 10s of millions and come out with some horrific drivel that would boil down to what I had been saying, but it took them 2 years to get there. Took me 10 minutes of observation in most cases. Unnecessary levels in the chain of command. Need I say more? Sports. I'm quite sure the schools are in the same bandwagon as the public universities, where about 25-35% of their budget goes to keeping their sports teams active. The rest is probably going to waste and upper echelon salaries. And yeah, I'm a little disjointed, haven't had my quota of coffee.
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| Sunday, July 24, 2011 - 10:00 pm Most of the students in Texas schools are minorities and yet it is whites that fought to keep funding. Minorities and young people just don't vote like we gray hairs do. And gray hairs have gotten their kids out of school and are less interested in raising taxes. But parents have got to support their schools and insist that their children adhere to some basic rules of respect for each other and for teachers. Testing is also a joke since billions are spent on tests that don't really show progress but only whether a kid can bubble between the lines. In Houston about half of all students drop out of school before graduation and of those that graduate 70% will have to take remedial courses in college before they can get into college classes. And why do we take off during summer and let out of school at 3pm? If we want to be competitive in world markets as well as have a pop that has a good standard of living we have to have a well educated pop. As far as athletics are concerned,in many cases they are what give schools a sense of togetherness. But again in many Houston schools, because of the requirement to make grades to participate in extra-cirric activities many sports teams barely have enough people to field a team. So, parent participation, being willing to vote for what you want, demanding that our children adhere to basic respectful attitudes, change the testing regiman, and make the school longer will make the system better. And oh yes, guys like me need to mentor young men who do not have a man in the house. It's very difficult for women to be both father and mother to young males. And if you're a male and hot for some sweety, remember what my old coach used to tell us, "if you can't use a rubber, keep your peter in your pants". also, if you father a child be a father, not some drone hoovering around the females for honey. Where there are engaged parents who support teachers, administrations, and their own children you don't have the problems we have mentioned. Minority kids are as smart as white kids. They've got to see that by not becoming education they will end up living a dismal existence. As you can see it's a complex problem, but one that if we all realize that education is the most important thing in our society and that our success as individuals and as a nation is directly related to educational success, we can turn things around. BBJBS-- Keep your interest in politics and organizing. But at the same time get as much education as you can to be an effective advocate for change. And if your parent/s don't seem to care one way or another about you being educated, then you have to be your own parent and more smart choices. It's not enough to just say that the system is "fucked up".
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| Sunday, July 24, 2011 - 11:28 pm Actually, my parents DO care about my brother and I's education, very much so. The problem is, the government doesn't generally give a shit about education. You want proof? The No Child Left Behind Act, passed by George W. Bush. This act cuts funding to schools with lower scores on standardized testing, which actually makes NO FUCKING SENSE. The schools with lower scores are the ones who obviously need more funding and yet the federal government cuts it. Obama's race to the top seems similar. http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/03/30-12 http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/07/25-4 The government doesn't give a shit about education and by extension, the youth of America, our future, and the future of the country as a whole. Kids would do a much better job of running things. If the politicians had to live in the hellhole future that they're abandoning my generation to, they might do something differently.
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| Monday, July 25, 2011 - 12:53 am Man, quit your dramatic bullshit. Education is no worse off today than it's ever been in the US. But ZOMG America is going to die because Bush/Obama/states didn't/aren't wasting more money on education in the middle of a recession and multiple wars!!!!! Got an idea. Go get a credit card or two, start buying everything you want to make your own perfect little world, and wait a couple months to learn an important lesson about spending and debt. Or go read up on Greece, Portugal, and Italy.
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| Monday, July 25, 2011 - 03:52 am The idea that giving more money to failing schools would make the schools successful is not founded in fact. The above examples of private schools that take in less money per student than public schools, and yet perform better proves that. As has been said several times in this discussion, performance in school has many factors, and only a few of them are things that the school itself can change. Community support, parental involvement, and a child's willingness to be educated are all important factors in the success of a school. The per pupil funding does not affect these. I realize it probably sounds like I am not supportive of your efforts, but I am. I'm good old fashioned FDR liberal. (Trust me, I have had more than one infuriating discussion with an R.) But we can't keep throwing more money at the problem, doing the same thing year after year, and expecting different results. I believe one of the biggest societal challenges we face in the coming decades is teaching the next generations that education is a valuable asset because so many of their parents never learned that.
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| Monday, July 25, 2011 - 04:13 am OK, so now education, which is necessary for a healthy economy by creating more high-paying jobs, is now a waste. Let's not forget that the recession is caused by lowered taxes to millionares and billionares and corporate handouts, in addition to said wars. Iraq and Afghanistan are being fought because one has lots of oil and the other is an important crossroads in Afghanistan. Afghanistan has historically been an important trade route. Any questions? And Zen, I agree with you on some points, but some textbooks at my school saw the first Reagan election.
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| Monday, July 25, 2011 - 03:04 pm if taxes are too low then get parents and other voters in your school district to raise taxes. i agree with others on this thread that just throwing money at the problem is not enough. if parents in your district would get behind stricter behavior rules and older tax payers would get involved in volunteering the district would get better. NCLB is not andwill not be the answer. We've all got to pitch in to change the system.
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| Monday, July 25, 2011 - 06:36 pm Education does not create high-paying jobs (except for most professors and politicians that use it to get elected), but gives an individual a competitive edge to work for the man, in most circumstances. An equal opportunity for a good edcuation is more important. The government can make laws to make education available to all, but can't guarantee the quality or efficacy of educational institutions. Equally, an MBA won't guarantee a job at all. The wars don't have anything to do with education, except that they strap a budget and force a government to prioritize. Until they are over and/or we have a sustainable economy, there should be priorities, and education isn't as high on the list. You don't need the government, its (our) money, or a school to educate yourself.
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Monday, July 25, 2011 - 07:27 pm
You're arrogant, profane, close-minded, barely literate, dogmatic, and violent. All indications are that you're the bully.
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| Monday, July 25, 2011 - 09:17 pm @pars: it's not necessarily taxes. Even if you have ridiculously high taxes, that's no guarantee that the government will actually spend the money on anything useful. Probably just give it to corporations while cutting THEIR taxes. *cough cough AIG cough* @border: what I meant was it ALLOWS people to at least look for high paying jobs. And the government WON'T make laws to allow education for all, because ignorance allows them to manipulate the voters easier. I know the wars don't have anything to do with education. I didn't say that the did, I was responding to someone else's comment. And you don't need public education to get educated, but it's better than not have anybody teach you. @jojo: I mind my own business, respond with profanity when pissed, am willing to listen to other people's arguments, read at a high college level, accept something as true when it's backed up by irrefutable proof, and am violent when pushed hard and for a long time. You insulted me for no discernible reason on a political debate thread. I think that that makes you much more of a bully than I ever was.
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| Monday, July 25, 2011 - 10:32 pm I'm still learning. At the school of hard knocks. The UK went the route of making education more available with equal tuition fees for all (at uni level) subsidised by other countries for foreign students and the state for nationals. To facilitate meeting the demand (the non-exclusivity) it was decided to give many colleges university status and require established universities to accept a higher percentage of less privilidged students. The result - the real value of a degree or masters has been eliminated. My opinion? You get what you pay for. And before I get slated that doesnt mean only rich people get good educations, you have sponsorships of many sorts. I dont believe in this pinko thinking of the state giving everything equally to all, makes people lazy if they expect things to be provided.
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| Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 01:45 am The people get lazy, they don't get a job. And if they do get a job, then they get fired. But everybody deserves an equal chance. At times, I'm ashamed to call myself American. We have terrible health care and education, the rich control the government, press, and media in general, we have some of the worst gun laws in the world, we have a ridiculously high crime rate, an insane national debt, terrible fiscal and foreign policy, and all the while the rich keep getting tax breaks. This country is very obviously fucked up.
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| Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 02:00 am BBJBS: We certainly have problems in this country (and you name some good ones), but it is only from the privileged position afforded to the citizens in this country that you can call our health care, our education, our media, our government, our guns laws, our national debt, and our fiscal and foreign policies "fucked up." In the US, a person who tests HIV + has life expectancy measured in decades; in Africa, it is measured in months. The leading cause of death for women age 15-21 in Africa is child birth. That is not on the list in this country. People from all over the world come here for our education. Our free media is the envy of all oppressed people. Ask a dissident in China what they would give to freely express themselves on a forum like this one. When our military is armed with children who have not hit their teens, then we can decide how bad our gun laws are. The "debt crisis" is more a conservative constructed problem than a true crisis. Greece has a debt crisis. While we may not like some of the policies of our government, at least we have one that attempts to represent us. Sure, my Congressman is not the person I want there and I disagree with almost every vote he takes, but the majority of people who live in my community chose him. It is what it is. If I want a Congressman who thinks like me, maybe I need to move to San Fran so Pelosi will be mine. Yes we have problems. Some of them big problems. But don't let those problems blind you to the problems of the world who were not lucky enough to be born here.
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| Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 02:15 am fabricated debt crisis. go to the following link. http://www.usdebtclock.org/ I timed how long it took for the debt to increase by one hundred thousand dollars. It took an average of two and a half seconds. The national debt increased by double my parents' combined salaries in two and a half seconds. You say that that's not serious? I agree, things could be far, far worse. But they could be much better. You want proof? Look at Canada. Free health care available to everyone, an incredibly strict gun law (I was recently in Canada on vacation, park rangers had no guns, whereas in the U.S. each ranger truck had a shotgun and an M16), and much, MUCH lower crime rates. This tell you anything? Like, maybe, the system is fucked up and designed to represent only the rich?
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| Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 02:53 am Move to Canada.
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| Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 02:55 am /me luvs Canada.
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| Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 03:40 am @Billy Bob: ...and play the victim like a natural. Just pointing out my observations, and calling you out on hypocrisy. Now please don't punch me.
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| Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 03:51 am Jojo! Why so grumpy? You're Canadian! You get free healthcare, no crime, and everything a naive little highschooler could ever want!
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| Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 04:35 am Well, my thread originally started to get an opinion has turned into a free-for-all insult BBJBS-fest. So long, fuck-faces!
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| Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 05:55 am People get so mad when you derail their threads.
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| Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 06:12 am BBJBS--I didn't want to attack or insult you. I agree with many of your principles. I just think despite our short-comings, we are incredibly blessed to be born in this country, and billions upon billions around the world would change places with us any day. Canada is a nice place that is hardly representative of most of the world. I agree though that do many things better than we do. As far as the debt crisis, I still say it is a fabrication by Republicans, designed to force Democrats into cutting programs we have cherished since FDR. Our debt problems should be measured in decades not seconds, and solving the fiscal problems we face should not be balanced on the backs of seniors and the poor or middle class. I think you actually agree with that from reading your posts. (And notice I didn't mention your comments about the system working for the rich.)
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| Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 03:54 pm ZentrinoRisen, dun hold back. Attack BBJBS, he likes it :-)
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Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 04:08 pm
It's obvious. So discourses like these only piss me off.
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| Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 07:08 pm So who would you say is fabricating Portugal's "debt crisis"?
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| Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 07:19 pm sardine fishermen?
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| Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 07:50 pm There's no link to Europe's issue, but the two linger on due to ideological and political straight-jackets. But I would answer your question with people who slept through life the past ten years and woke up because of the american-brought financial crisis. : )
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| Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - 08:35 pm Crisis? what crisis? Do shut up the lot of you. Learn to adapt and survive, jeez.
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| Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - 01:24 am Oh, so you Europeans get to have crises but we New Worlders only get boring recessions??? Typical European arrogance! Our debt crisis will be beat up your debt crisis any day!
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| Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - 02:25 am Ahh my eyes! my eyes! Laguna, you should post a warning on a link like that!
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| Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - 09:50 am Now NASA has stopped letting off billion dollar fireworks, you americans should be fine. I hear McD's are hiring, BC, gonna need a job somewhere, ;) You want to compare the european price of energy to Americas? Your current generations have no idea what austerity is...(generalisation I know). Heh, you could pay off your debt in no time at all if you would accept a small increase in tax for a short while (so say some economists here). Crafty'hungry, cold & broke'Cockney.
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| Thursday, July 28, 2011 - 05:04 am I hate modern politics. It's all about money and power. No one does anything for the people anymore. Never did, really. Imagine if kids ruled the world. The politicians are going to be dead in the future, so they just think about how to get money. Kids have to live in said future, so we would actually do something about saving it. Hopefully. We'd at least THINK about it. And probably do more than the politicians.
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| Thursday, July 28, 2011 - 12:06 pm Nice Utopian dream BBJB. And I mean that sincerely.
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| Thursday, July 28, 2011 - 08:12 pm I have to decide if I think you're actually being sincere or not.
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| Thursday, July 28, 2011 - 11:48 pm If you really have to think about that bubble-bob, that says enough.
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| Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 12:49 am As an outsider looking in, I must say that the US is in bad shape right now. I think the thing which is dragging you guys down is effeciency. Here in Australia, we have a democratic system, but after a good three months of debating an issue (lets say a carbon tax of some sort!) the bill is either passed or vetoed. Then the implimentation of these policies/infastructure works is done quickly so that no time is lost (for those interested in witnessing one of the largest infastructure projects in human history, google National Broadband Network.). Again, America's problem is that everyone is so self-important (no offence-most of you guys are nice people) that they believe that its either their way or the no way. Trying to pass a bill to raise the debt ceiling shouldn't take months, nor should there be so much debate over the little details. In the end, if this bill isnt passed, we all lose. Have any politicians thought about what might happen to nations reliant on the USA (eg. Australia/Canada/Mexico/New Zealand/EU) if the debt ceiling isn't raised? Australia has a high standard of living- according to the UN, which places us 2nd after Norway. Our effeciency is the reason we have done so well. The US, while it still has a long way to go, is drowning in a sea of squabbling and selfishness and ineffeciency. There shouldn't be debate over whether high-speed trains should be built. If its good enough, just build it. Yet the GOP and DEMOs are too busy playing "Not Good Enough/That's Stupid/It will Never Work/He never Gave us a chance to Have Our Opinion" that nothing happens. I might only be preaching to 20 people but if you have any sense, you would seriously take a good look at Washington and say enough is enough. I remember finding out 4 years ago that in the US constitution there is a certain law allowing for the people of the United States to rebel against a government which is screwing their people. If someone tries to stop you, call it unconstitutional. Thats my two cents. (No offense to anyone from the USA- I just feel so damn annoyed at this debt ceiling/education/health reform squabble)
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| Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 04:01 am To be honest, I think that our system is majorly fucked up. Personal agendas designed to get more money and more power are all the politicians care about. We give tax breaks to the rich and handouts to the corporations (cough cough AIG cough Halliburton cough), and because of that we don't have enough money for anything that we need. I believe that the U.S. is being burned to the ground by the politicians and the corporations and the rich. We should take them out of power, get a halfway decent government, were we can still choose who we want in power but they can only use a certain amount of money on advertising or something like that, make elections more balanced.
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| Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 04:18 am Bush tax cuts = 3.7T over 10 years. Moody's estimation of what US needs to cut = 4T over 10 years. Why is this so hard?
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| Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 05:20 am Because we're dealing with politicans here. They all have their own agendas, rather than doing whats best for their country. Happens here too.
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| Monday, August 1, 2011 - 05:46 pm Gollum and Smeagol on the debt deal.
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| Monday, August 1, 2011 - 07:10 pm That was an... interesting link.
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