| Kitsuné | Sunday, March 20, 2011 - 04:50 am 
When a player starts the game, the default is for countries to order goods at "any quality" and their corporations to order supplies at "any quality."
Why is this so? "Any quality" is horrible. Between the automated hospital/school/road building functions, and the fact that these countries can be ordering goods at up to 3 times base cost for no benefit.
Furthermore, since new corporations order supplies at "any quality" they will overpay for materials and produce very little profit.
Because of these, new players are *destined* to bankrupt and fail. The only way to keep from failing is to come on to the forums or into chat and find out what to do.
HOWEVER, new players are barred from the forums for I believe 48 hours. Even after that, the fact of the matter is that this outdated forum style that lacks both stickies and a search function makes it hard to find good information.
Chat is an option, but you never know who or what you might find in there, if there's anyone there at all...
So anyway, the bottom line is that a lot of new players get overwhelmed, fail, and quit. Look at all of the new topics started by new players wondering why their economies are going into the toilet. I looked at one of these players' countries and saw it had education index of 120 and employment of 95%. A country like that shouldn't be coming apart at the seams, but it is because of the damned bad settings that new players don't even realize they need to change.
So, CHANGE THE DEFAULTS. Make countries and corporations order supplies at 100 quality BY DEFAULT. Make corporations buy quality upgrades BY DEFAULT. Or even better yet, get rid of the quality system completely. It has never made any sense at all. |
| SuperSoldierRCP | Sunday, March 20, 2011 - 04:59 am
I AGREE
Buy any Q goods?
How about the game auto starting them with more states then they need.
The amount of pop they start with WORTHLESS!!!
So they find a teacher or someone to help them.
They run out of workers just by making schools and hospitals.
Plus they still got to pay for building there transportation. |
| Psycho_Honey (Little Upsilon) | Sunday, March 20, 2011 - 05:12 am
Signed.
Very good points Kitsune. |
| NiAi (Little Upsilon) | Sunday, March 20, 2011 - 09:08 am
I concur.
Lets make it easier for new players to get a nice feeling of the game, instead of (in lack of other players help) making em ruined their economy.
Also, peacefull setting (for game levels) ought be standard (and the one in force when a player start), since a early military buildup will in most cases destory the player. |
| hymy1 (Kebir Blue) | Sunday, March 20, 2011 - 09:21 pm
It's a game, what'd be the point if the GM plays the game for them? |
| Linebacker Six | Sunday, March 20, 2011 - 10:43 pm
Learning curves, hymy.
Most new register countries are a disaster, coupled with the fact they are on a default self-destruct setting.
Experienced players can straighten them out pretty quickly, but a new player has to separate out the 10% of real information from the 90% of irelevant fluff W3C throws at them, just to halt the damage.
All this without access to the forums for 48 hours and practically useless docs.
It's a wonder any new players stick around.
Better to hand them a functioning country with some extra pop and cash to play with than the current system.
I seriously doubt that half the new registers ever log in a second time. |
| Synicus (White Giant) | Monday, March 21, 2011 - 01:10 am
I think they should be set up to fail to prevent minimum active accounts, give the player imediate goals and a sence of accomplishment.
There is a balance between too many noobs and the learning curve.
I agree that it's currenty extream. They should start off with a better health index and lower military spending limits (except FB).
Corperate health needs guidance thru game documentation rather than the forum.
Maybe make it more clear to noobs that a secured mode country that can't be attacked doesn't need 4T in defense.  |
| SuperSoldierRCP (Little Upsilon) | Monday, March 21, 2011 - 01:21 am
I agree Synicus
i told chiwoo and some others in the chat. The GM should put a block on New players for 1real week on buying weapons. Atleast then they have to come to the chat ask for help and they are bound to find someone. Also if a new player takes a single loan (no matter the amount) all weapons are locked. I know its harsh but 9 out of 10 failures i see from new players are because they spend more on military then basic econ |
| Lorelei (Fearless Blue) | Monday, March 21, 2011 - 03:40 am
The trouble I am having as a new player is my country ordering automatically supplies for my corporations. I have daily shortages and having to do everything manually. I have upgraded manually, I believe I have my settings in a good place, at least according to the veteran players in this game that I have spoken to. Why is this??? |
| Synicus (White Giant) | Monday, March 21, 2011 - 09:08 am
Quality of requestested supplies is too high and or your time based buy strategy is too high/too long.
edit to add: automation features, uncheck beginners and general economic protection. This feature locks you out when on, you can make updates till your fingers bleed and nothing will change. |
| Tom Willard (White Giant) | Monday, March 21, 2011 - 10:51 pm
True.
It is an oversight. It should be set correctly.
These countries receive financial help at the start and their economies and corporations make a profit, nobody commented on this before.
I will make sure it is corrected ASAP.
This is mainly true for what the country is buying.
For corporations it is not as bad as it sounds. If they use high quality raw materials, their output has a much higher quality.
We did improve the profitability of quality 100 corporations, many in new players countries. We will check some examples to decide on the quality of raw materials for corporations in such countries. |
| SuperSoldierRCP (Little Upsilon) | Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 03:14 am
another bit of players fail due to loans i just say 6more 8T loans lots of neg cash.
I say ban them from warring this noob made a country TODAY started a war TODAY.
Cant the GM do something No weapons purchases when they getting booster income or neg cash flow? Make them Learn and maybe get a few new payin members |
| Josias (White Giant) | Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 04:58 am
allot of players come here wanting to war, and quit because they can't. perhaps, forcing players to play econ only for, how long? isn't the way to go.
i get the concept that players are quiting because they can't make their econ work. but don't cut off your nose, to spite your face, as the saying goes.
rather, their should be a clear guide that pops up every time they long into their account page. with several tabs. perhaps one for country basics, corp management, and c3 warring. That should clearly point out the need to take out air defense first. shrug, as a thought.
the air defense of C3s is not to strong, but most newbs fail their first attempt because they either don't know, or under estimate the air d strength.
a L1 c3 has what, 2 i wings, and 1 h wing. it wont actually cost much to take it over. and if we actually teach players how to use the war engine, they might be more interested if they have 2 countries to manage. and they wont build up 5 50m countries, and be to scared to war... which is much of whats holding the war game back now.
how ever, the initial theme of this thread, change the default settings for new players, excellent idea!!! |
| SuperSoldierRCP | Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 05:19 am
i agree Josias
I'm in NO way saying ban them from the war game but 9out10 new players with massive debt is cuz they tried to war to early. At least give them a time frame of a 1real week where you cant buy weapons/ammo. By then they should have read the docs, found a teacher, and starting making an econ.
The most common Questions im asked in the Chat
How do i buy weapons
Anyone wanna join my CM or Fed
-------AND--------
Will you sell me nukes? |
| Josias (White Giant) | Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 06:35 am
well, follow the thought process for a second. you sign up for a game, and now you have to take lessons for a week, before you can even start to buy weapons to shoot with? that'll turn off many people.
i do get what your saying, but i think that we should go the other way. if a player is interested in the war game. (and many, new players are,) then the basics should be dished up and served to them asap. giving them the basic info that will make them successful early, will mean that they will have more countries. and of course more interest.
no, back in the day i remember that new players got like 4T to start with? i'm not sure if they get that any more, but they should. Additionally, new players that are trying to raid C3s should receive SC money, to give them the ability to DO SOMETHING, with out terrible debt, at least at first. some worlds are open to this, others are not. i'm not sure why we can't give lump cash payments to new players. to grease the wheels, so to speak. |
| Synicus (White Giant) | Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 09:08 am
I agree,
Defensive force index requirements are also misleading. They should encourage the purchase of a basic offense to help the player win their first war.
Cash does't help in most cases and raiding a C3 can win ya a war level wich basicly ='s a game level that full members recieve coin awards for. |
| Accordion_This (Little Upsilon) | Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 10:17 am
The first time I ever came to SC, I dreamed of world domination. The only thing that stopped me becoming another quitter was that I read John Fire's Church docs about a week in and fixed myself up in time to save myself from debt.
Personally, I think there is far too much emphasis on introducing "cool new stuff" like space centres (which are really quite lame, sorry W3C) and neglecting the fundamentals of the game, like tutorials; easy to understand, up-to-date game documentation; and a smoother start-up and learning curve for newbs.
I've seen a lot come and go. Those weird "Tip" buttons, those tutorial videos, Game Levels, rewards for logging in... and in all that time, Game Levels and rewards for logging in have been the only decent things introduced to the game. Why? Because a newb likes rewards.
So here's the solution:
1) Make a goddamn tutorial. A newb should be able to understand the basics of the game by the end of his first week. This tutorial should be voluntary, and if you elect to do it, it should railroad you through your first week, teaching you how to play. That is to say, it should guide you like a step-by-step guide. I'm thinking:
a) Welcome to Simcountry!
b) Looks like your country's in poor shape. Let's invest in some infrastructure to make life easier for your citizens! (tutorial in building transport, education, health).
c) Blah blah blah (economic tutorial - social security, welfare, salaries, setting up corps).
d) Yay! Time to take a country! (fighting a C3).
END TUTORIAL
2) Give players the resources they need to start the game. I'm talking enough money that they could seriously screw up and still be able to recover by spending their money wisely - maybe $5T. Give them a small defence force - an interceptor wing, a helicopter wing, a division of defensive ground troops.
3) Fix the game documentation. There are so many typos and errors in there that Grammar Hitler wants to exterminate this game. In all seriousness, Tom Willard/Jozi/W3C, if you gave me free membership for a year, I'd be happy to go through every single game doc and edit it so that it has flawless grammar and is easier to understand. That's $36 or so for problem solved. Think about it ;)
4) Unlock forums for new players.
5) Encourage new players to join federations. During the tutorial, show the players exactly where to find the forums and where to find a federation. Show them how to join a fed and why they should.
I know it's a lot, but with a few small updates, you could do it. And I almost guarantee your membership regos would go up by 150-200%. If you implement solutions like these, you will keep most of the players that you've been losing due to boredom or misunderstanding of the game.
What do all you other players think of these ideas? |
| Psycho_Honey (Little Upsilon) | Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 05:06 pm
I think you're the n00b.
None of these ideas are original and were offered before you ever made a return to the game.
There are tutorial videos, they could be improved on a LOT, but they are there. I doubt <5% of new players ever click on them even though they are presented on the portal page before you ever log into your country. And, I really like that lady's voice. Sounds exotic.
You aren't the 20th person to offer to correct the docs for free membership. Quit crabbing and pay your regs like everyone else.
Tom has already partially updated the docs and more are coming. This was just discussed again by the 1920 other players before you who had a brain and asked for updates. Check for the thread.
The forum IS NOT locked for new players.
They are locked from POSTING. Yes, there IS a difference, you don't even have to play simcountry at all to access any page of this forum. This is to encourage them to read and try to find information before spamming the boards with questions that have been asked and answered hundreds of times repeatedly by each and every new player. In the last few weeks we see threads from a different new player on every single forum asking for economic help, instead of reading the threads where others have asked for help, they post again the same question that was answered the previous day in 5 different threads. Redundant. This is exactly why no one bothers to waste time typing it over and over again, this leads to new players feeling like no one gives a crap, and they eventually leave unless someone speaks up.
You, and the IDC are very good examples of why new players SHOULD NOT rush to join a federation. In theory it seems right for new players to join a fed, but the opposite is true. The politics and interplay between experienced players and new players being caught up in that, have devastating consequence. Not to single this situation out, but the recent raid of WG most successful long standing federation is a good example of this. Many players of that fed quit right afterward, because they were peaceful merchants. Had they stayed to themselves, they might still be here as they wouldn't have been targeted.
More importantly, the information that successful players attain should not be held hostage to a player joining your federation as a pre-requisite to a successful player sharing such information. It is not any player's responsibility to teach any player, but selfishly holding onto that information in order to advance your own ambitions in exchange for that is very selfish. W3C could go a long way to make sure that the information, is no longer SECRET and available to all players.
This is especially true in the war game. Where the difference of knowing a single quirk in the war engine can have every effect on that outcome of a war. This is why we see such lopsided battles that discourage most players from playing war.
Finally, your figures are screwy, you have no idea how many players will or won't stay based on hypothetical changes(many of which have already changed or are in the process of implementation). Those precise figures you gave are based on nothing but delusional assumptions.
That, is what I know. Thinking comes from not knowing. GOT PICs!? |
| SuperSoldierRCP (Little Upsilon) | Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 06:12 pm
Ive talked to people in the chat and i think there should be a test. A few simple pages something given players to help them and then a 10question test score a set % before they get there country *answers randomized so we don't have them picking answers at random* Simple Questions like.......
Secure mode countries need a Military
True/ False...Answer: False
Secure mode countries cant ever be attack so a military is not required
You could answer the basics
Secure mode
Nukes
Space
ect...
What you guys think |
| Synicus (White Giant) | Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 06:38 pm
Uh,
1 and 3 sound good.
2, not so much.
4, what the Psycho ranted.
5, how is not an issue and why should they?
For a loyal player joining a Fed out of the gate is a mistake. Ya likely end up in a Fed full of new players and are no better off.
Accordion this, your wording is somewhat pretentious, ie 'So here's the solution:' ;)
Edit to add:
A test is an interesting idea, I think the timing might be bad though. Not many people want to learn so much, before playing. Maybe ask a test question to get your log in reward or something might be better? |
| Tom Willard (Golden Rainbow) | Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 06:46 pm
Thanks for all these suggestions. we take them into account.
On beginners docs:
there is today much more than we had in the past and I agree than many just don't read and don't look into any of the videos.
There are many who ask by mail about options that are in the menu with the exact name of the function they look for. They just don't look into the menus.
We have just updated the beginners manual. please have a look.
There is a lot to improve and I would really love to see a better one.
Accordion This, if you are confident you can make one, contact the gamemaster.
On the documentation in general
we have already updated some docs and working on others. more will be added with the coming upgrades.
also here, we do need much more.
Cash for beginners
We give them cash presents when they log in and population too. I think it amounts to several Ts in the first month.
they also have 15 gold coins and more when they log in, probably more than 20, good for 5T+ in cash on the direct market.
we have just added a feature that will help beginners with high debt. this is temporary and will be replaced by an increase in the cash presents in the initial period.
I think that beginners should be able to try the war game, and not get into a huge debt.
you can't tell them to wait a month. they will quit. They have to be successful and see growth.
this is why we also made starting corporations more profitable and continue to check and improve profitability of corporations. smaller numbers of corporations but profitable. |
| Josias (White Giant) | Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 10:01 pm
Thanks Tom, you have been all over the forum recently, very cool!!
This is the kinda thing i mean. about getting newbs the right info
*****
From: XXX
To: scary beyond all reason
Real Date: 22-03-2011 21:54:41
World Date: January 15 2802
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: full member
Message: oh that's why I am losing all my bombers..I thought that if a town is not defended I should just attack it directly and not attack the defense
From: XXX
To: Level UP
Real Date: 22-03-2011 01:47:58
World Date: November 03 2801
Subject: Re: Re: Money p2
Message: Ok thanks, by the way I failed in my attack on the huge offensive.... At the time I didnt realize how important air superiority is but no I have pulled my troops back and amassed a massive airforce and will try again but closer to home. Thanks so much for the help!
*****
these guys are newbs trying to learn how to fight C3s, i've been PMing them, and one recently upgraded to full membership. They are trying, and doing well, over all. But somethings weren't made clear to them. Shrug... |
| Tom Willard (Golden Rainbow) | Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 11:54 pm
Thanks for doing so.
this is what we hoped will happen on the beginners forum.
hand holding is essential in the first weeks. |
| swann_88 (Golden Rainbow) | Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 05:52 pm
the one change that I think should be made for beginners
(recent game changes with war level etc may have changed this)
your first war against a c3 requires you to do less damage overall to win the war
however because new people don't know about air defense etc they often lose that war
so now you lost your first war and the next one is much more difficult so you lose again
ideally the damage requirement should only be increased after you win your first war |
| Tom Willard | Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 11:13 pm
sounds good.
I will check what it takes technically to do so. |
| Androsynth (Little Upsilon) | Sunday, March 27, 2011 - 02:04 pm
I'm gonna go ahead and bump the topic of 'Any Quality' purchases being the norm. I know there won't be the political will among the vets to change this. For every veteran whose strategy is to max quality on all their corps, there's a newbie paying the increased price with no benefit. It's a tax on the new, for the benefit of the old.
The quality system doesn't even make any sense to begin with. Where is the value coming from, other than the fact that the newbies and the AI are forced to pay extra? My population is eating high quality chocolate right now and paying 4x the price, but what is the net benefit to them? Or to my country as a whole? There is none. All things being equal, the lowest price is the best one. If you folks went into Walmart and looked at two *identical* products, and one cost $1 and the other was $4, which would you buy? Half the world's countries are buying the $4 chocolate. That's the level of absurdity we're dealing with here, and it's probably due in large part to what Kitsune is pointing out: that newbies are set up to buy this crap by default.
I will be shot down or ignored, of course. Free markets are scary beasts, and nobody in this forum knows how to stay on top of a game that doesn't automatically reward people who managed to click "Auto upgrade quality" with a second click to stop ordering FMUs at $12 million a pop.
The real fix is a return to the free market, as enumerated in my Suggestions post. There should be more material profit generated by the system overall, so it wouldn't have to be an us-or-them mentality on the economy. The commodity relationships could be tuned to make the overall challenge easier, and then we wouldn't have to depend on selling overpriced (but worthless) crap to newbies in order to survive financially. Economic strategy should mean diversification of investments and securing supplies of critical materials for oneself. An elimination of the GM market manipulation would mean it wouldn't always be the same five or six commodities that serve as the cash cows - the economic picture could *gasp* ... change on its own! And quality upgrades shouldn't be such a "no-brainer" until such time as high quality products have a purpose that actually makes people want them. A purpose above and beyond "making the next high quality item and selling it to the next guy, until ultimately a noob buys it unwittingly".
But I digress. Until the developers make me an honorary member of their team, and allow me to help with macroeconomic calculations & the program tweaking that ought to follow, the economic sim will be broken and the winning strategies will be counterintuitive and lacking in variety. Not really my problem - I'm just a $12 member. Anyway, sorry for the rant. |
| Psycho_Honey (Little Upsilon) | Sunday, March 27, 2011 - 04:46 pm
Go to the dollar store and grab any $1 generic chocolate bar. Then go to Hershey Park in Pennsylvania the difference in quality is from earth to the 12th planet. |
| Androsynth (Little Upsilon) | Sunday, March 27, 2011 - 05:59 pm
That's real life. There's a realizable difference in real life. No gameplay mechanism has been built into simcountry to make quality meaningful.
Where's the difference in the two products in-game? One has a higher meaningless number. My people aren't happier after eating the high quality chocolate bar, are they? They aren't more productive. They aren't wealthier. There's no effect. No effect means that we're talking about substantially identical products. |
| Psycho_Honey (Golden Rainbow) | Sunday, March 27, 2011 - 06:09 pm
Well I can give you a few examples of the value of quality.
100 quality weapons vs. 250 quality weapons.
100 quality supplies vs. 190 quality supplies.
100 quality nuclear defense vs 250 quality nuclear defense.
The incentives are there. Ultimately the choice to make use of them is yours.
And to answer your question, yes people are happier after eating that high quality Chocolate Bar. High Quality Chocolate gets eaten. Consumers go back for more. More Sales = More profit = Branding. This is Name Brand vs. Generic. The success or failure in each case or product is based upon quality. |
| Psycho_Honey (Golden Rainbow) | Sunday, March 27, 2011 - 06:16 pm
Also, I agree 'Any Quality' shouldn't be the default for automation. Without a doubt it shouldn't be the default no argument there. But this doesn't diminish the importance in quality in the game. |
| Androsynth (Little Upsilon) | Sunday, March 27, 2011 - 06:33 pm
Are you saying that 250 quality weapons are 2.5x as effective as 100 quality weapons? That's pretty significant if it's true. I can't find this in the documentation anywhere, and I haven't fought any wars yet. Is it true? I'd love to find out that it is. And that high quality hospitals serve more patients, high quality roads require less maintenance, high quality schools fit more students, and so on. Is any of this going on, or is quality just a pipe dream?
And sure, you can make the argument that consumers "enjoy" a higher quality more and so they choose the higher quality number. But SimCountry has nothing resembling the concept of branding, brand loyalty, or even a value to represent consumer satisfaction. There's still literally no reason why a president should ever allow consumers to buy the higher quality, higher priced item. Presidents who do allow cash to flow out of the country for benefits that are in no way quantified or recorded, shall heretofore be considered "suckers." Newbies and the AI are just being auto-suckered. |
| Blueserpent (Fearless Blue) | Sunday, March 27, 2011 - 06:35 pm
1. The Quality of Military Units [ top ]
The maximum quality of weapons and ammunition in military units is increased to 250. Also the maximum fighting level is increased to 250.
This increases the quality range and allows for the creation of high quality units. The maximum quality will be increased even further in the future
Game news, have a read. |
| Androsynth (Little Upsilon) | Sunday, March 27, 2011 - 06:57 pm
Game news you say.. okay, lots of stuff in there that I hadn't found anywhere else - thank you. I've never seen the below mentioned "quality index", does anyone know where to find it? The news was published a few years ago.
174. The Quality Index [ top ]
A new index will be added to simcountry, measuring the quality of products the country is purchasing for use by the population. The average will be weighted, with products that are being used in larger quantities, having more influence on the average than ones that are used in very small quantities. The index will depend on consumption products only and will not include weapons and ammunition. The index will be used as a component in the total score of the country and it will be used as a component in the country welfare index. |
| Crafty (Golden Rainbow) | Sunday, March 27, 2011 - 07:33 pm
Another 'work in progress'.
Things don't happen very quickly around here. Another attraction of the game if you ask me, I'm not into instant gratification... well... maybe in some circumstances :P |
| Androsynth (Little Upsilon) | Sunday, March 27, 2011 - 07:51 pm
Funny that you should mention instant gratification. I just established "Mistress Jan's Bordello", a services corporation in the Glorious Slave Country of Ross. |
