Nemesis Caesar (Little Upsilon) | Tuesday, January 5, 2010 - 12:05 pm I'm not Christian, I'm Proud an Load expressive atheist" What would the the god of Christianity Be seen as Villain or Hero if he came back as Christ Again we all or most of all know story told he was crucified for his secular liberal Radical view's just to be prayed on for everyone Redemption for scapegoat, Away from their personal Responsibility what would he be seen as, I believe his on would not accept him on second time around, Just because he would not endorse enough hell fire hate death or convert as Pope Pius said kill them an let god sort them out, no he would in company of the unrighteous sinners helping healing sick feeding poor an doing good work's, with out casting judgment, No people of today would stone him to death or give him over to capital punishment he would be seen as a radical liberal trying to secularize human civilization, P.S Open Discussion Not Agenda" Do we need to get ride of these liberal's Like Christ An Have firm Conservative Agenda through out all society's an annihilate other Deity God's like him these radical liberal secular agitator's as some would see them as are? cause every body to want to be love an free an accepted these are the kind of people that are setting liberal bias to any know agenda or anything know to be question does humanity need these lefty's as its said in media the gay's want to marriage, if so do we need to get rid of all the liberal bias author's an historical figures in bible on every thing on spoken about in the bible dealing with love accepted an not to judge an to love thy neighbor's or to denounce every historical figure an every liberal deity like Christ that would be perceived as a liberal heretic speeding their ideology of liberal bias an have their philosophy on issues love all no matter an love each other what an just get along an not to judge as Christ spoke of indirectly leave your comment, From, Nemesis Caesar |
Nemesis Caesar (Little Upsilon) | Tuesday, January 5, 2010 - 01:13 pm "Edit Version on Discussion" Do we need to get ride of these liberal's Like Christ An Have more of solid firm Conservative Agenda through out all society's an annihilate other Deity God's like these radical liberal secular agitator's as some would see them as are they cause every body to want to be love an free an accepted these are the kind of people that are setting liberal bias to any know agenda or anything know to be questioned does humanity need these lefty's as its said in media the gay's want to marriage, if so do we need to get rid of all the liberal bias author's an historical figures in bible on every thing on spoken about in the bible dealing with love accepted an not to judge an to love thy neighbor's or to denounce every historical figure in bible an every liberal deity like Christ that would be perceived as a liberal heretic speeding their ideology of liberal bias an have their philosophy on issues of love morality an to love each other no matter what an just get along an not to judge as Christ spoke of indirectly leave your comment, From, Nemesis Caesar |
Parsifal (Kebir Blue) | Tuesday, January 5, 2010 - 02:08 pm sounds like you might be setting yourself up as God. that's one of the problems with organized religion; humans co-opt God and set themselves up as the authorities and don't open up to God's love for all through Grace. there's two kinds of laws--our laws and God's laws. Jesus said, "I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it". i think what he was saying was that the Pharisee's had hundreds of laws that they had set up to control people and that there is a higher law that God has ordained that we may or may not live into. |
SaintAugustine (Little Upsilon) | Tuesday, January 5, 2010 - 04:15 pm The Problem of Evil How Can A Good God Allow Evil? The Problem of Evil - Introduction John Stott has said that "the fact of suffering undoubtedly constitutes the single greatest challenge to the Christian faith." It is unquestionably true that there is no greater obstacle to faith than that of the reality of evil and suffering in the world. Indeed, even for the believing Christian, there is no greater test of faith than this--that the God who loves him permits him to suffer, at times in excruciating ways. And the disillusionment is intensified in our day when unrealistic expectations of health and prosperity are fed by the teachings of a multitude of Christian teachers. Why does a good God allow his creatures, and even his children to suffer? First, it's important to distinguish between two kinds of evil: moral evil and natural evil. Moral evil results from the actions of free creatures. Murder, rape and theft are examples. Natural evil results from natural processes such as earthquakes and floods. Of course, sometimes the two are intermingled, such as when flooding results in loss of human life due to poor planning or shoddy construction of buildings. It's also important to identify two aspects of the problem of evil and suffering. First, there is the philosophical or apologetic aspect. This is the problem of evil approached from the standpoint of the skeptic who challenges the possibility or probability that a God exists who would allow such suffering. In meeting this apologetic challenge we must utilize the tools of reason and evidence in "giving a reason for the hope within us." (I Pet. 3:15) Second is the religious or emotional aspect of the problem of evil. This is the problem of evil approached from the standpoint of the believer whose faith in God is severely tested by trial. How can we love and worship God when He allows us to suffer in these ways? In meeting the religious/emotional challenge we must appeal to the truth revealed by God in Scripture. We will address both aspects of the problem of evil in this essay. It's also helpful to distinguish between two types of the philosophical or apologetic aspect of the problem of evil. The first is the logical challenge to belief in God. This challenge says it is irrational and hence impossible to believe in the existence of a good and powerful God on the basis of the existence of evil in the world. The logical challenge is usually posed in the form of a statement such as this: 1. A good God would destroy evil. 2. An all powerful God could destroy evil. 3. Evil is not destroyed. 4. Therefore, there cannot possibly be such a good and powerful God. It is logically impossible to believe that both evil, and a good and powerful God exist in the same reality, for such a God certainly could and would destroy evil. On the other hand, the evidential challenge contends that while it may be rationally possible to believe such a God exists, it is highly improbable or unlikely that He does. We have evidence of so much evil that is seemingly pointless and of such horrendous intensity. For what valid reason would a good and powerful God allow the amount and kinds of evil which we see around us? These issues are of an extremely important nature--not only as we seek to defend our belief in God, but also as we live out our Christian lives. The Logical Problem of Evil We have noted that there are two aspects of the problem of evil: the philosophical or apologetic, and the religious or emotional aspect. We also noted that within the philosophical aspect there are two types of challenges to faith in God: the logical and the evidential. David Hume, the eighteenth century philosopher, stated the logical problem of evil when he inquired about God, "Is He willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is impotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Whence then is evil?" (Craig, 80). When the skeptic challenges belief in God on the basis of the logical problem of evil, he is suggesting that it is irrational or logically impossible to believe in the existence of both a good and all powerful God and in the reality of evil and suffering. Such a God would not possibly allow evil to exist. The key to the resolution of this apparent conflict is to recognize that when we say God is all powerful, we do not imply that He is capable of doing anything imaginable. True, Scripture states that "with God all things are possible" (Mt. 19:26). But Scripture also states that there are some things God cannot do. For instance, God cannot lie (Tit. 1:2). Neither can He be tempted to sin, nor can He tempt others to sin (James 1:13). In other words, He cannot do anything that is "out of character" for a righteous God. Neither can He do anything that is out of character for a rational being in a rational world. Certainly even God cannot "undo the past," or create a square triangle, or make what is false true. He cannot do what is irrational or absurd. And it is on this basis that we conclude that God could not eliminate evil without at the same time rendering it impossible to accomplish other goals which are important to Him. Certainly, for God to create beings in his own image, who are capable of sustaining a personal relationship with Him, they must be beings who are capable of freely loving Him and following his will without coercion. Love or obedience on any other basis would not be love or obedience at all, but mere compliance. But creatures who are free to love God must also be free to hate or ignore Him. Creatures who are free to follow His will must also be free to reject it. And when people act in ways outside the will of God, great evil and suffering is the ultimate result. This line of thinking is known as the "free will defense" concerning the problem of evil. But what about natural evil--evil resulting from natural processes such as earthquakes, floods and diseases? Here it is important first to recognize that we live in a fallen world, and that we are subject to natural disasters that would not have occurred had man not chosen to rebel against God. Even so, it is difficult to imagine how we could function as free creatures in a world much different than our own--a world in which consistent natural processes allow us to predict with some certainty the consequences of our choices and actions. Take the law of gravity, for instance. This is a natural process without which we could not possibly function as human beings, yet under some circumstances it is also capable of resulting in great harm. Certainly, God is capable of destroying evil--but not without destroying human freedom, or a world in which free creatures can function. And most agree that this line of reasoning does successfully respond to the challenge of the logical problem of evil. The Evidential Problem of Evil While most agree that belief in a good and powerful God is rationally possible, nonetheless many contend that the existence of such a God is improbable due to the nature of the evil which we see in the world about us. They conclude that if such a God existed it is highly unlikely that He would allow the amount and intensity of evil which we see in our world. Evil which frequently seems to be of such a purposeless nature. This charge is not to be taken lightly, for evidence abounds in our world of evil of such a horrendous nature that it is difficult at times to fathom what possible purpose it could serve. However, difficult as this aspect of the problem of evil is, careful thinking will show that there are reasonable responses to this challenge. Surely it is difficult for us to understand why God would allow some things to happen. But simply because we find it difficult to imagine what reasons God could have for permitting them, does not mean that no such reasons exist. It is entirely possible that such reasons are not only beyond our present knowledge, but also beyond our present ability to understand. A child does not always understand the reasons that lie behind all that his father allows or does not allow him to do. It would be unrealistic for us to expect to understand all of God's reasons for allowing all that He does. We do not fully understand many things about the world we live in--what lies behind the force of gravity for instance, or the exact function of subatomic particles. Yet we believe in these physical realities. Beyond this, however, we can suggest possible reasons for God allowing some of the horrendous evils which do exist in our world. Perhaps there are people who would never sense their utter dependence on God apart from experiencing the intense pain that they do in life (Ps. 119:71). Perhaps there are purposes that God intends to accomplish among his angelic or demonic creatures which require his human creatures to experience some of the things that we do (Job 1-2). It may be that the suffering we experience in this life is somehow preparatory to our existence in the life to come (2 Cor. 4:16-18). Even apart from the revelation of Scripture, these are all possible reasons behind God's permission of evil. And at any rate, most people agree that there is much more good in the world than evil--at least enough good to make life well worth the living. In responding to the challenge to belief in God based on the intensity and seeming purposelessness of much evil in the world, we must also take into account all of the positive evidence that points to his existence: the evidence of design in nature, the historical evidence for the reliability of Scripture and of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. In light of the totality of the evidence, it certainly cannot be proven that there are no sufficient reasons for God's allowing the amount of evil that we see in the world...or even that it is improbable that such reasons exist. The Religious Problem of Evil - Part I But the existence of evil and suffering in our world poses more than a merely philosophical or apologetic problem. It also poses a very personal religious and emotional problem for the person who is enduring great trial. Although our painful experience may not challenge our belief that God exists, what may be at risk is our confidence in a God we can freely worship and love, and in whose love we can feel secure. Much harm can be done when we attempt to aid a suffering brother or sister by merely dealing with the intellectual aspects of this problem, or when we seek to find solace for ourselves in this way. Far more important than answers about the nature of God, is a revelation of the love of God--even in the midst of trial. And as God's children, it is not nearly as important what we say about God as what we do to manifest his love. First, it is evident from Scripture that when we suffer it is not unnatural to experience emotional pain, nor is it unspiritual to express it. It is noteworthy for instance that there are nearly as many psalms of lament as there are psalms of praise and thanksgiving, and these two sentiments are mingled together in many places (cf. Pss. 13, 88). Indeed, the psalmist encourages us to "pour out our hearts to God" (Ps. 62:8). And when we do, we can be assured that God understands our pain. Jesus Himself keenly felt the painful side of life. When John the Baptist was beheaded it is recorded that "He withdrew to a lonely place" obviously to mourn his loss (Mt. 14:13). And when his friend Lazarus died, it is recorded that Jesus openly wept at his tomb (Jn. 11:35). Even though He was committed to following the Father's will to the cross, He confessed to being filled with anguish of soul in contemplating it (Mt. 26:38). It is not without reason that Jesus was called "a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief" (Isa. 53:3); and we follow in his steps when we truthfully acknowledge our own pain. We cross the line, however, from sorrow to sin when we allow our grief to quench our faith in God, or follow the counsel that Job was offered by his wife when she told him to "curse God and die" (Job 2:9b). Secondly, when we suffer we should draw comfort from reflecting on Scriptures which assure us that God knows and cares about our situation, and promises to be with us to comfort and uphold us. The psalmist tells us that "the Lord is near to the brokenhearted" (Ps. 34:18), and that when we go through the "valley of the shadow of death" it is then that his presence is particularly promised to us (Ps. 23:4). Speaking through the prophet Isaiah, the Lord said, "Can a woman forget her nursing child, and have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget, but I will not forget you" (Isa. 49:15). He is more mindful of us than is a nursing mother toward her child! It is of the One whom we know as the "God of all comfort and Father of mercies" that Peter speaks when He bids us to cast our anxieties on Him, "for He cares for us" (1 Pet. 5:7). Our cares are his personal concern! The Religious Problem of Evil - Part II We noted that when suffering strikes it is neither unnatural to experience emotional pain, nor unspiritual to express it. But we also noted that when suffering strikes, we must be quick to reflect on the character of God and on the promises He gives to those who are enduring great trial. Now we want to focus on one of the great truths of God's Word--that even in severe trial God is working all things together for the good of those who love Him (Rom. 8:28). This is not at all to imply that evil is somehow good. But it does mean that we are to recognize that even in what is evil God is at work to bring about his good purposes in our lives. Joseph gave evidence of having learned this truth when after years of unexplained suffering due to the betrayal of his brothers, he was able to say to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:20). Though God did not cause his brothers to betray him, nonetheless He was able to use it in furthering his good intentions. This is the great hope we have in the midst of suffering, that in a way beyond our comprehension, God is able to turn evil against itself. And it is because of this truth that we can find joy even in the midst of sorrow and pain. The apostle Paul described himself as "sorrowful, yet always rejoicing" (2 Cor. 6:10). And we are counseled to rejoice in trial, not because the affliction itself is a cause for joy (it is not), but because in it God can find an occasion for producing what is good. What are some of those good purposes suffering promotes? For one, suffering can provide an opportunity for God to display his glory-- to make evident his mercy, faithfulness, power and love in the midst of painful circumstances (Jn. 9:1-3). Suffering can also allow us to give proof of the genuineness of our faith, and even serve to purify our faith (1 Pet. 1:7). As in the case of Job, our faithfulness in trial shows that we serve Him not merely for the benefits He offers, but for the love of God Himself (Job 1:9-11). Severe trial also provides an opportunity for believers to demonstrate their love for one another as members of the body of Christ who "bear one another's burdens" (1 Cor 12:26; Gal. 6:2). Indeed, as D.A. Carson has said, "experiences of suffering... engender compassion and empathy..., and make us better able to help others" (Carson, 122). As we are comforted by God in affliction, so we are better able to comfort others (2 Cor. 1:4). Suffering also plays a key role in developing godly virtues, and in deterring us from sin. Paul recognized that his "thorn in the flesh" served to keep him from boasting, and promoted true humility and dependence on God (2 Cor. 12:7). The psalmist recognized that his affliction had increased his determination to follow God's will (Ps. 119:71). Even Jesus "learned obedience from the things He suffered" (Heb. 5:8). As a man He learned by experience the value of submitting to the will of God, even when it was the most difficult thing in the world to do. Finally, evil and suffering can awaken in us a greater hunger for heaven, and for that time when God's purposes for these experiences will have been finally fulfilled, when pain and sorrow shall be no more (Rev. 21:4). |
SaintAugustine (Little Upsilon) | Tuesday, January 5, 2010 - 04:20 pm GOD'S EVIL PASSAGES IN SCRIPTURE: IS GOD GOOD OR EVIL? Those intimately acquainted with the Hebrew ("Old") Testament continually run into a perplexing problem. If God is supposed to be all good, why do we find passages where God commands and performs heinous acts, often mass slaughter, of human beings? God's commands like the following are quite common: "Now go and attack Amalek and utterly destroy all they have and do not spare them. Kill both man and women, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."(1 Sam. 15:3) (See also: Deut.2:30-35, 7:1-2, 7:16; Josh.6:21; 1Sam.6:19; Jer.13:14) God would even go so far as to "harden the hearts or souls" of the intended victims to provoke a reason to attack them. (Exod.4:21; Deut.30:31) If such savage aggression to others is not bad enough, God would also turn on his own people if they disobeyed, or sometimes on pure whim! Exodus 4: 24-25 has God lurking in the desert waiting to kill Moses for no known reason! Moses' wife's circumcising his son then pacifies God.(??!!) I believe this was the botched remnant of a myth depicting the first practice of circumcision among the Hebrews. But how do we explain away God's commanding his people to stone to death their dearest friends, their brothers, even their own children if they show curiosity about other gods? (Deut 13:6-11) How about:"So says the Lord: 'Behold, I frame evil against you and divise against you...'"(Jer 18:11) How can this dark side of God be explained? THE SOURCE OF DIVINE EVIL: The earliest Hebrew writings depicted no Devil or Demon of evil. ("the Satan" then was just God's errand boy.) Once polytheism was routed, God remained the sole Deity who was above good and evil, and the enactor of both. "No evil in this city is without God's will. "(Amos 3:6) " I make peace and I create evil. I the Lord do all these things."(Is. 45:7) "Out of the most high precedes both evil and good."(Lam. 3:38) How do we reconcile a God who is supposed all good with being the enactor of evil as well? First of all we must stop envisioning God literally as some Super Person in the sky with a mind like our own. We must periodically remind ourselves that the Bible is written in verse complete with all the imagery, metaphor and literary license poetry commands. The Bible itself periodically does that for us in the following passages: To even attempt to look upon the tremendous power of YWYH could mean instant death. (Exod. 33:20) Isaiah 42:8 states God will not share glory with images. Isaiah 44:20-40 and Psalms 115:4-8 state any images of God created by man are falsehoods. John 1:18 states human eyes have never seen God. John 5: 37 states you have never heard the voice or seen the shape of God. 1John 5:21 says to guard yourself from idols. 1Timothy 6:16 states no man has seen or can see God. So what we are dealing with in Scripture is an ancient human depiction of an all mighty power the writers themselves could not understand, and from which they tried to reconcile good and evil. The Kabbalah depicts the primordial Godhead as containing both good and evil, which separated out as this horrendous creative power unfolded into creation and finally into humankind. We now know the universe contains both law and chaos. From unspeakable devastation and chaos creation occurred. Our earth was finally formed as a sphere of molten lava, lightning streaked poison gasses, and exploding meteorites. Nothing indeed could gaze upon such power and live. But the power subdued itself to form life. And it then impartially rained and shined on the good and bad alike. The only emerging creatures who could willfully sin were human beings. They then through religion paid homage to the power that created them. Writers of Scripture were often inspired by seeking their source of creation in the profoundest depths of their being. In so doing some tapped into that source to find magnanimous love and compassion for their fellow beings. Hence we have the universal Golden Rule expounded by saints and sages of all great religions. However, some instead tapped into the dark side of humanity wherein lurks vengeance, power-lust, jealously, and greed. All this - the good and the bad - they projected onto the Power that created them. Those of us who adopt the dark side of Scripture to justify our own paranoia, bigotry, and hate only hasten the route to the Armageddon of man's collective evil in this shrinking world. Those who tap into the Scriptural strain revealing love and benevolence beyond the bounds of clan, tribe, and nation are now the only hope for humankind. The all mighty power will not interject. It now seems entirely up to us. So let us instead tap into the profounder source of benevolence beneath the humanly conceived specters of evil. SOURCE OF BENEVOLENCE IN HEBREW BIBLE: Lest we think the Hebrew Bible contains mostly malevolent acts of God, we should understand it is also the original source of benevolent passages in the New Testament. Loving your neighbor as yourself originated in Exodus 23:9 and Deuteronomy 6:4. Mercy on your enemy is first found in Proverbs 24:17 and 25:21-22. Blessed be the meek originates in Proverbs 29:23. So as stated in Psalms 34:14: "Depart form evil and do good. Seek ye peace and pursue it.... |
SaintAugustine (Little Upsilon) | Tuesday, January 5, 2010 - 04:48 pm The Grand Fonality of Religeous Doctern Reading the comments on my previous post, it appears that some people are in doubt as to how the Bible says one should treat their own children. One commenter "highly doubt[s] God would condone murdering a 19 month old baby for not saying AMEN" and that I should reread the Bible, praying before and after every single passage. Someone else complained about verses being taken "out of context" and a third just said that she doesn't "live by Old Testament ways," despite Jesus's firm command to the contrary. One of the many cultural myths with which I would like to do away is the notion that the Bible is somehow a sturdy moral foundation for our lives, particularly where families are concerned. To that end, I have compiled ten of the meatiest verses from both Hebrew and Christian Testament on the treatment of child and family. Of course, as these are the rules of an extinct ancient theocracy and not a modern society, they are appropriately barbaric. They are so over-the-top crazy that no sane person should assent to them, and I sincerely doubt any "Biblical literalists" are so evil as to obey them, if they are even aware of them: 10. God deems it good to punish Babylon by smashing her infant children to bits on the street, so right off the rod we know that the slaughter of children cannot be a priori an evil thing in Biblical morality. (Isaiah 13:16; note that this is an edit from before, see comments) 9. Jesus himself will cause your family and your household to be torn apart, so now we also know that it can't be a priori an evil thing to ruin families in Biblical morality. (Luke 21:16) 8. The sexual enslavement of thousands of children (32,000, to be exact) is OK, as long as God has already told you to murder their families, so we also know that neither genocide or the sexual torture of children is a priori an evil deed in Biblical morality. (Numbers 31:17-18) 7. If you mock or disobey your parents, the birds-of-prey will devour your eyes right out of your head, so the disfigurement of your own children also cannot be a sin. (Proverbs 30:17) 6. If a ruthless dictator doesn't manumit his slaves at the request of a single random soothsayer, the morally good response is to murder the children of everyone in the nation, even if they have never even heard of Moses or his god, so for the Bible moralist it is morally good to punish people for deeds in which they took no part. (Exodus 12:29) 5. A superficial (read: literal) reading of the story of the binding of Isaac makes it clear that your moral duty to obey a pernicious command from above far outweighs any love you might have for your own offspring. In Bible ethics, then, standing up for your own bloodline is not a priori a morally good action. (Genesis 22:2-13) 4. If children make fun of your bald head, the appropriate response is to have them massacred by bears. This way, we know that in Biblical morality, punishments need no proportion to the crimes. (2nd Kings 2:23) 3. If you don't hate your mom, your dad, your siblings, your children, and yourself, Jesus is wrong for you. So in Biblical morality, a cohesive family unit is a moral aberration. (Luke 14:26) 2. If a child is disobedient and doesn't listen to his parents, have the entire town get together and execute him The Lottery-style. There is no exception made here for "19 month old babies who don't say AMEN." (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) 1. And of course the most famous father-son relationship in the Bible is God's own: God loves us so much that he would torture and murder his own son to save us from God's own wrath. So, we have learned (1) that the murder, torture, rape, disfigurement, and ritual execution of children is morally permissible in certain cases, (2) the very existence of a loving family structure is morally impermissible, and (3) and annihilation of entire cultures is OK so long as the young children are spared to fulfill the victors' sexual lust. All this is the case, unless either God is not good, or God is not the author of the Bible. We are very fortunate indeed, then, that virtually all so-called "Biblical literalists" are either unaware of or too morally good to follow the commands to slaughter and torture written about in the Bible. While I have a great deal to say on this question, particular on the pertinence of these arguments to the Euthyphro Dilemma, I feel the point has been made so I will let it rest for now. Questions? |